Extremely Urgent help needed identifying catastrophic repeating problem

[cyber echo]

Guys...
I am seriously pissed off with whats going on..
I've been battling the SAME thing for the past few months and this is happening with every single plant I try to grow. It is getting extremely annoying as I have almost ruled out everything and the way this "thing" is progressing is unlike anything I've ever seen and makes no sense at all.

This is happening in both soilless (Canna Coco) and soil (seedling mix). The SAME exact thing progressing:
1) Growth slows/halts, then some yellowing along veins that appears in no specific pattern (not anything like zn deficiency etc..):

2) "Nuteburn" signs start to show (both in coco and soil)

3) New growth stops, each leaf from bottom to top starts drying up like a late-flower phosphorus deficiency:


I made a thread here for my last grow and all the suggestions I have been given I have ruled out.

Its NOT a pH problem...
I made a control group with plants being given pH'd water and plants being given pure water to see if it is the pH down agent I have been using on the coco was causing burn. I tried both canna ph- down and organic citrus. No change.

It's NOT nuteburn, it is happening both in soilless and soil,same water that was given to seedlings is burning them AFTER theyve grown up a bit (makes no sense) PLUS I've not been giving any goddamn nutes to begin with.

It's NOT a deficiency, no reason for anything to be goddamn deficient, this is happening on seedlings that still have fully green cotys, in soil or soilless, and pH IS correct.

It's NOT root disease, the roots are damn fine and white and healthy.

Any thoughts ?
I am really baffled here guys. If the water had anythign that might burn the plants it would clearly do so while the plants are young, and not when they get older ?
This is starting at exactly day 8-9.... Same pattern, this grow and the last...

My last thread is here: https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=180247
Some pics from it, same exact thing that is happening right now:


Help would be much appreciated...

 

[LonelyNerd]

Are there any plastic tubs or soft containers in your grow area ?

 

[pine boy]

Plants look hungry not burned.Hit em with some N.

 

[cyber echo]

Are there any plastic tubs or soft containers in your grow area ?

No. This is not off-gassing.

Plants look hungry not burned.Hit em with some N.

It is definitely not a matter of plant hunger.. As they would not show these symptoms in the order that they are appearing with. The plants in seedling soil are barely a week old and starting to show these signs.

 

[Danny-boy777]

What sort of enviroment are they in,How are the temps, what nutes are you using?

 

[5FingrdSloth]

I would have guessed it was the ph down, but you say it wasn't.
then I'm thinking it looks environmental to me, but you say it can't be off-gassing. *wrinkled brow*

I would venture to guess you have a combination of stale nutes/cold temps possibly?

I have never seen plants so young act this way.

edit: thinking back, I had a similar problem in soil (amended FFOF) and it was my ph down. I forget the terminolgy but I was using ph down for aquariums as opposed to gardening. I switched my ph down to GH and it never came back.

edit#2 I remembered the terminology it was sulphuric acid based ph down that was giving me trouble.

 

[Danny-boy777]

I agree, definitely Nutes(additives) or Temps (environment) It could even be too warm the leaf serrations will curl first on the outer rim of the leaf first then begin to almost dry out from the outside in.thats heat.

 

[cyber echo]

I would have guessed it was the ph down, but you say it wasn't.
then I'm thinking it looks environmental to me, but you say it can't be off-gassing. *wrinkled brow*

I would venture to guess you have a combination of stale nutes/cold temps possibly?

I have never seen plants so young act this way.

edit: thinking back, I had a similar problem in soil (amended FFOF) and it was my ph down. I forget the terminolgy but I was using ph down for aquariums as opposed to gardening. I switched my ph down to GH and it never came back.

Not a ph- issue...
Same is happening in the groups that receive chemical ph- (Canna), organic ph- (natural citrus) and no ph- at all.

Not cold temps, temps peak at 29 and hover at low 23s-24s at night as a minimum.

It is not off-gassing either since off-gasing doesn't look like this nor does it progress the way this is progressing. Not to mention I have nothing in the cab that would release gases.

I will be starting a control group using bottle'd water only, to see if it is something in my drinking tap water.

 

[ibjamming]

I would say it is a pH problem...double check it. Especially the runoff...you may have really acidic soil. Or over watering...that could do it too. Cold temps...I've had plants look like that when it was close to freezing. Cold causes a lockout that looks like that.

 

[5FingrdSloth]

are you bubbling your tap water? I take it you are talking celsius temps too right?

 

[Sam the Caveman]

I'd recommend to stop using tap water.

A few weeks ago I flushed my ebb and flow plants with some ph adjusted tap water. When I checked on them a few hours later the stems went limp and all the buds were hanging way down. They took the shape of an umbrella.These plants were 4 weeks into flowering, I had been using ro water up til that point with my nutes.

I think when I ph adjusted the tap water, it made something f'ed up with the chemistry in the water.

RO water.

 

[WasntMe]

are you letting your tap water sit out for 24hrs before using it?

chlorine in yours?

 

[cyber echo]

I agree, definitely Nutes(additives) or Temps (environment) It could even be too warm the leaf serrations will curl first on the outer rim of the leaf first then begin to almost dry out from the outside in.thats heat.

As much as I appreciate your help bro, please do not post if you cannot (or did not) even read my initial post.

You have mentioned nutes twice yet my original post clearly explains I am not using nutes, nor should I, since the plants are still too young.

It is NOT a matter of OVER feeding, since I am not feeding.
It is NOT a matter of UNDER feeding, since the plants in a seedling mix that should have enough to last them through their first 2-3 weeks (not to mention I am getting signs of burn, not deficiency)

It is not a temperature issue that is causing all of this either.

I need people to suggest tests I could perform to determine whether this is some sort of lockout, or toxicity.

Please, please, please, do NOT reply to this thread unless you are 100% sure of what is going on, or atleast if you can give me some sort of experiment I could do to know what the hell is really going on.

Again what is happening step by step:
1) Growth slows down a little, everything looking normal and dark green.
2) Small streaks of yellow that look like an mg or zn deficiency but are not, since they appear in random sequence and in random places (not like a deficiency would). They start both in new leaves and in old leaves, also not in the same place (either from the bottom, or from the tip. Younger leaves are affected more.
3) Lowest leaves start getting nute-burned tips.
4) Nute-burned leaves start drying up with no stop.
5) The same begins at the next node, till the plant is all dry to a crisp.

 

[Danny-boy777]

Good point 5fingrdSloth, theres another option, Are you letting the water sit or bubbling or doing anything (reverse Osmosis) to rid it of other troubling attributes?

I usually use a Chlorine test kit to check the H20 I have left to clear before amending it, every time.

This way if it is Nute burn this is probably why you thought it wasn't.

Bare in mind that if you play the PH up or down too much the solution/media will become PH unstable and fluctuate both ways randomly.

 

[redneck shogun]

as long as you are running control groups, I would make one with bigger containers. I say this because after one week from sprout I have to get mine into bigger containers or I get yellowing. At the very least you may surprised how much faster the roots grow when they have more room to stretch.

 

[cyber echo]

I would say it is a pH problem...double check it. Especially the runoff...you may have really acidic soil. Or over watering...that could do it too. Cold temps...I've had plants look like that when it was close to freezing. Cold causes a lockout that looks like that.

This is exactly what you suggested the last time (in my older thread 2 months ago).

No... it is NOT a ph problem... I do not have acidic soil since this has happened to me in coco first. The soil group is a control group to see if the coco was at fault. Clearly not the coco's fault.

I will take accurate temperature readings around the clock to see if its a cold problem. I highly doubt that tho. Cold would show in other ways than how my problem is progressing.

Not to mention this doesnt happen to all the plants at the same time.

Younger plants are exploding with growth, the older plants slow down, the younger plants then also slow down, while NOTHING is changing in the cab.

Same exact environment, same exact watering pattern, good growth when young, slows down when they reach 4-5 nodes big, and the shit starts happening.

I have both dying plants and completely healthy plants at the same time, but it is only a matter of time. Something is killing them as they age.

The plants are NOT old enough to need repotting.

 

[5FingrdSloth]

you still haven't answered our questions as to whether or not you are bubbling your water or at least letting it sit out.

 

[VerdantGreen]

sounds like it might be chloramine in your water source, or some issue with your water source. have you tried changing your water source to eliminate it as a potential culprit???

 

[cyber echo]

Not bubbling or letting it sit out, no.
This is supposed to be drinking water, for the record.

If it the water had anything in it that would be toxic to the plants, why would they grow perfectly for the first 2 weeks or so then start showing retarded deficiency signs ?
If it is something from the tap water wouldn't the plants be more sensitive to it the younger they are ?
Unless whatever affects my plants takes a (relatively) long time to start kicking in ?

Has anything from the pics I have shown lead you to believe that some sort of toxicity is affecting me plants ? I so please tell specifically which, because kind of toxicity I have looked at in books and threads does not look like what I have.

 

[cyber echo]

sounds like it might be chloramine in your water source, or some issue with your water source. have you tried changing your water source to eliminate it as a potential culprit???

I am going to try 1 plant with bottled drinking water only to see. Will keep all the parameters the same.

At this point the ONLY thing I can think of is that the tap water has something evil in it.

I am going to verify by using bottled..
I am also going to let tap water sit for 24 hours before watering.

Thanks for the suggestions and guesses.