Foliar Feeding

[PetFlora]

EDIT: I am on my 3rd TAG (hp pressure) grow using a UFO 90 from Sunshne Systems, supplementing with CLFs and a 26 watt screw bulb LED from Lowes. I am not attempting to replace root feeding, just turbo charge my grow

I just finished rereading the Advanced Foliar Technique. https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=51314&page=1&pp=40 which makes the point that foliage consumes 6Xs more nutes then roots, plus, the nutes are delivered right where they are needed. BUT, the stomatas only open twice a day- once before dawn and once right after lights out.

As importantly as when, due to the size of the stomata openings, they must be delivered as an aerosol (see how below).

While mature TAG roots require just 1-2 seconds of food every 3 minutes 24/7, maximum foliage spray is twice a day- once before dawn and once right after lights out. More often than that could lead to serious problems, but the benefits are tre enticing. They were hand spraying, and still getting excellent results, but a few people provided links to electrostatic foggers.

Regardless of how, growers are doing this, because Dutch Master offers highly developed foliar nutes, like Saturator Gold and Liquid Light, but the key is how to deliver them.

I figured I would at least experiment with hand spraying. Saturator is on its way, but I did not pony up for LL. Wish I had because I think I just nailed the 'how'. And everything I need to experiment is on hand.

As I am set up for d2w (drain to waste) I need

1. A second rez
2. A second hp pump, which I have as a backup anyway
3. An extra deep cycle timer. I may finally have a use for my iGS-011, whose shortest on time is ~<30 seconds; the longest off time 12 hours. Most likely the ~30 seconds is too long, and the 12 hours too short, unless you are doing a 12/12 from seed. Hmmmmmmmmm. In the end I may need a second Sentinel timer.

Seedlings/Cuttings: In the beginning I will put the iGS on the roots and Sentinel (<2 second on time) on the tiny young leaves for the first 2 weeks, then reverse them. Why? My experience is that feeding adolescent/mature roots more than 2 seconds every 3 minutes produces spaghetti roots, instead of fishbones and the all important pipe cleaner fuzzies. I am intuiting that maturing foliage will benefit from slightly longer mist feeding times, as their are considerably more stomata s to feed.


Keep in mind foliar feeding must be stopped once the plants are in bloom mode

TBC

 

[desertsquirrel]

I have been very interested in foliars for some time. a few months ago i started a thread (i think called foliar feeding in late harvest) because i had become increasingly interested in the subject. I got alot of good replies and have kept researching as much as i could ever since.

From what i understand, the stomata regulate gas exchange during photosynthesis and respiration. This means that aside from releasing O2, co2, and evapotranspiration H2O, it also releases toxins and waste. They serve the same function for plant epidermis as pores do for our skin. So in essence the Stomata are always open, unless the plant is in a state of stress. (so anti-wilt, or any anti-transpirant simply forces stomatas to close. not good.) What this means is that in C3 plants stomatas will start to close as conditions become hot and dry (anywhere from 80-90 degrees) and C4 plants in the opposite, when temps are around 50-60 degrees. I would love to see some work done on the classifications of cannabis strains, but for the purposes of foliar feeding its not that important.

This being said, as long as your room temps are right for your strains, any time is a good time to foliar. Personally i foliar 3-4 times per day from cut untill 4-5 weeks into flower (or until significant resign production has begun).

Now, as for products.

Saturater is a surfactant. It is used to apply liquids to a dry surface. The opposite of waxing a car. Instead of beading off the surface, it causes the liquid to coat it down and stick to it. When i asked on icmag what surfactant i should be using most of the best advisers said to buy a bottle of soap from the 99 cent store, and I'm sure that would of been fine. In fact when you get that saturater your going to find it looks exactly like industrial pink soap. I opted to use Humboldt sticky because i foliar with beneficial bacteria and i felt safer with an organic product, but i use it at about a 10th of the dosage on the bottle and i only use it every few days. It helps, but a little goes a long way.

As for the actual foliar feed cycle i run 4 different sprays 1 day per week and plain water on the 3 days between.

day 1 - 2 mil/gal micro
(gh, ces, what ever. It is claimed that Macro nutes are too large to be absorbed by the stomata, but micros can be.)
2 mil/gal pure flowers
(phosphite, used to build plant health and immunity)
10 mil/gal Humboldt sticky

day 2 - RO water

day 3 - Beneficial bacteria culture
(Organism, sucrat, floralicious+, super thrive tea)

day 4 - RO water

day 5 - 10 mil/gal mm2000
(root stimulant, leaf cleaner, aids in Turpin production, and smells amazing)

day 6 - RO water

Day 7 - Day 7 is a variable day.

In flower i run some Hum bolt Snow storm, or Pure flowers. I tried the Liquid lights, only thought it was so-so. I only feel like snow storm is so-so as well, but its about 10X cheaper.

In veg i run RO, repeate one of the other sprays if needed, or some times even run the snowstorm.

Hope this helps.


Also, im not sure what goal you would achieve with a finer mist. First of all the water will collect on the leaves anyway so the purpose of dividing the molecule will be defeted the mist reaches the leaves.
Also dividing the molecule size of the water carrying the nutrient chains will not make the chains any smaller, or easyer to accept by the stomata. This is why most macros (with the exception of N) cannot be taken-up in this way.

 

[dman16]

foggers are the way to go but not economical in many setups.
i use a mix of
5ml/liter CANNA BOOST
5ml/liter BIOBOOST
1ml/L Snow Storm Ultra
10ml/L AN F-1
then a little bit of cocowet
since using this my plants have never looked better.

 

[STUPPA]

Keep in mind foliar feeding must be stopped once the plants are in bloom mode

TBC

Why? the time when you will need the most nutes and beneficials and you stop feeding hmmmm

 

[PetFlora]

DS: As you indicate you scoured for foliar feeding info, I am surprised that you did not come across the IC link I provided. It combines scientific data that shows stomata size during various times of day. It is clear that they are are open to the max at first light/and right at lights off. It also shows real world sick plants return to health in short period of time.

Leaves

The exchange of oxygen and carbon dioxide in the leaf (as well as the loss of water vapor in transpiration) occurs through pores called stomata (singular = stoma).

Normally stomata open when the light strikes the leaf in the morning and close during the night.
The immediate cause is a change in the turgor of the guard cells. The inner wall of each guard cell is thick and elastic. When turgor develops within the two guard cells flanking each stoma, the thin outer walls bulge out and force the inner walls into a crescent shape. This opens the stoma. When the guard cells lose turgor, the elastic inner walls regain their original shape and the stoma closes.

Copied from the Foliar Tach Blog:

Time Osmotic Pressure, lb/in2
7 A.M. 212
11 A.M. 456
5 P.M. 272
12 midnight 191

The table shows the osmotic pressure measured at different times of day in typical guard cells. The osmotic pressure within the other cells of the lower epidermis remained constant at 150 lb/in2. When the osmotic pressure of the guard cells became greater than that of the surrounding cells, the stomata opened. In the evening, when the osmotic pressure of the guard cells dropped to nearly that of the surrounding cells, the stomata closed.

Opening stomata

The increase in osmotic pressure in the guard cells is caused by an uptake of potassium ions (K+). The concentration of K+ in open guard cells far exceeds that in the surrounding cells. This is how it accumulates:
Blue light is absorbed by phototropin which activates
a proton pump (an H+-ATPase) in the plasma membrane of the guard cell.
ATP, generated by the light reactions of photosynthesis, drives the pump.
As protons (H+) are pumped out of the cell, its interior becomes increasingly negative.
This attracts additional potassium ions into the cell, raising its osmotic pressure.
Closing stomata

Although open stomata are essential for photosynthesis, they also expose the plant to the risk of losing water through transpiration. Some 90% of the water taken up by a plant is lost in transpiration.


As to substituting soap for a proven surfactant, I don't know what the right ratio is, moreover, DM has probably developed additional ingredients to maximize the benefit.

 

[desertsquirrel]

Thats what soap is, it is a surfactant. Thats why it helps remove dirt from surfaces.

And you might want to try a dutch master product before you find its "proven."

And i would use saturator at more like 6 mils/gal rather then 60. Dm wants you to use as much of that expensive soap as possible.

 

[PetFlora]

DUH, but ike anything else there are surfactants and then there are surfactants. That said, I agree 60 ml/l is crazy. I emailed them

 

[spurr]

I just finished rereading the Advanced Foliar Technique. https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=51314&page=1&pp=40 which makes the point that foliage consumes 6Xs more nutes then roots, plus, the nutes are delivered right where they are needed. BUT, the stomatas only open twice a day- once before dawn and once right after lights out.

Hey bro,

I haven't read that page yet, I will do so later today, but I can tell you if that is what it claims it's wrong on a few counts. The biggest erroneous claim is ions (normally) enter leaf via. stoma, they do not. They enter via. cuticle layer; the stoma claim is often repeated but it's not correct. This means spaying under leafs isn't critical.

Also, leafs can't take in more ions then roots, but they can take a greater % of ions given to them (often more quickly too). If that url cites the older studies on radio-labeled ions I think it might cite, that paper is written kind of poor in terms of interpretation of data.

Foliar feeding should only be viewed as a adjunct to root feeding, foliar feeding cannabis can't replace root feeding.

P.s. I'll send you a PM soon, I know you from somewhere else.

P.P.S. check out this post I just made in another thread about the efficacy and-lack-thereof for DM Penetrator and Saturator. And why using dish soap is a fail as a surfactant:
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=3941541&postcount=3

EDIT: I figured I would simply post my message from that thread here:

Hope you find this useful, this is a post I made about helping to fix Ca deficiency in a plant that suffers from low transpiration issue. I wrote about DM product and how to make a (most likely) better homemade version.

DM products (Penetraor and saturator) are used a few people I know at 1/2 strength. And 1/2 stengh in a gallon of distilled water reaches pH of 10.50-11+ (depending upon the amount of carbonic acid in the distilled water). That pH is too high IMO.

When I used to use DM I would use at 1/2 strength and pH adjust down to 7, at most, when applying soluble non-chelated micronutrients. Folair sprays are most effective at weakly acidic to weakly basic pH; I shoot for 6-6.5 with sprays with ions that can become insoluble at higher pH, ex. >7.

What I plan to change below is the surfactant I use, when I start using those professional grade surfactants (Douse and Activator 90; testing to see the one I like best) I won't use Therm-X 70 or humic acid anymore.

I forgot to mention, you should probably spray your plants with 2.5ml calmag+ per gallon of distilled water using a good non-ionic surfactant and a few ml's of humic acid liquid. That will provide immediate Ca to reach the leaf tissue bypassing root > xylem > leaf transport.

The calcium-nitrate (from CalMag+) will easily absorb into the leaf (through cuticle layer and cell membrane) and provide Ca, N (and Mg and Fe from the CalMag+) for the tissue. Adjust the foliar pH to between 6-6.5 before spraying because leafs prefer near neutral pH, and to keep ions highly soluble try to keep pH in the ideal range.

And you should spray soon, before you fix the night time RH issues. The higher the RH the better it swells leaf cuticle layer and aqueous pores, this helps leafs take in ions and organic substances (via. cuticle layer; not stoma). Spray when the HID isn't running, just as night starts, I use a CFL for light to spray. Let the temp clime as high as 70'F and let the RH clime to high as it can. I am not sure how long your night-lengths are, but try to keep the light off for 6-10 hours (ex. cut into hour of light for the next day); the longer the better.

Use of calcium-nitrate is good 3 reasons: (1) it's a good source of Ca; (2) it will continue absorbing into the leaf even when it not in solution (drop of water on leaf) when RH is > 53%; and (3) the ions rather quickly enter the cuticle layer and swell the cuticle layer allowing easier passage of other ions and organic substances (that is why it's good to include calcium-nitrate in all foliar sprays).

The addition of humic acid is to reduce evaporation rate of water droplets from leaf and to benefit the leaf directly.

P.S. IMO don't use DutchMaster Penetrator (now called Saturator), just use a non-ionic surfactant. DM Penetrator and Saturator have the same flaw: they both use ions to swell cuticle layer that have very high POD (Point of Deliquesce) of >~93-95% RH. That means once the leaf looks dry, the RH has to stay above 95% for the ions in DM to continue being absorbed from leaf surface and thus to continue doing their 'job'. The reason is leafs can absorb ions in phyllosphere for many hours after foliar spraying, long past once the leaf looks dry. That is why I use and suggset CalMag+, because the calcium-nitrate acts in the same manner as the ions in DM product (ammonium-phosphate mix and phosphate-potassium mix). But cal-nitrate works better because it has a much lower POD. So you can make your own, better, DM Penetrator/Saturator by using the foliar spray I suggested above.

P.P.S. dish washing soap isn't a good surfactant, it has low % saponin. Therm-X 70 is a good yucca surfactant, I use it at 2.5 ml per gallon, but 1 ml per gallon is also fine. There are some decent surfactants (better than yucca) one can buy at hydro stores; one is called "something-blue", it's a blue liquid, I can't recall the name.

There are really good surfactants used for horticulture and by fire depts. to fight forest fires but they are special order items and come by the gallon to 5 gallon or more.

My base foliar spray I use to apply kelp extract, PRGs, etc.:

(per gallon of distilled water)

• 1-2 ml CalMag+
• 5 ml humic acid liquid (with 8% HA by weight)
• 2.5 ml Therm-X 70 (or other surfactant)
• pH adjust to 6.00-6.10

 

[spurr]

FWIW,

It is possible to use foliar adjuvants that lower water tension so far (e.g. organo-silicates) the water and ions and herbicides will enter leaf via. stoma, but they are bad for the leaf and are only used for weed killer sprays (herbicides). Very little (to none) of a foliar spray should enter leaf via. stoma when we are spraying cannabis..

There are all kinds of foliar adjuvants, a couple hurt the leaf but that doesn't matter because they were made for use with herbicides. A few types spray adjuvants are: (1) organo-silicates; (2) methylated seed oil concentrate (usually soybean oil); (3) crop oil concentrate; (4) synthetic surfactant; etc.

All the adjuvants listed above can be anionic, cationic or non-ionic.

Of those different types of surfactants (1) and (2) are the worst for the plant; they are often used for herbicide application. The organo-silicate can/does damage the leaf cuticle layer and enables ions and organic substances and herbicides to enter the stoma. The MSO (Methylated Seed Oil) is bad for plants because it softens the leaf cuticle layer, thus it's termed a leaf 'penetrant'. Although it increases ion and other substances passage into leaf cuticle layer, the damage done to the leaf is too great to use it for cannabis.

Ideally I would use a proven synthetic non-ionic surfactant I special ordered. I wish to do so because the surfactants at the hydro store are way too expensive and they lack info about what they are made of. That and the efficacy of professional surfactants should be higher than what most people have local access to.

A part from the blog you quoted, about the "guard cells" (aka aqueous pores) around the stoma swelling as a good thing for leaf absorption of foliar spray (and ions, dissolved organic substances, PGRs, etc) is true. But not for passage into leaf via. stoma. When the aqueous pores are swollen (ex. in high RH and not high temp) they allow for easier passage of some ions (etc) into the cuticle layer. That is why it's good swell the aqueous pores. Once ions, etc., pass the leaf cuticle layer they pass cell membranes too.

The two non-ionic surfactants I am going to try are below. When mixing them with calcium-nitrate it could/should make for a better surfactant better than DM products, esp. if the room RH is increased prior to spraying leafs.

1. Douse: Ethoxylated Alcohol, Glycol and Dimethylpolysiloxane (link)

2. Activator 90: Alkyl polyoxyethylene Ether, free fatty acids and water (link)
​

Some people suggset SM-90 as a surfactant, I believe it falls under the COC category being a crop oil concentrate. I would have given it a try but it is also a fungicide, so it's no good for normal use with foalir sprays. We don't' want to kill the fungi in the phyllosphere if we can help it; unless said fungi is something bad like PM, etc.

Here is a good read from LoveLand adjuvants, they sell Activator 90. This guide is geared for crops but it's has good info about various types of adjuvants and their goals, etc.

The ABC's of Spraying
http://www.lovelandproducts.com/docs/assets/6C0F4A7F-FE80-5185-147C134CD95FBBA4/6582_ABC_Aug09.pdf

 

[PetFlora]

I received this reply from DM: Gold Range SATURATOR was tested for efficacy at the University of British Columbia under my personal direction where we calculated that 60ml per litre was the optimal dilution rate. You must have information to the contrary??

 

[PetFlora]

See my comments within yours. What hardware are you using to FF and is it automatic, or manual? Would you mind posting some pics of your FF set up?

I am trying to bring back 4 lowryder/bubble seedlings after a night without electricity to power my hp pump. The outlet it was plugged into tripped. Didn't discover this until the morning. In that time the young roots dried out. Adding to the problem the plants were uncovered.

BTW thanks for all the info.

FWIW,

>...

A part from the blog you quoted, about the "guard cells" (aka aqueous pores) around the stoma swelling as a good thing for leaf absorption of foliar spray (and ions, dissolved organic substances, PGRs, etc) is true. But not for passage into leaf via. stoma. When the aqueous pores are swollen (ex. in high RH and not high temp) they allow for easier passage of some ions (etc) into the cuticle layer. That is why it's good swell the aqueous pores. Once ions, etc., pass the leaf cuticle layer they pass cell membranes too. Would one use a clone type cover to create some RH? At the moment I am using individual 24 ounce clear cups over each young plant (and spraying some of the FF into the cups), but as they grow will need something much larger

Turns out I did order LL and Saturator. They will be here today.

>

Here is a good read from LoveLand adjuvants, they sell Activator 90. This guide is geared for crops but it's has good info about various types of adjuvants and their goals, etc.

The ABC's of Spraying
http://www.lovelandproducts.com/docs/assets/6C0F4A7F-FE80-5185-147C134CD95FBBA4/6582_ABC_Aug09.pdf

 

[headband 707]

FWIW,

It is possible to use foliar adjuvants that lower water tension so far (e.g. organo-silicates) the water and ions and herbicides will enter leaf via. stoma, but they are bad for the leaf and are only used for weed killer sprays (herbicides). Very little (to none) of a foliar spray should enter leaf via. stoma when we are spraying cannabis..

There are all kinds of foliar adjuvants, a couple hurt the leaf but that doesn't matter because they were made for use with herbicides. A few types spray adjuvants are: (1) organo-silicates; (2) methylated seed oil concentrate (usually soybean oil); (3) crop oil concentrate; (4) synthetic surfactant; etc.

All the adjuvants listed above can be anionic, cationic or non-ionic.

Of those different types of surfactants (1) and (2) are the worst for the plant; they are often used for herbicide application. The organo-silicate can/does damage the leaf cuticle layer and enables ions and organic substances and herbicides to enter the stoma. The MSO (Methylated Seed Oil) is bad for plants because it softens the leaf cuticle layer, thus it's termed a leaf 'penetrant'. Although it increases ion and other substances passage into leaf cuticle layer, the damage done to the leaf is too great to use it for cannabis.

Ideally I would use a proven synthetic non-ionic surfactant I special ordered. I wish to do so because the surfactants at the hydro store are way too expensive and they lack info about what they are made of. That and the efficacy of professional surfactants should be higher than what most people have local access to.

A part from the blog you quoted, about the "guard cells" (aka aqueous pores) around the stoma swelling as a good thing for leaf absorption of foliar spray (and ions, dissolved organic substances, PGRs, etc) is true. But not for passage into leaf via. stoma. When the aqueous pores are swollen (ex. in high RH and not high temp) they allow for easier passage of some ions (etc) into the cuticle layer. That is why it's good swell the aqueous pores. Once ions, etc., pass the leaf cuticle layer they pass cell membranes too.

The two non-ionic surfactants I am going to try are below. When mixing them with calcium-nitrate it could/should make for a better surfactant better than DM products, esp. if the room RH is increased prior to spraying leafs.

1. Douse: Ethoxylated Alcohol, Glycol and Dimethylpolysiloxane (link)

2. Activator 90: Alkyl polyoxyethylene Ether, free fatty acids and water (link)
​

Some people suggset SM-90 as a surfactant, I believe it falls under the COC category being a crop oil concentrate. I would have given it a try but it is also a fungicide, so it's no good for normal use with foalir sprays. We don't' want to kill the fungi in the phyllosphere if we can help it; unless said fungi is something bad like PM, etc.

Here is a good read from LoveLand adjuvants, they sell Activator 90. This guide is geared for crops but it's has good info about various types of adjuvants and their goals, etc.

The ABC's of Spraying
http://www.lovelandproducts.com/docs/assets/6C0F4A7F-FE80-5185-147C134CD95FBBA4/6582_ABC_Aug09.pdf

Okay spray only in veg plants LOVE IT and it is the only way to deliver certain size element as these elements are too large to be delivered via root. So for these reasons foiler spray is the boom LOL LOL.. SEAWEED go with SEAWEED plants love it peace out Headband707

 

[rick shaw]

I foliar feed weekly up to the last two weeks they love it.I use Floralicious plus

 

[PetFlora]

I have been FFng with DM Sat/LL and they love it. It's such a small amount, even at DMs reccommended ratio,

 

[rambo6372]

Ive been using the DM Liquid Light & Saturator for a short while but Im not impressed. Can anyone add some good foliar feeds. Im going to try the Canna Boost shortly and possibly organicare seaplex. If any info can be added, please do.

 

[darthvapor]

I noticed that using fulvic acid along with a seaweed product or calcium carbonate makes them more effective. I dont have any data to back that up, just observation. Seems that the fulvic acid gets the foliars in the plant more efficieantly I guess. Spurr what to you think?