Fungus gnats or WINGED ROOT APHIDS???

[HooT]

I am Happy yet PISSED I found this thread!

I am Happy yet PISSED I found this thread!

First of all, this is my first post (and hopefully not my last) here on the site. And fortunately I am lucky enough to have a group of individuals so dedicated to researching and posting any and all of their findings. I am an OverGrow refugey and ever since that whole episode I have not set foot in any forum, specificly because I felt I had my sytems and genes down pat. Well, obviously I am here now after fighting this battle which I was fortunatly made aware of from all you fine growers and a good friend of mine in Cali who I recently had a conversation with.
Well as you all know how the story goes, Lockouts and def. kept showing their faces and after 6 months of chasing ph and cal/mag issues, I was going to give up. Then, a conversation forever changed my life. Which inturn led me here where I have diagnosed my problem. Micros and those little reddish crabs. I found this to be odd seeing that I am on the East coast and thought this was largely a Cali problem so I never gave it much thought. I have also always battled fungus nats my entire 6 years of gardening because they fucking love that coco staying a bit moist on a drip. But then after researching this thread and forum I have relized that the nats that I was seeing(starting 6 months ago) that seemed a bit odd were in fact these winged aphids. Then as maney have speculated, the diseases and viruses associated with these little beast have made it nearly impossible for me to keep my lovely young ladies alive.
Since, I have taken many different approaches and have taken hold of this worthy foe, but have decided it is best to take cuts off the two moms that are the hardiest and trash all. I can't leave this area so I am forced to sanitize and clean, which I still understand can lead to reinfestations so this is my last attempt before I put away my equipment and give up for good.
This leads me to my question, which is. What concoction can I dip my clones in and rapid rooters so I know they are bug/disease free? I dont have the luxery of getting new genes so this is my only choise. I will also be changing from coco on a drip to perlite on a drip which I have done succesfull maney of times. I just love that coco but it seems like they just love that shit too. I also think sometimes that they come in the coco bricks, but thats just a thought. I also was very fond of my micro herds compared to sterile but I am going the H2o2 and sm-90 route again. But again, what can I use as a dip for the clones that wont kill the clones?
Thanks again for all your help and time it took to do all of this. Sorry for writing a ton of shit but this is the first time like I had a chance in this fight that I didn't even know I was fighting. Its was like trying to fix an engine problem by changing the tire over and over and over and over. Anyway, good luck too all of you who are in this fight.

HooT

 

[stickey fingers]

i used bayer fruit and citrus 1tsp per gallon, for the first time in many years no more flying bugs and my plants over all health has improved,it cost $20,my concern of the bayer line up was the duration of risdule
chems.i guess like mites,treat as needed

RIP DR JAY,JACK HERRER

 

[RetroGrow]

About cuts: if indeed these pests introduced a virus/disease to your plants, the cuts will also be infected. Happened to me. I took clones, they rooted quickly, went green and a week later went down hill and had to be destroyed. I just destroyed all my plants and threw out all medium.
However, if it is "only" root aphids, then you can dip your cuts in an imid solution as described in the thread or using instructions on bottle. Check the photo in my album regarding what to buy (there are other options, but this works).
This can be extremely frustrating. Ruined my last 2 grows.
You are doing the right thing by trashing your plants and everything else (medium). Sterilize everything you have with physan 20. Vacuum and clean as best you can.
And I'm on the east coast too, so definitely not a regional problem. These things could come in soil or coco. No one knows for sure.
Good luck.
By the way, you can safely buy more seeds on the Seed Boutique. Haven't failed me yet.

 

[spleebale]

Hoot: that sucks huge ass. Can't tell you how much your story sounds like mine. Don't want to admit how much money I have thrown at the problem (almost completely frivolously) and do not really even want to think about how much this ordeal has cost me in potential (what I COULD have had).

As for going the perlite-drip keepin'-it-clean route: I HIGHLY advise against this. Yes, the bugs do seem to love coco - it is also possible that they are actually coming from products but I have seen them outside and many others have reported the same and the more research I do the more I find there are tons of types of root aphids and they affect all ranges of plants and live all over - yet somehow the growing community seems to just be rapidly learning about them.

I do not believe that it is the coco as much as moisture that the RAs seem to thrive on (and that seems to amplify the harm associated with them).. People in soil and people in coco have done very well with RAs by just letting it dry out more; with perlite you do not really have this option as they can not be left to dry long. It seems like letting soil/soil-less media dry out by only watering lightly every other day is the most common preventative measure and it seems that people with wet systems (hydroton etc) have had the worst problems - this was the case for me. I tried Hydroton, Perlite (alone), Coco Croutons, and Coco Croutons + Perlite seperately and had about the same degree of problem with them. I got them to turn around and not die, but I think it had a lot to do with inoculating w/ beneficials.

Also: "keeping the roots clean" will only work if there are NO RAs - otherwise they will cause lesions on the root that will invite pathogens (that cannot easily be stopped by any additives I have tried; Zone, H2O2, Hygrozyme, SM90).and the lesions will not heal. In this case (fighting RAs and the pathogens and disease they bring) many things about using organics and natural approaches seems to be the main solution.

Remember: I continue to supply two completely separate people [don't know each other] with plants who both continue to have excellent harvests. I have warned them about RAs and neither seem worried. They know nothing of "fliers" and "crabs" and "phantom deficiency" and don't think of using any sorts of pesticides in their roots. They simply grow the way they always do with the plants I supply them (often which have been growing up in the same area as my own) and while mine continue to have all range of problems and I can barely pull a harvest at all, they aren't battling anything and get great results. One uses 5-gal bags of FFOF w/ Advanced Nutes, the other uses coco w/ lots of organics and a bit of regular fertilizer and a few other additives.

I think that many natural elements can deter RAs: there are fungi and bacteria which can kill them, predatory nematodes kill them, dry conditions kill them or limit population growth. When you grow soil or coco it is easy to take advantage of any of these. When you grow hydro you basically throw them out the window.

Additionally I believe it is important to keep the root zone healthy (not just "clean") and I think that using beneficial microorganisms is almost always the best way to do that (I think that some deter or even kill RAs, they help repair root damage, protect damaged roots and extend the functionality of damaged roots). I think that if you have the potential of roots being lesioned and poisoned with toxic slime and infected with pathogens, that having beneficial root colonization is going to be hands down better than trying to keep killing all RAs and any infections they may be carrying. I am not sure - I have not done thorough side-by-sides, but that was my experience after doing (attempting) multiple runs with RAs and infection trying to run the expensive "cleaner" chems above. (Though I still think Hygrozyme is a member of the A-list of top products for dealing with root issues)

This leads me to my next post, which I will do separately because it is distinct form this response. I do not have time for it now but it starts like this: I purchased a mini 60-100X scope and am almost unhappy I did. I did not find a single RA on any of the many leaves I examined... what I did find, however, was many different things - some which mostly perplexed me - none of which seemed good. At this point I am strongly re-embracing RGs suggestion that perhaps this is a fungal infection (a lot of that bad leaf necrosis - for those of you that are having similar problems). I think I have the RAs down to few on most plants (I have sifted through soil and also pulled individuals out of keg-cups to scope the roots) and almost nil in a few systems, but I still have a very rampant outbreak of different sorts of necrosis which I no longer attribute to damage relayed to the leaves as directly caused by RAs at the roots. Rather, I think that any number of factors that stress plants provide for opportunistic pathogens to take hold. I am now looking at the necrosis as most commonly being an acute outbreak rather than a plant response (where I had thought of it before as the plant consuming its own leaf, now I am thinking it is something else damaging and consuming the leaf).More later. If you have problems you still can't explain, get a 50X+ magnification scope - you may find things you will wish you hadn't.

-WB

 

[rooring husky]

I usually a browser on here and rarely post on ic but these root aphids have gotten the best of me...

In the past I have tried everything from Azamax, Neem Oil, Fogger Bombs, SM-90, Hydrozyme, and a few more I cant remember off the top of my head...

I have given up my past two DWC grows to these persistent pests...

My last grow I treated my plants w/ Bayer (imid) as directed by someone on the forum (not sure who)...but the results were not good..I ended up scrapping my second grow due to these guys...

I have cleaned my DWC setups with Physan 20, and bleach, and Clearex solution, and am ready to battle again...

I have acquired quite a few cuts for my next run from sources which I am pretty sure are prone to these same problems...

My question is this...like a few others who have posted above me..

What should I do to take care of these babies to ensure no hitches throughout their lifetime?? (what precautions should I take)

In case it makes any difference...I am running a RDWC with 18 buckets with about ~75-80 gallons of water...The room has 3 x 1000w air cooled lights...room temp is controlled @ 72 degrees...humidity is controlled @ 40-45...co2 is on controller at 1400 ppm...

I use mostly the Botanicare line of products with the DWC...I have a bunch of clones that are about 6-8" rooted in 3" rockwool cubes..I am getting ready to put these to the DWC and wanted to treat them before or know what steps to take after initial treatment..

Thanks in advance to spleebale, Greyskull, Ganja Goddess (I am having very similar results to you), Retrogrow, and everyone else who has helped me and the community out...Much love

 

[Neo 420]

First of all, this is my first post (and hopefully not my last) here on the site. And fortunately I am lucky enough to have a group of individuals so dedicated to researching and posting any and all of their findings. I am an OverGrow refugey and ever since that whole episode I have not set foot in any forum, specificly because I felt I had my sytems and genes down pat. Well, obviously I am here now after fighting this battle which I was fortunatly made aware of from all you fine growers and a good friend of mine in Cali who I recently had a conversation with.
Well as you all know how the story goes, Lockouts and def. kept showing their faces and after 6 months of chasing ph and cal/mag issues, I was going to give up. Then, a conversation forever changed my life. Which inturn led me here where I have diagnosed my problem. Micros and those little reddish crabs. I found this to be odd seeing that I am on the East coast and thought this was largely a Cali problem so I never gave it much thought. I have also always battled fungus nats my entire 6 years of gardening because they fucking love that coco staying a bit moist on a drip. But then after researching this thread and forum I have relized that the nats that I was seeing(starting 6 months ago) that seemed a bit odd were in fact these winged aphids. Then as maney have speculated, the diseases and viruses associated with these little beast have made it nearly impossible for me to keep my lovely young ladies alive.
Since, I have taken many different approaches and have taken hold of this worthy foe, but have decided it is best to take cuts off the two moms that are the hardiest and trash all. I can't leave this area so I am forced to sanitize and clean, which I still understand can lead to reinfestations so this is my last attempt before I put away my equipment and give up for good.
This leads me to my question, which is. What concoction can I dip my clones in and rapid rooters so I know they are bug/disease free? I dont have the luxery of getting new genes so this is my only choise. I will also be changing from coco on a drip to perlite on a drip which I have done succesfull maney of times. I just love that coco but it seems like they just love that shit too. I also think sometimes that they come in the coco bricks, but thats just a thought. I also was very fond of my micro herds compared to sterile but I am going the H2o2 and sm-90 route again. But again, what can I use as a dip for the clones that wont kill the clones?
Thanks again for all your help and time it took to do all of this. Sorry for writing a ton of shit but this is the first time like I had a chance in this fight that I didn't even know I was fighting. Its was like trying to fix an engine problem by changing the tire over and over and over and over. Anyway, good luck too all of you who are in this fight.

HooT

What I think is really crazy is when you have RA infected plants with "the virus" once you treat the ladies for RA, the virus seems to go into hyper-drive.

Everyone
Now on to business:

I just want to make certain I am taking the right steps in maintaining a grow room post-RA (with the suspected "virus")

1 Sterilize all materials (tables, growing mediums, drip lines etc) with Physan-20 (What about fans, carbon scrubbers, hoods, table stands? Should I have the carpets cleaned or steamed? If I need to I will but it will set me back in plans and provide me with plenty work Any other info surrounding "cleaning" would be helpful)

2 Once new plants are introduced into the environment, use Bayer fruit and citrus at 1tsp per gallon into their nutes, flush three days later and continue with normal feeding regiment. (Plants will still be in veg)

3 Mother should be reinoculated every 2 or 3 months with the same quantity of Bayer fruit and citrus (I am not sure on the duration, Any advice?)

Questions I have:
Should clones taken from a inoculated mom be treated as already inoculated?

My room has been down since my whole episode but I have friend that is vegging some mom's and babies for me. I will receive them on Wednesday and will hit them with the Bayer immediately. I want to be sure I am doing what is right...

 

[Greyskull]

Merit is much stronger and much more expensive, so I don't see the advantage of using it.

well i dont want to just barely kill the worst fucking pest ive ever come across i want to fucking send the fuckers to hell in a hand basket. i want to be sure there is no resistance to eradication efforts. but thats just me. i dont like pussyfooting around.

that, AND the folks who recommended using merit 75wp for treatment of root aphids on cannabis plants specifically are from ucdavis' plant biology department thank you ... they told us full strength and didn't mention anything about it lingering in the plants - just use ONLY in veg on our cannabis plants.

price-point wise im pretty sure that dose for dose/gallon for gallon a single 2oz jar of merit 75wp at the label recommended 1tsp/10g is less expensive to use vs the bayer products... and thats not even considering possiblity of 'cutting' the dosage of the merit if one was leary of unleashing the full fury of root aphid removal to possibly achieve even more aphid killing fun per $$$ spent. but thats being really nit picky.

one could purchase a 2oz jar of merit 75wp and via ebay or whathaveyou sell individual prepacked 1tsp/10g doses at a few $$$ each similiar to what some folks do with floramite sc to help recoup the initial purchase costs of the jar if funds are really that tight. just an idea.

 

[RetroGrow]

well i dont want to just barely kill the worst fucking pest ive ever come across i want to fucking send the fuckers to hell in a hand basket. i want to be sure there is no resistance to eradication efforts. but thats just me. i dont like pussyfooting around.

that, AND the folks who recommended using merit 75wp for treatment of root aphids on cannabis plants specifically are from ucdavis' plant biology department thank you ... they told us full strength and didn't mention anything about it lingering in the plants - just use ONLY in veg on our cannabis plants.

price-point wise im pretty sure that dose for dose/gallon for gallon a single 2oz jar of merit 75wp at the label recommended 1tsp/10g is less expensive to use vs the bayer products... and thats not even considering possiblity of 'cutting' the dosage of the merit if one was leary of unleashing the full fury of root aphid removal to possibly achieve even more aphid killing fun per $$$ spent. but thats being really nit picky.

one could purchase a 2oz jar of merit 75wp and via ebay or whathaveyou sell individual prepacked 1tsp/10g doses at a few $$$ each similiar to what some folks do with floramite sc to help recoup the initial purchase costs of the jar if funds are really that tight. just an idea.

I don't have any problem with using Merit. If I had a greenhouse full of plants, I would be all over it, but for me, just a small hobby grower, the Bayer bottle I have will be all I ever need (fingers crossed). I know for certain it killed all bugs on my mother plant, because I cut it down and checked the roots with a scope, and there was nothing living in the roots or medium. If there were some way I could inflict more pain or suffering on these bastards, I would, but dead is dead. I would like to torture each one individually.
I don't know where they came from initially, but in my case, it definitely wasn't from a cut. They had to come in some soil or medium, I believe, unless the fliers just come in the window! They probably hone in on the smell of vegitation!

 

[RetroGrow]

What I think is really crazy is when you have RA infected plants with "the virus" once you treat the ladies for RA, the virus seems to go into hyper-drive.

Everyone
Now on to business:

I just want to make certain I am taking the right steps in maintaining a grow room post-RA (with the suspected "virus")

1 Sterilize all materials (tables, growing mediums, drip lines etc) with Physan-20 (What about fans, carbon scrubbers, hoods, table stands? Should I have the carpets cleaned or steamed? If I need to I will but it will set me back in plans and provide me with plenty work Any other info surrounding "cleaning" would be helpful)

2 Once new plants are introduced into the environment, use Bayer fruit and citrus at 1tsp per gallon into their nutes, flush three days later and continue with normal feeding regiment. (Plants will still be in veg)

3 Mother should be reinoculated every 2 or 3 months with the same quantity of Bayer fruit and citrus (I am not sure on the duration, Any advice?)

Questions I have:
Should clones taken from a inoculated mom be treated as already inoculated?

My room has been down since my whole episode but I have friend that is vegging some mom's and babies for me. I will receive them on Wednesday and will hit them with the Bayer immediately. I want to be sure I am doing what is right...

If you think your plants also aquired a virus that would be passed on in any cuts. No cuts should be taken from infected plants. They must be destroyed.
Also consider that these RAs may transmit pythium or fusarium, and now we are talking about spores. Some pythium spores can dry and can survive indefinitely. They are microscopic and can travel through your venting and be anywhere. So your "cleanup" becomes more difficult in that case.
I think steaming carpets, etc, is a good idea.
I would also spray everything down with physan 20 after cleaning and vacuuming as best as possible. I sprayed my floors, carpets, walls, my entire bathroom...everything. Physan kills pretty much everything...it is nasty stuff. Sterilize all scissors, blades, tools, etc. in alcohol followed by physan.
Hepa filters on your air conditioning can trap airborne particles (spores). They cost more but are worth it. They sell them in every grocery store...I think 3M makes them.
They are $25-$30, as opposed to $5-$8 for a "normal" filter.
I also bought a negative ion generator which keeps particles out of the air. It also has air filtration with a hepa filter. Mine is a Kenmore. You can buy them at Sears.
Keep your air as clean as possible!
Inoculate your roots with trichoderma and Mycostop. These will colonize the roots, and prevent other pathogens from taking hold. I picked up some mycostop and some Great White, which has trichoderma and about a hundred other beneficials. The mycostop prevents fusarium and pythium from taking hold, and it also nourishes the roots, promoting growth.
About your clones: if they don't have any bugs on them, you are good, if they haven't been taken from a mom with a virus.

 

[Greyskull]

If I had a greenhouse full of plants, I would be all over it, but for me, just a small hobby grower, the Bayer bottle I have will be all I ever need (fingers crossed)....

fingers crossed huh?

im a little more vested in my garden - my family doesnt eat if my flowers arent rocking. and im not knocking you - just using our grow situations as reference points for others to consider. but i didnt/dont find it an issue to spend the extra $20-$30 for absolute peace of mind

i hope the bayer works for you.

 

[Greyskull]

Now on to business:

I just want to make certain I am taking the right steps in maintaining a grow room post-RA (with the suspected "virus")

1 Sterilize all materials (tables, growing mediums, drip lines etc) with Physan-20 (What about fans, carbon scrubbers, hoods, table stands? Should I have the carpets cleaned or steamed? If I need to I will but it will set me back in plans and provide me with plenty work Any other info surrounding "cleaning" would be helpful)

i didnt have to do any carpet steaming or any of that stuff... the imid is a systemic so any aphids not immediately killed by the drench (becasue they were hiding on the floor or under a leaf) the moment they take a bite of the plant they will be poisoned and die.

2 Once new plants are introduced into the environment, use Bayer fruit and citrus at 1tsp per gallon into their nutes, flush three days later and continue with normal feeding regiment. (Plants will still be in veg)

i dont think you'll need to flush it out but you can - i didnt. once the treated plants are ready for more food ill give it to them

3 Mother should be reinoculated every 2 or 3 months with the same quantity of Bayer fruit and citrus (I am not sure on the duration, Any advice?)

since the imid is systemic for a period of i believe 50 days i dont see why there would be a problem hitting the moms every couple of months...

Questions I have:
Should clones taken from a inoculated mom be treated as already inoculated?

no they should be treated as "not vaccinated" imo. me personally, im gonna be hitting all my vegging clones with a dose of merit before i bump them out of the 18oz cups into their final homes for flower. better to be safe than sorry.

My room has been down since my whole episode but I have friend that is vegging some mom's and babies for me. I will receive them on Wednesday and will hit them with the Bayer immediately. I want to be sure I am doing what is right...

good luck man!

 

[subrob]

I also feel lucky to have found this thread! thank you greyskull! i have evidentally had these for a FEW MONTHS now...thought they were just gnats...but thanks to greyskull and caligreens' eyes i know now i have them...how i got them is a complete mystery to me...could they have come on UNROOTED cuts? i wouldnt think so...anyways...i will be getting some of the merit...my problem is i am in perpetual harvest...obviously the more mature plants cant take anything(oddly enough i have a couple plants that have infestation and a couple in there w them for a loong time that dont seem to be infected)...if i use the merit on flowering plants under 15 days, that i take to 70-75 days do you think this is a danger to the smoke? when i use it on the veg plants(only have to use as a drench once as i understand it) will i have to worry bout current little bastards in the flower tent flying over and dropping eggs into the treated veg plants? or is it a one and done thing? can i get rid of them gradually? any advice appreciated. big props to OP for the thread...reminds me of why i am still here! haha

 

[HooT]

A question.... on the first page of this thread were the pics of the bugs are, mainly the one that was a little red pill looking bug that was said to be easily seen with the eye, was this identified as actually being an RA ? I have these aswell and thought these were the crabs. Now I'm not sure. I have looked at them 40x and can not see the two spikes on their ass. There are the big ones of these and mini verions of these.

 

[HooT]

It was the one near the bottom of the first post.

 

[RetroGrow]

i hope the bayer works for you.

There isn't any question that the Bayer works.
100% death rate pretty much says it all.
Same active ingredient = same result.
Either one will kill them, along with the Ortho product which has imid.
Merit worth the money for you if you are commercial. Bayer a bit easier to handle for the smaller grower.

 

[subrob]

^^^forgive me retro, i did not read the whole thread...i have a small garden and i have some pots that have been infected for couple months, still alive...think the bayer would be good enough to treat the rest of em? or because of time frame they have been potentially exposed should i go with the hardcore stuff in your experience?

 

[smokesalot420]

If it were me I would use the Merit if I were trying to get rid of a heavy infestation, didn't have the option of cutting back to clones and was still in veg.

If I was trying to use as a preventative (which I suggest and am doing from now on) I would go with the Bayer products. I would also go with the Bayer if I was close to flowering or just flipping to 12/12.

On a side note: bought my 35 percent H202 and will be doing experiments on any infected plants I find as I hope it will help with the aphids, the waxy build-up they secrete, and the potential viruses/diseases they cause or spread. I will update as soon as I have some results....

 

[Neo 420]

ok guys.

Today at Igrow (which I hate) they threw a 420 party. I met a dude there who sold me a bubba kush mom in dirt for a cant turn down price. He even threw in some bud from previous clones. I'm treating it in 20 min with the bayer. What i liked was he said gave the mom brewed teas every other week. Never played with soil before. So I am about to do the 1 tsp/ per gallon with no nutes. Wish me luck!!!

 

[rooring husky]

Good luck!

and please post on here an update within the next week or so (and results weeks after that which are the most important!!)

I have a new set of clones and have been holding off treating them with imid since my last run went bad after treating them...I am going to treat these clones by feeding with bayer imid a day or so before the resorvoir change. Last time I left the imid in the res too long and I think thats what ended up killing them too...

Also please chime in if anyone has fed their plants imid in veg and have finished the whole flowering period on what the FINAL results were as far as bud quality and plant resilience during the grow..

 

[Neo 420]

This maybe a dumb question but do I PH the water? ANd what is the PH for dirt?