F1 Males value?

[Miraculous Meds]

If I want to inbreed a F1 strain, would there be value in keeping males from the f1, or f2 generations, if my goal were to breed to the f4 or so, to stabilize a trait?

 

[MJPassion]

Imo, you'd be better off searching for keeper males in the F2 or F3 gen. There's typically not many homozygous traits in F1 seed stock.

Only real value of the F1 is for making F2s.
Strictly my opinion.

 

[sirius haze]

If I want to inbreed a F1 strain, would there be value in keeping males from the f1, or f2 generations, if my goal were to breed to the f4 or so, to stabilize a trait?

Self several best F1 females at least two generations, your S2 will be far more true breeding than your F4. Keeping a few F2 seeds lines in the fridge will be a good idea too if you can.

 

[Miraculous Meds]

Thanks for the responses guys.

I think that there might not be value in keeping a male till f3 or f4. Maybe back crossing is better done to the female.

What is more common, to back cross to a male, or female?

 

[GMT]

Couple of points. If inbreeding, you use siblings or cousins, not parents, as as you correctly said, that's back crossing. You stated the goal to be stabilisation, inbreeding is the way to go. You won't stabilise by bacrossing to an F1 parent, no matter if you use male or female.

 

[MJPassion]

Seems the best seedlines use males that have proven their worth for back crossing. Afterall, they are the more difficult of the two to evaluate.

The F2 gen should give rise to an extremely variable population allowing you to see more expressions than generations that follow.

At F2 and later gens, you are attempting to grab the traits you want & recombine them into your final goal.

F2 is where the recessives show up. It is the first gen to use for Selfing, imo.

 

[Miraculous Meds]

I think this all makes a bit more sense now. So the f1 males can be culled after u make a population of f2's.

Do breeders/seed makers that take a seed line to f5 save f2, f3, and f4 males to work with then? Or maybe they would just dip into the f3 seed pool if they wanted to work with a male from that generation again?

 

[Ptone]

Seems the best seedlines use males that have proven their worth for back crossing. Afterall, they are the more difficult of the two to evaluate.

The F2 gen should give rise to an extremely variable population allowing you to see more expressions than generations that follow.

At F2 and later gens, you are attempting to grab the traits you want & recombine them into your final goal.

F2 is where the recessives show up. It is the first gen to use for Selfing, imo.

So you're saying that S1's made from F2's are more stable and homozygous?

 

[sirius haze]

If you are at F2 and had not mated the right F1 male(s) with your selected F1 female(s), your F2 will not be as good as your selected F1 mothers and so the next generations won't be as good too because of the wrong F1 male(s) used. I like this quote "The progeny must equal or surpass it's parent in overall quality and desirability to be considered for future breeding". Good luck to find the right male(s) without BIG progeny testing. Winners males are winners because of their progeny not their phenotype. To bred true traits you will have more success in Selfing directly your selected F1 females.

The difficulty to find the right F1 male(s) and the heterogeneity of the F2 will make you a even more difficult task to find the right female with the right genotype in the F2 and so Selfed F2 could be homozygous or not depending of the individual chosen to Self and only if your F2 line is good enough first ie the right F1 male used.
Remember basically F2 gives 1 AA, 1 aa and 2 Aa.

Ask you the question, do you want to see the good traits of your selected females F1 diluted or gone in the F2 ? because if you don't find the right male(s) F1 it could happens. Its easier to select the female part but the male side ? Be prepared to progeny test dozens of males...

Selfing selected females F1, S1, S2... is the quickest road to bred true the traits you see in your F1 females. When you will have the right Selfed generation of your best females you will have a true breeding line for the traits you want and you will be able to restore the dioecy in reintroducing the Y chromosome if you want via a backcross to an ancestor regular(female:male) line like your F2 or an outcross to an unrelated regular line.

 

[MJPassion]

So you're saying that S1's made from F2's are more stable and homozygous?

No.
I'm saying that due to the variability of the F2 generation a person is more likely to find plants already exhibiting homozygous traits.

When you find plants that exhibit the traits being searched for then by selfing and growing those seeds you can tell if the plant is homozygous for that particular trait or combination of traits.

 

[MJPassion]

If you are at F2 and had not mated the right F1 male(s) with your selected F1 female(s), your F2 will not be as good as your selected F1 mothers and so the next generations won't be as good too because of the wrong F1 male(s) used. I like this quote "The progeny must equal or surpass it's parent in overall quality and desirability to be considered for future breeding". Good luck to find the right male(s) without BIG progeny testing. Winners males are winners because of their progeny not their phenotype. To bred true traits you will have more success in Selfing directly your selected F1 females.

The difficulty to find the right F1 male(s) and the heterogeneity of the F2 will make you a even more difficult task to find the right female with the right genotype in the F2 and so Selfed F2 could be homozygous or not depending of the individual chosen to Self and only if your F2 line is good enough first ie the right F1 male used.
Remember basically F2 gives 1 AA, 1 aa and 2 Aa.

Ask you the question, do you want to see the good traits of your selected females F1 diluted or gone in the F2 ? because if you don't find the right male(s) F1 it could happens. Its easier to select the female part but the male side ? Be prepared to progeny test dozens of males...

Selfing selected females F1, S1, S2... is the quickest road to bred true the traits you see in your F1 females. When you will have the right Selfed generation of your best females you will have a true breeding line for the traits you want and you will be able to restore the dioecy in reintroducing the Y chromosome if you want via a backcross to an ancestor regular(female:male) line like your F2 or an outcross to an unrelated regular line.

Technically,
A true F1, breed from stabile parents, should be uniform in their growth & appearance. But there's always outliers in the field.

How do you choose a properly breed F1?

Uniformity & stability are not the same thing. Uniform plants are not necessarily true breeding.
And
With all the polyhybrids on the market, it's a rare thing to have a pack of seed display much of either, uniformity or stability.

btw... that quote is from DJ Short & an excellent one.

 

[MJPassion]

I think this all makes a bit more sense now. So the f1 males can be culled after u make a population of f2's.

Do breeders/seed makers that take a seed line to f5 save f2, f3, and f4 males to work with then? Or maybe they would just dip into the f3 seed pool if they wanted to work with a male from that generation again?

With changes being reported by long time growers of the same strains...
It would lead one to believe that seed pools are being dipped into.
However, I think some would bring genetic drift into the equation.

Without actually doing the work yourself it's difficult to know fact from fiction. However, I tend to think most good breeders aren't yankin your chain.

 

[stihgnobevoli]

you cross 2 individuals from the current generation to reach the next gen. you will need a male from each generation. you're inbreeding.

f1+f1=f2
f2+f2=f3
f3+f3=f4
...etc

 

[sirius haze]

Technically,
A true F1, breed from stabile parents, should be uniform in their growth & appearance. But there's always outliers in the field.

How do you choose a properly breed F1?

Uniformity & stability are not the same thing. Uniform plants are not necessarily true breeding.
And
With all the polyhybrids on the market, it's a rare thing to have a pack of seed display much of either, uniformity or stability.

btw... that quote is from DJ Short & an excellent one.

MJPassion i was advising a better breeding scheme to the OP than the usual female:male inbreeding scheme. You can't create a true breeding line without progeny testing a lot of males generation after generation with the female:male inbreeding scheme. Its a work beyond the capacity of most of us.

 

[MJPassion]

@siriushaze,

I'm going to go one step further & say...

You can't create a stabilized line, no matter your methods, without progeny testing.



Also...
saying one method is "better" requires a bit of proof.
I've yet to see one method to be better than another.
Different... Yes...
Better... That's debatable

 

[symbiote420]

LOL, what's a stabilized line? You could take em to F150 and all you're gonna get is more of a particular pheno (using the one the breeder is working towards if the work is done right) will show up in the pop. One thing people need to realize with seeds is they will always have some diversity in them, no matter how many gens they are inbred. F2s are great to start looking for males, given you have enough to look thru, the dominantX2 to recessiveX2 and combos everywhere in between are all at your figertips F3s and F4s I've personally bred with and they make some nice hybrids ime

 

[Miraculous Meds]

Ive read that mating any 2 f1's from a uniform f1 hybrid will give u a wide diversity to look thru in the f2 generation. I believe dj wrote something to that effect. Then in the f2 gen its more important to find the right male to use to start getting a higher rate of the trait u want to lock in.

Do most people subscribe to this way of thinking? Im guessing this is logical since a f1 should be uniform, thus choosing any of them would have the same traits to start with.

 

[stihgnobevoli]

f2 gen is all the genes from both sides of the original parents. so 4^4. it's like breaking light down into the visible spectrum. makes it easier to recombine and make colors.

 

[Wuachuma]

If I want to inbreed a F1 strain, would there be value in keeping males from the f1, or f2 generations, if my goal were to breed to the f4 or so, to stabilize a trait?

It's an old thread, and I've seen the great work you do since this time. But, I want to reply just for others who may come across this concern in their own future projects.

F2 is best for stabilizing as F2 is a very narrow spectrum/slice of the gene pool. So you aren't playing with alleles of other traits that you would find in F1's.
One of my favorite things to do is to make an outcross as well as F2's, then use the F2 to Bx instead of using the same or sibling F1 to Bx. I find this to stabilize and isolate much quicker than Bx'ing with F1's as you're just working with too many different alleles at that point. Yet, very few in the industry do this as its more time consuming or takes more effort and cataloging and requires a few more plants each round of breeding.

F1's do have great use in breeding, though. Often times once you start inbreeding past F3 you may find that you start losing the trait you were looking to isolate. This is when you reintroduce an F1 into the breeding program.
So the program may look like this:
F1a x F1b -> F2a x F2b -> F3 x F2b -> F4a x F4b -- now things are lost, so -> F1a x F3 -> select female x F2b
just as a broadstroke example.
Since the F1's have a greater cross section of the genepool, they are great for reintroducing the genepool.

 

[GMT]

P1+P2 = F1
F1+ F1 = F2

F1 = 50% P1 & 50% P2
F2 = >-1% P1 & <101% P1
(Sorry my phone doesn't seem to have greater or equals symbol, hence the greater than -1 to denote 0 is the minimum.)
Therefore the selection is important here, as the wrong selection can bring you back to the original parental generation. But statistically, the average F2 will lean to one P plant or the other at 75% shared unique DNA.
Shared unique sounds like an oxymoron but all plants will have identical DNA for the most part. It's only a small percentage of DNA that were actually selecting for.
This gives me the opinion that F2 seeds are poor P plants unless creating F3.
F3 = somewhere between 0 and 100% of a P1's uniqueness. Selection is key.

Just using an generational number to decide whether enough work has been done to outcross doesn't really work. But backcrossing to an F1, will undo the work that's been done in selecting out what we don't want during later selections.

Remember, breeding isn't selecting what you want, it's removing what you don't want.