Fungus gnats or WINGED ROOT APHIDS???

[Hmong]

I've read about 80% of the 150+ pages and here's what I've decided to do. All my plants are still in veg state and I'm growing entirely in Coco.

So then you know to allways check your packed substrate or at least give it some heat treatment bevore using.
I am now officially in war with these f***ers!

yesterday i spotted one in the closet where i store my coco bricks & RW cubes. Which made my alarm bells ring and i checked the substrate. they keep to impose me more and more, since they seem to be unexterminable. I found some in the sealed coco bricks indeed.

My plants are not quite as well as they should be to continue flower production to archieve a decent yield. I am @ day 31 of 55 and they overall had serious defficiencies of everything even before treatment but now things look kind a worse because i didnt't feed them after the insectizide application. but i still think they can't uptake nutes in the following days because of the stress, leaf loss, aphid damage and first of all the poison. imho there is limited root surface availiable so the absorbtion of a systemic insectizide may be corrupted by to much other stuff in the solution?!?
I did 2 foiliar sprays with the special foilar nutes so far and i see a differece. the green leafes are now much greener but the yellowded fanleafes cant be safed i guess.

I decided to ice hash my whole harvest, since i used neem + phyrethrine, which may stick an the buds in traces. But so far I am nut sure if they will frost up enough to make it worth the work?

I don't plan any treatment for this run further but i still have em in Veg on the 20 Seedlings I wanted to use for the next. just spotted them before. they are still in the "crab" stage so no adults so far but i think I also may saw one or two flyers but they could be gnats, I also saw one at least during the whole cleaning marathon.
sticky trabs are still clean so it stays suspenseful.

Finally I found my source for Imidachlophrid.
So for all european guys, you might check for Bayer Contifor WG70. It's 500g of 70% imid powder but costs ~400€
For now I am not desperate enough for this investment in poison but its allways better to know than not to know.
I also found 2 products for domestic use, Bayer Provago 5 WG (5% imid) and Lizentan (2,5% only as spray aviliable)

But I am not sure if these products are still availiable because of a EU regulation from Oct 2013 that banned Imid products.

anyway I really apprecciate the share of information here
and wish all of you good luck!!!

PS: Does anyone know how to resize pics in the post? i tried "width =" in pixel and % but html does not seem to work as I am html noob too^^

 

[DeceiverZ]

But I am not sure if these products are still availiable because of a EU regulation from Oct 2013 that banned Imid products.

Europe bans Imid products? This seems quite significant IMO. I'm not entirely convinced this is a safe product to use and I've read numerous conflicting reports regarding the half-life of Imid.

Some say 30 days, others 990 days or some extreme number so it's hard to say whether this is a good poison to use for a product humans will eventually consume.

Just because some people choose to use Imid products 30 days before harvest doesn't mean its a good idea. Some products contain smaller concentrations (Bayer 1.77%) and Merit 75 WSP (75%) concentration.

Isn't anyone else concerned about using systemic Imid on a plant which will be consumed by humans?

-DZ

 

[Hmong]

Something went wrong with my first pic obviously, I'm sorry for that but I hate it not to be able to edit my posts! damn it

 

[Pepe le skunk]

Was reading a little about Nuke em and it says to use regular strength mix at 5 oz to a gallon and pour at the root ball and stem to attack the coloney under and in the root ball. It has no pesticides and is mostly citric acid. Safe in flower up to day of harvest. Will report back findings.
Anyone else use FFOF and have these root bastards? Might help identify the source.

 

[Granger2]

Pepe,
The first time I saw RA's was in a pot of FF Happy Frog potting soil. I did 2 apps of Nuke'm following the instructions Eggs Ackley. Seemed to have no effect whatsoever. Might work on mites or other pests, but I'll never waste my money on Nuke'm again. Good luck. -granger

 

[Hmong]

Isn't anyone else concerned about using systemic Imid on a plant which will be consumed by humans?

-DZ

I totaly support that!

Yesterday i did a little research after i red your post.
I fund a lot an posted it but the admin deleted my post
I am not gonna write everything again.

Just check this table I think the results are quite realistic and independent.




cheerz -Hmong

 

[Canniwhatsis]

Neem oil, same dilution that I foliar spray with for mites,... Just pulled plants out of the pots and sprayed the root ball. Then hosed the topsoil down and watered it in.

Next day lots of dead RA, continued application every few days for a couple weeks, haven't seen em since!

No imid, no nasty chemicals or poisons.

 

[symbiote420]

Don't know if anyone's posted this yet but Orthene's half life is extended or decreased by the pH of the water you mix it with ........the lower the pH the half life is extended in the soil, for that 14 day half life the Orthene/Acephate needs to be mixed with pH 9 water. Lower water pH extends it but it didn't last past 40 - 45 days. After learning this and upon further examination of my plants I believe the pH of my mix probably was screwed up after applying it ....I'll check the pH of the solution next time and use on a few plants to see if they'll burn the same way.

 

[xxxstr8edgexxx]

Don't know if anyone's posted this yet but Orthene's half life is extended or decreased by the pH of the water you mix it with ........the lower the pH the half life is extended in the soil, for that 14 day half life the Orthene/Acephate needs to be mixed with pH 9 water. Lower water pH extends it but it didn't last past 40 - 45 days. After learning this and upon further examination of my plants I believe the pH of my mix probably was screwed up after applying it ....I'll check the pH of the solution next time and use on a few plants to see if they'll burn the same way.

I have a theory regarding the burn.exposure to alkaline substances seems to cause a fast reaction causing noxious off gassing of sulfur nitrogen and phosphorous. could lime, perlite or other very alkaline components in soil mixes be causing a reaction in soil gardens leaving pure coco gardens safe from such issues? i noticed the bare root dips and coco plugs didnt react but the plants in soil and rockwool did the worst in regards to the burn. just a thought.

 

[symbiote420]

You might be on to something, my bro hit his plants and confirms the same observations. I have a few bags of Canna I was gonna add to my custom mix ......think I should start the next wave of cuts in straight coco to treat a few times in early veg before switching em (2 wks before 12/12) into their finally pots of amended soil?

And just to update the progress I haven't found any crawlers or flyers after I put out new sticky traps 2 weeks ago and they're still clear!!! I'm running Cap's Foliar 2x a week again too at full strength till about June ....f*** it, I gotta make sure these bastards are gone for good this time.

 

[EclipseFour20]

That may make sense--the ph thing & orthene. My soil mix has a higher ph than most--which may explain why some users (me) experienced zero leaf burn while others (symbiote420) did. The PH level for my tap water hovers around 8 and my soil starts off just under 7.

Pesticide and soil leaching (dunking/drenching) can accelerate the natural decline of the soil's PH...at least that is what smarter people than me have concluded.

Why did I select Orthene? Because one of the top entomologists around (Ray Cloyd) said it was one of the few pesticides tested that was nearly 100% effective against RAs. Read the first paragraph on the second page under "RESULTS" of the attached pdf file...and notice the date of the article (RAs have been around for a while!).

Why did I select Riptide? Orthene alone sometimes would take 2-3 days for 100% eradication, but when a Pyrethrine product was added...zero RAs--immediately. Riptide is one of the few "oil-less water soluble" pyrethrine products available that IS ALSO about half the cost of the more traditional pyrethrine insecticide products marketed for gardening. PBO is a synergist that allows me to get more "bang" while using less poison.

Perhaps adjusting the amount of Orthene might be the answer for those with lower PH (soil and water). But bear in mind, when I had RAs...it was a major infestation and my original dosage amounts is how I achieved 100% eradication without plant loss...and probably with higher PH.

Based on what we know now...perhaps using Orthene at 1-2 grams per gallon for those with low PH (water and/or soil) might be the answer.

BTW...think clean room (lab coats, hair nets, booties) and sanitize everything--tools, all containers, replace bamboo stakes with plastic, steam clean the corners of your grow room, walls & floors scrubbed with bleach & soapy water, etc. Contamination...and cross-contamination is how RAs spread. Eventually you will win and enjoy life without RAs but it takes a one-two punch to do it...and it has been years since I have seen the lil buggers!

Hope this helps!

 

[photoperiodic]

it does not matter use diaomacious earth it is milliopn year old micro crustations they will turn whatever is eating your roots to sliced up death. just be careful that shit is like millions of little razor blades

 

[xxxstr8edgexxx]

it does not matter use diatomaceous earth it is million year old micro crustations they will turn whatever is eating your roots to sliced up death. just be careful that shit is like millions of little razor blades

i really wish that what you are saying was true for everyone ive read reports from. unfortunately it really hasnt been effective at ridding an infestation of these critters in any situation ive heard of. seems nothing alone is. and even the best eradication programs require due diligence and still sometimes they re-emerge. the tone of your post would suggest that you dealt with an infestation of r.a.'s and got rid of them easily with d.e.. What was your experience with them? if you've figured it out please elaborate!!!! from my understanding of d.e. it works only when dry so im confused how it would be able to rid aphids in such a moist environment? im excited to hear your innovative new solution.

 

[xxxstr8edgexxx]

That may make sense--the ph thing & orthene. My soil mix has a higher ph than most--which may explain why some users (me) experienced zero leaf burn while others (symbiote420) did. The PH level for my tap water hovers around 8 and my soil starts off just under 7.

Pesticide and soil leaching (dunking/drenching) can accelerate the natural decline of the soil's PH...at least that is what smarter people than me have concluded.

Why did I select Orthene? Because one of the top entomologists around (Ray Cloyd) said it was one of the few pesticides tested that was nearly 100% effective against RAs. Read the first paragraph on the second page under "RESULTS" of the attached pdf file...and notice the date of the article (RAs have been around for a while!).

Why did I select Riptide? Orthene alone sometimes would take 2-3 days for 100% eradication, but when a Pyrethrine product was added...zero RAs--immediately. Riptide is one of the few "oil-less water soluble" pyrethrine products available that IS ALSO about half the cost of the more traditional pyrethrine insecticide products marketed for gardening. PBO is a synergist that allows me to get more "bang" while using less poison.

Perhaps adjusting the amount of Orthene might be the answer for those with lower PH (soil and water). But bear in mind, when I had RAs...it was a major infestation and my original dosage amounts is how I achieved 100% eradication without plant loss...and probably with higher PH.

Based on what we know now...perhaps using Orthene at 1-2 grams per gallon for those with low PH (water and/or soil) might be the answer.

BTW...think clean room (lab coats, hair nets, booties) and sanitize everything--tools, all containers, replace bamboo stakes with plastic, steam clean the corners of your grow room, walls & floors scrubbed with bleach & soapy water, etc. Contamination...and cross-contamination is how RAs spread. Eventually you will win and enjoy life without RAs but it takes a one-two punch to do it...and it has been years since I have seen the lil buggers!

Hope this helps!

thanks for the quick report back.
also id like to thank you for all your really clear journaling and explaining of your science based factual researched approach.
you changed my mind about forums as this is the pest that brought me to this site.
i gave up on the orthene option after a massive clone teen mom catastrophe. it looked like a slow ongoing nitrogen burn that seemed to last as long as the reported dt50 would suggest it would be present. i was researching how to break the chemical down that i had left over mixed for my dunks. i also saw this info when trying to understand the environmental fate in aqueous environments and again in the hazards section about mixing it with alkaline substances.offgassing nitrogen and nitrogen burn ...ding!......maybe ill revisit orthene as the imid approach bums me out. i have a few questions for eclipse420 to help come up with my new plan based on my hypothesis.
what medium do you root in? have you ever used this regimen with a rockwool cutting and if so what did you observe.
im interested to try this out again but im guessing the rock wool cuts will have to be well established into coco before the can receive this treatment. then from coco to soil after they wont be needing this anymore.
and again mad props on your participation on this thread. youve changed my life for the better. i really didnt want to use imid. the lightbulb went off in my head last night when i couldnt sleep.seriously.
thanks

 

[EclipseFour20]

str8edge, thanks man!

Once upon a time I was an "organic fanatic" adhering to every rule/verse/scripture until I realized it was time to rethink my growing logic and apply some business logic that blessed me in my prior life--that is, "adopt the best practices from all disciplines (steal the best) and stop doing things that don't work (ignore the worst)".

So...I went from 100% organic to 98-99% and got a nice bump in quantity and quality, then I was blessed with the worst Root Aphids known to man (I figured Orthene got me below 90%). The only thing that was economically feasible in my garden was "not organic"...or put differently "a bad alternative (chem) was more effective than all the good alternatives (organic)". So now the task was to select the "best" of the "worst"--and using half life information (both soil and plant) Imid was quickly eliminated--especially after reading several studies that measured Imid residual levels on tobacco leaf months after application.

I called Ray Cloyd, had a nice conversation and he suggested Orthene to combat RAs. I researched and liked what I saw and conducted a battery of Orthene experiments on my infested garden (levels as high as 20 grams per gallon....yikes!) So now we have the complete story.

Never tried rockwool...and hated those root cubes for cloning. I clone/root in plain everyday ProMix BX. Here is a link where I explain my technique--https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=6040144&postcount=88, post 92 has a pic of the tiny basket I use to hold the moist ProMix. Yep, time between snip from mama to "soil" transplant is always less than 2 weeks...most take around 10 days. Just saying, that 2 day water soak is magic and can shave a week or so.

Cheers!

BTW, bonzai tree soil mixes use heavy amounts of DE (some trees are planted in 100% DE) but not the powdered variety--rather it is granule/baby chunk size. DE contains amorphous silica (plant available), loaded with minerals and has excellent absorbent qualities--when used wisely. I include a goodly amount of Fossil Shell Flour (food grade DE) in my custom soil mix and have zero root issues (other than controlling roots growing out of the container drain holes).

 

[xxxstr8edgexxx]

str8edge, thanks man!

Once upon a time I was an "organic fanatic" adhering to every rule/verse/scripture until I realized it was time to rethink my growing logic and apply some business logic that blessed me in my prior life--that is, "adopt the best practices from all disciplines (steal the best) and stop doing things that don't work (ignore the worst)".

So...I went from 100% organic to 98-99% and got a nice bump in quantity and quality, then I was blessed with the worst Root Aphids known to man (I figured Orthene got me below 90%). The only thing that was economically feasible in my garden was "not organic"...or put differently "a bad alternative (chem) was more effective than all the good alternatives (organic)". So now the task was to select the "best" of the "worst"--and using half life information (both soil and plant) Imid was quickly eliminated--especially after reading several studies that measured Imid residual levels on tobacco leaf months after application.

I called Ray Cloyd, had a nice conversation and he suggested Orthene to combat RAs. I researched and liked what I saw and conducted a battery of Orthene experiments on my infested garden (levels as high as 20 grams per gallon....yikes!) So now we have the complete story.

Never tried rockwool...and hated those root cubes for cloning. I clone/root in plain everyday ProMix BX. Here is a link where I explain my technique--https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=6040144&postcount=88, post 92 has a pic of the tiny basket I use to hold the moist ProMix. Yep, time between snip from mama to "soil" transplant is always less than 2 weeks...most take around 10 days. Just saying, that 2 day water soak is magic and can shave a week or so.

Cheers!

BTW, bonzai tree soil mixes use heavy amounts of DE (some trees are planted in 100% DE) but not the powdered variety--rather it is granule/baby chunk size. DE contains amorphous silica (plant available), loaded with minerals and has excellent absorbent qualities--when used wisely. I include a goodly amount of Fossil Shell Flour (food grade DE) in my custom soil mix and have zero root issues (other than controlling roots growing out of the container drain holes).

i hear you. dumping weekly pyrethrum/neem dunks down the drain versus composting acephate into inert byproduct a few times sounded more ecologically and financially sound to me too. plus it has the upside of actually working. i was pretty disheartened when i had a reaction in my plants. 30% loss to burn and the remaining shocked for two weeks. im pretty sure from the fact that the clones i received were from several sources and were in different mediums and all displayed different reactions. the medium in soil perlite and rockwool all responded dramatically where the the coco plugs were fine. i may adopt a regimen of only cloning in peet and and doing the first upotting to as well so i can treat my next round one the room again is isolated from any rootballs. got a scope and am able to confine my veg space so i am lucky but i know the battle isnt over. i will abstain from imid other than treating incoming babies ill make moms out of and quaranteen and clone them. ill never flipantly bring clones into my garden again. i just popped some wifia and firealienkush also rare d. and sin city seeds along with some other killer looking genetics and have a some silvertips going as moms now so im good for a little while. i saw your blue power posts and am going to pop them next
thanks

 

[Hmong]

seems nothing alone is. and even the best eradication programs require due diligence and still sometimes they re-emerge.

Oh yes and they are never gone for good unless you dump everything.

mine are back allready but the infestations is still nothing compared to the time before all the treatments.

In Veg & Bloom i have flyers again, but interestingly a lot more in veg. In bloom a good 90% of them are fungus gnats but in veg every insect on my sticky traps is a RA. I also try to catch every flyer I spot during watering etc. but its quite some waste of time I rarely catch one, but if i do I am very thankfull every time its just a fungus gnat.
But I don't see any crabs or wingless adults at al crawling around.
NOTHING. I checked roots but couldn't spot nymphs sucking on them. Also i put tanglefoot on the stems.
So where are the f*** flyers comming from?
But they seem to strenghen again, I spot them now regularely.
So i thinks is gonna be time again for neem+pyrethrine.
Thats my only weapon since Acephate is off limits for me due to legal situation here. I don't get it without being a licenced crop farmer

I am not sure if I am doing a root drench again. Since I am actively reacting on my infestation, which has been for 3 weeks now. I have done 3 dunks, countless sprays and everytime i fucked up a few plants. I also cleaned the whole area every time. I was more housekkeper than grower.
the goal in veg was to get rid of RAs as good as possible and make them fit bevore flowering but the actual situation is moren than depressing, there is yellowing all over ech plant. I would trash all of them preferably asap but then there would be so much of rare genetics lost for ever.
As long as I dont have a stable method to root without any medium I am not ready to riks that. I build a small bubbler for 20 clones, they are 2 weeky in yet but have no roots so far.
I guess my water is crap, i used tab (we dont have chloride so no prob) with some plagron root stimulant but it seems to be useless.
most people just use tabwater alone and have results within 10 days. maybe I should check ph too, but since I use an airstone, pH rises from 5,5 to 7 again within 2 hrs in my tabwater. maybe it works better with RO water.

So there are plenty of problems comming together at once and my small incoor garden has become some REAL work. I miss the time where it was just potting, feeding after manufacturer scedule and harvesting nice after 10 weeks. Since I dont use soil anymore everything fucked up.

my actual flowering takes another 3 weeks so there is some time left for problem solving in veg. After everything i read about neem I still think it works, it may just need more time to build up in a Plant. rather than some real chemical. So i think I just foilar from now for the reamaining 3 weeks and then consider the results.
its allways learning by doing i guess. and learrning experience is all life is about at the end.

all this individual experince is what is so valuable.
in this thread we have learned that there are many roads to rome but that doesn't matter if you dont know which vehicle to use depending on which obstacles are you are comming across individually. After over 160 sites of thread we still don't have a golden rule that works on every differnet aspect but lots of personal experiences.
at this point I thank everyone who gave his 2 cents in this thread.

 

[Shoots]

These problems plagued me for too long. I did not know what to do really since I only have five or so years of real growing experience most of it being in an organic soil mix I had been recycling. Never a real problem until I brought in some new gear. I had the "Works" FG, RA, AND Thrips. All stages of growth larvae, crawlers and winged flyers. Broke down and treated with Orhtene 97 last night. Did not use it with the riptide but I did make up a diluted spot spray with some spectrazide and sm-90.

My question is what is the safest PHI for our plant? I am hoping eclipse420 could elaborate some on how late into flower could you go? I have done extensive research this week and feel like my heads going to pop from all the shit I just went through.

I also want to know what a good follow up will be. I am planning on doing something just not sure what yet. I would prefer not to do another dunk but I will if needed. I am going to treat my water with mosquito dunks for the next feeding.

Thanks to all posters in here. this thread taught me a lot.

SHOOTS

 

[GreeeeN GRassss]

sorry in advance if these questions are already answered but there is just so much information here and so many pages to read. im growing in coco, hand watering.

In my first grow room i was killing it growing really nice plants with great yields. then i had to move and my yield went from a low of 5 oz dry to a high of 8 oz per plant to barely getting 1 oz. the only thing that changed in my set up was the location. i could not put my finger on the problem was it the hard water did i do some thing that i missed.

Then i started to see maybe one fly here and another there every so often they look like the first pictures of the Fungus Gnat on the first page of this thread. my first step was to get sticky strips and i hung them around my tent and put them on top of the pots. to my surprise after a few days the strips had Gnats on them. when i try check the roots i cant see anything only maybe what the OP calls micros.

would the Gnats really effected my yield like i have explained. i was told to use apple cider vinegar with some dish wash cleaner and there are more winged Gnats in the vineagr. to try stop this i took my tent down a few weeks ago and stopped flowering but i do still have some plants vegging. will the break kill the Gnats in my tent?

 

[Hmong]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]when i try check the roots i cant see anything only maybe what the OP calls micros.
...
would the Gnats really effected my yield like i have explained?[/FONT]
will the break kill the Gnats in my tent?

If you are not sure about the "micros" you have spotted, get a 60x magnifier for 10 bucks and search around your rootball.

Thats what the enemy looks like!



I took this picture just today, bevore i threw away a batch of seedlings which i wanted to transplant until i spotted them.
this is the larva stage, they are mainly lucent. those fuckers do the worst damage in my experience, they inject the patogenes. the smaller the root mass of a plant is the faster it will be killed, but also flyers will appear much faster in small pods. I allready had some in the 3" pods just after 3 weeks. I tried to chatch one with the cam + scope but under 60x magnification they are fast like a racecar.

So to answer your question:

Gnats alone wont effect your yield this bad unless you have swarms of them.
But root aphids will and unlike gnats they stay wherever you stay so in the end there is no chance to get rid of them for good other than trashing EVERY organic matter and substrate from and around your groom and then sterilize your whole place.
believe me, I found them biting through plastic sealed coco bricks and living in stored rockwool cubes.
So just leaving your box empty for a couple of maybe weeks wont do shit against RAs. Gnats i gues will also come back if you dont chance your behavior in some way. im most cases they appear when the media surface is to moist and thats why coco is such a bitch with gnats.

If you really just have gnats, then put a good layer of sand on your coco, avoid over watering and lower your temps + humidity
Give your ladies a little shave under the skirt for better air circulation. Neemoil should be enough but Pyrethrine will work for sure.

And after all ive gone through there is one last thing you should keep in mind or you will do more harm then good.
ALLWAYS ph your root drench on coco. Especially when you use a systemic, doesn't matter if organic or chem.

cheerz Hmong