Everybody a breeder ?
- Thread starter silverhazefiend
- Start date
- Status
I finally made it! Day after day through strange lands I traveled, scrolling through wall after wall. The going got tougher. The weird got weirder. But all in all I learned a whole bunch of shit and I've changed a bit in how I think about what's acceptable in regard to breeding methods. There was a point in the late 60's when each page I clicked another popped up slapping me in the eyes with defeat. The desperation of an unfinishable task weighed heavy on me. If I am a cannabis grower, setting months and years aside working with a plant, how could I not even finish a thread? Had to power through! Damn it feels good to be on the other side! I love you mom!
This whole thing kind of turned out a little creepy.
R.Fortune
R.Fortune
No shit.
There's kids all over this planet.
There's kids all over this planet.
other than this is about the best my girl is on the way song as I have ever heard http://www.tristudios.com/videos/scaring-children-w-jackie-green-sugaree
But thats the thing....some of us remember Luke and Laura!.......Epic Soap Days!..
and either way....saying it was all a Plot!...is messed up...lol..in a funny way tho...
damn that tune was really well done..but still Bob ain't no Jerry...hell Jerry was playin non stop even back on the bus...and thats how it always was...everything needs a good Backbone...
and this thread has some really groovy info...that post Tom made on S3=F8's and 1:1's and the breakdown was actually damn helpful and I lost the damn post cause you guys are just pummeling this thread..heh.....it goes into 3 pages of random pics and some wide ranged convos...hahah......ok...I gata go back to growing herb...but man this was almost better then the soaps!..
actually its better then half the bs out there.....wats really goin on ya know...look at movies and music...wow is it really gotten better?....fuk no...
movies are mostly remakes of Great Movies...and done horribley bad now a days...Walkin Tall?....ya dont see a new Bruce Lee or Billy Jack cause theres just not that attention to detail...
Breeders to me are just that...
Meticulous Growers with a extreme Eye for Details...But even then if you dont know the basic diff between the regional varieties whats the point..its like leaving out over 50 % of your color pallet...far as art analogy's go...and when I try older genetics vs newer genetics all I can say is some paint with a very limited pallet...
FOE20
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Wow...Could not turn away from this thread and learned a lot. Thanks TH and others for time spent and clever no doubt.
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Kick start the golden generator
Sweet talk but don't intimidate her
Can't stop the gods from engineering
Feel no need for any interfering
Your image in the dictionary
This life is more than ordinary
Can I get 2 maybe even 3 of these
Come from space
To teach you of the pliedes
Can't stop the spirits when they need you
This life is more than just a read thru
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfOdWSiyWoc
FOE20
Sweet talk but don't intimidate her
Can't stop the gods from engineering
Feel no need for any interfering
Your image in the dictionary
This life is more than ordinary
Can I get 2 maybe even 3 of these
Come from space
To teach you of the pliedes
Can't stop the spirits when they need you
This life is more than just a read thru
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfOdWSiyWoc
FOE20
The thought had occurred to me quite some time ago, not so much that it was planned out but that both of you were necessary for this conversation to have any true meaning. We must have the antagonist and the protagonist. Both of you are equally necessary or else the point is lost, so despite who is right and who is wrong we all learn by virtue of the fact that we have the two sides of the coin necessary to give us the complete picture. Without either one of you the truth is lost. Reminded me of Plato's Republic and/or Descartes Discourse on Method. I think both of you are equally responsible for any good that comes from this thread. I repped you both for that exact reason. If you wish to continue of course you may do so, but I think the important points have been made. Thank you to everyone that contributed to this thread. I think we all understand just how vital this conversation is to the evolution of our beloved plant and those that choose to work with it.
M.
Blame it on the smart phone...
Blame it on the smart phone...
Ok, to get this thread back on track... I hope this makes sense I am fucking tired LOL
silverhazefiend,
obviously a lot of people have expressed that they have similar opinions as yours on this subject... so I am going to post as if your opinion represents as consensus view of the general customer who does his homework on a strain, breeder and retailer before purchasing I first want to address the two phrases of yours I quoted... then I will continue to give my explanation on why I think the seed industry is like you said and at the end I will share what I think may happen to the industry and the type of breeders we may see if thing don't change and the way that it may change... and leave it open for discussion
So this is what I got from this first paragraph... the customers have a problem when breeders take readily available seed strains... make limited population selections (say maybe 10-20 seeds total, between two strains) just select a single male, who knows what kind of selection criteria they used to make the selection, a lot of time I hear guys say things like "the fastest flowering" and or "the most vigorous growing male" is how they select, then pollinate 1-2 females and bam call it an F1 hybrid... no 3rd party test grows... no working the strain (f2, f3, s1, s2, s3 etc etc) and 10 bucks a seed or more to boot... like what the fuck for, right?
valid opinion of the marketplace IMO... most (or maybe a lot) do just make F1s. they bust them out at excessive prices and they also make numerous and numerous different F1 strains that there is no way they could ever work all of them. Usually their breeding program is something like female "A" crossed with male "B" makes strain "C" and they always can easily and usually do just pop another 10-20 seeds from line "D," pick another male from line "D" and grow some females from strain "C" and now they sell "D" male pollinating "A", "B" and "C" females all just with possibly two closets on the opposite sides of the house and pollen control precautions...
so four brand new varieties from a seed makers first run
variety "A" x variety "B" = variety "C"
variety "B" x variety "D" = variety "E"
variety "A" x variety "D" = variety "F"
variety "C" x variety "D" = variety "G"...
they could have selected a "C" male also and made five more strains if they had more space, another spot or just the next round like 2 -3 months later... and just keep going adding more males to the stable to pollinate all their females producing more and more F1s exponentially if they were of a mind to... as well as maintain those lines as long as they can keep the males alive.
The second paragraph, I think (this is would be up weirds ally) has to deal with... the informed customers dislike towards breeders... hyping new and special - hard to get strains... ... building the customers anticipation of a new release... so they can save their money... so they can get their expectations high thinking and hearing about how great it is going to be, when the strain hasn't been tested or maybe even made yet... breeders just "stirring the pot"... and the "fanboy" attitude guys who are so die hard loyal and supportive of the seed maker who virtually does no work and just hacks out f1 after f1.
again accurate observations... part of this though I believe relative to the saying "any publicity is good publicity" and even many of real legit breeders will get into controversies, say outlandish things and create hoopla in threads simply just to grab attention 'cause a certain percentage of those that get their attention grabbed are going to be intrigued by said breeders products, attitude or knowledge and possibly buy their products which is always good around growing season... errrmhmmm
but the other types of activities usually have a more sinister type of feel from them... like building up those expectations and the anticipation until the poor customer almost will not believe it isn't everything they ever wanted from it and even get defensive when someone tells them it's not what they think it is or wasnt worth the money and that they got ripped off.
then... how do people get all swept up and go with the whims of hype and believe whatever their favorite breeder says about his strains and are so "star struck?" I think it has to do with the type of society we live in today... every TV show isn't just a show with actors its "REALITY" with real people and combined with social networking/ social media people are immersed with their favorite multi media and whoever they are a fan of. What I have noticed through youtube is that with all the Facebook twitter instagram youtube and reality TV people are becoming more and more interested the actually people and their real lives and personalities almost more so than they care about how good they are at their work (be it acting, music, art, sports.... Cannabis breeders I guess?) it's like the fans wanna feel like they know them and are their friends or something ... I dunno its kinda weird to me.
to me these two factors... the way some breeders pump out f1s as fast as they can and use misinformation and lies... and the technologically interconnected and fanatically obsessed culture we currently live in... come together to create mostly polar opposite types of breeders (of course there are grey areas)... the ones I spoke of above who create new F1s all the time using fancy hyped mothers and or simply selected seed stock from small populations and have a gang of groupies (which I'll label the trendy breeders)... then the ones who actually work their strains over years, they don't change up what they are doing to cater to the latest fad, and because they take time to select and produce their strains they usually can only offer a half dozen or so per breeder, the same ones they have offered for years (which I'll label the legitimate breeders)...
That's right blame it on the smart phone and the super clingfan culture they and social media/networking has created...
lets compare marketing strategies...
cell phone companies (and to some extent society) want you to feel like you NEED a smart phone... to be able use all the neet little apps... keep up to date on twitter subscriptions or whatever etc etc... to feel cool, accepted, more successful, maybe even more attractive to women... all compared to old school nokia flip phone that doesnt even have a camera...
similarly to how cell phone companies want you to think that smart phones are necessary and are the best thing ever... a lot of breeders would have you think that, and it seems as though most customers do believe that, F1s are Ideal. The trendy breeders have you believe that f1s are more stable and therefor there will be less phenotypic variation among the F1 plants... but that is not necessarily true... F1s are breeding material, when done right the F3s and F4s etc will show higher frequencies of the desired traits than would the original F1s. When in actuality the only reason the seed makers want you to think that you should be buying F1s is that they are cheaper and easier to make and take less work skill and knowhow to produce... so in the end they can still charge top dollar and make a bunch more money!
the trendy breeders are also coming out with the newest latest and greatest variation... weather they will pollinate their "proven winner" female with a different male or come across a new female and want to mix it with their "time tested stud" or whatever they almost always have something to tease their fans with some minor improvement or variation in taste or high or whatever they wanna claim... then everyone does the speculative talk thing... hyping... maybe parent plants are shown...
Then there is a release date...
everyone is ready, they've got their money saved, the anticipation is palpable and the expectations are higher than ever before based on all the info they have heard... they camp for nearly a full day to be one of the first in line and are so excited to get the newest release with its new features they are gonna be the first of their friends with ..........Super Sour BlueBerry from cool head beans.............Oh huh...?
I bet you thought I got confused and starting talking about an iPhone 5 release date... you know those people who have a perfectly good iPhone 4 that they paid good money for but the new iPhone has an adjustable backlight a relocated head phones jack and .25 inch larger display screen... so they have to get it with the new improvements... and they probably had each gen of iPhone before this one too.
you may still be asking yourself... what the fuck does an iPhone junky have to do with the state of cannabis breeding?
well because... this constant consumer culture were we upgrade everything every six months to a year... were we are nearly conditioned to mindlessly want want want want... we become fanatic over other human beings and follow their accomplishments... so happens in this type of culture is people enjoy having the newest/best gadgets... and in that same way, they enjoy finding the newest strains and ones that maybe be limited and or just be the first to grow it in their area... so they will be on the very next thing that gets released too... and some get very fanatical about who they buy their beans from like people get over their favorite celebrities on twitter or whatever
and what happens to the legitimate breeder the guy that does the breeding the right way and works his strains until they are really actually something... he only has 5 -6 strains, none of them are F1s and they are the same ones he has had for years...
so the customer doesn't get the F1 that they think that they want because the trendy breeders told them so , nor do they get the hot new fresh stuff based off the most hyped clones of the moment that they crave... from the legitimate breeder
so to the less informed customer, they look at the knowledgable experienced breeder with strains that he has worked and offered for years and years, like someone today looks at........... an old nokia flip phone... and sees the trendy hack job breeder as the newest smart phone
but where is the logic?... no one really NEEDS a smart phone (hell I don't even really need a cell phone) so why go waste money on a new smart phone and just all for the thrill of having something shiny and new... and the foreseeable consequence to mindless following and compulsive consumption will only lead to a bunch perfectly good nokia flip phones sitting going to waste while most everyone goes with the trendy smart phones with all the latest fancy gear
(^^I am speaking metaphorically here for anyone who can't tell)
the main point is customers control the demand and the breeders simply do their best to supply that demand... if more growers wise up and realized that F1s arent the best and that they should demand more breeders work their strains and stop paying high prices for simple F1 hybrids... then I think the hacks would cease to exist... and we will begin to see more well worked strains from better breeders...
or conversely...
if seed customers continue to play fanboy and buy all the new hyped F1s their favorite hacks put out, then eventually I think that possibly every commercial seed breeder would have to adapt... be active on social media and sell F1s to their "followers" just to stay in business... thereby effectively making the legitimate breeder extinct and all we'd be left with are trendy hacks that just looking for the next fad to exploit and make some easy money
I do like new varieties... but I don't need a smartphone and other than breeding I don't need F1s either... If I am going to spend good money on seeds I want something that has had some selection work done on it.
opinions?
discuss....
Blame it on the smart phone...
Ok, to get this thread back on track... I hope this makes sense I am fucking tired LOL
silverhazefiend,
obviously a lot of people have expressed that they have similar opinions as yours on this subject... so I am going to post as if your opinion represents as consensus view of the general customer who does his homework on a strain, breeder and retailer before purchasing I first want to address the two phrases of yours I quoted... then I will continue to give my explanation on why I think the seed industry is like you said and at the end I will share what I think may happen to the industry and the type of breeders we may see if thing don't change and the way that it may change... and leave it open for discussion
So this is what I got from this first paragraph... the customers have a problem when breeders take readily available seed strains... make limited population selections (say maybe 10-20 seeds total, between two strains) just select a single male, who knows what kind of selection criteria they used to make the selection, a lot of time I hear guys say things like "the fastest flowering" and or "the most vigorous growing male" is how they select, then pollinate 1-2 females and bam call it an F1 hybrid... no 3rd party test grows... no working the strain (f2, f3, s1, s2, s3 etc etc) and 10 bucks a seed or more to boot... like what the fuck for, right?
valid opinion of the marketplace IMO... most (or maybe a lot) do just make F1s. they bust them out at excessive prices and they also make numerous and numerous different F1 strains that there is no way they could ever work all of them. Usually their breeding program is something like female "A" crossed with male "B" makes strain "C" and they always can easily and usually do just pop another 10-20 seeds from line "D," pick another male from line "D" and grow some females from strain "C" and now they sell "D" male pollinating "A", "B" and "C" females all just with possibly two closets on the opposite sides of the house and pollen control precautions...
so four brand new varieties from a seed makers first run
variety "A" x variety "B" = variety "C"
variety "B" x variety "D" = variety "E"
variety "A" x variety "D" = variety "F"
variety "C" x variety "D" = variety "G"...
they could have selected a "C" male also and made five more strains if they had more space, another spot or just the next round like 2 -3 months later... and just keep going adding more males to the stable to pollinate all their females producing more and more F1s exponentially if they were of a mind to... as well as maintain those lines as long as they can keep the males alive.
The second paragraph, I think (this is would be up weirds ally) has to deal with... the informed customers dislike towards breeders... hyping new and special - hard to get strains... ... building the customers anticipation of a new release... so they can save their money... so they can get their expectations high thinking and hearing about how great it is going to be, when the strain hasn't been tested or maybe even made yet... breeders just "stirring the pot"... and the "fanboy" attitude guys who are so die hard loyal and supportive of the seed maker who virtually does no work and just hacks out f1 after f1.
again accurate observations... part of this though I believe relative to the saying "any publicity is good publicity" and even many of real legit breeders will get into controversies, say outlandish things and create hoopla in threads simply just to grab attention 'cause a certain percentage of those that get their attention grabbed are going to be intrigued by said breeders products, attitude or knowledge and possibly buy their products which is always good around growing season... errrmhmmm
but the other types of activities usually have a more sinister type of feel from them... like building up those expectations and the anticipation until the poor customer almost will not believe it isn't everything they ever wanted from it and even get defensive when someone tells them it's not what they think it is or wasnt worth the money and that they got ripped off.
then... how do people get all swept up and go with the whims of hype and believe whatever their favorite breeder says about his strains and are so "star struck?" I think it has to do with the type of society we live in today... every TV show isn't just a show with actors its "REALITY" with real people and combined with social networking/ social media people are immersed with their favorite multi media and whoever they are a fan of. What I have noticed through youtube is that with all the Facebook twitter instagram youtube and reality TV people are becoming more and more interested the actually people and their real lives and personalities almost more so than they care about how good they are at their work (be it acting, music, art, sports.... Cannabis breeders I guess?) it's like the fans wanna feel like they know them and are their friends or something ... I dunno its kinda weird to me.
to me these two factors... the way some breeders pump out f1s as fast as they can and use misinformation and lies... and the technologically interconnected and fanatically obsessed culture we currently live in... come together to create mostly polar opposite types of breeders (of course there are grey areas)... the ones I spoke of above who create new F1s all the time using fancy hyped mothers and or simply selected seed stock from small populations and have a gang of groupies (which I'll label the trendy breeders)... then the ones who actually work their strains over years, they don't change up what they are doing to cater to the latest fad, and because they take time to select and produce their strains they usually can only offer a half dozen or so per breeder, the same ones they have offered for years (which I'll label the legitimate breeders)...
Blame it on the smart phone...
Say what!? what does a smart phone have to do with breeding, the cannabis seed market and all the fucked up shit people do to cash in?That's right blame it on the smart phone and the super clingfan culture they and social media/networking has created...
lets compare marketing strategies...
cell phone companies (and to some extent society) want you to feel like you NEED a smart phone... to be able use all the neet little apps... keep up to date on twitter subscriptions or whatever etc etc... to feel cool, accepted, more successful, maybe even more attractive to women... all compared to old school nokia flip phone that doesnt even have a camera...
similarly to how cell phone companies want you to think that smart phones are necessary and are the best thing ever... a lot of breeders would have you think that, and it seems as though most customers do believe that, F1s are Ideal. The trendy breeders have you believe that f1s are more stable and therefor there will be less phenotypic variation among the F1 plants... but that is not necessarily true... F1s are breeding material, when done right the F3s and F4s etc will show higher frequencies of the desired traits than would the original F1s. When in actuality the only reason the seed makers want you to think that you should be buying F1s is that they are cheaper and easier to make and take less work skill and knowhow to produce... so in the end they can still charge top dollar and make a bunch more money!
the trendy breeders are also coming out with the newest latest and greatest variation... weather they will pollinate their "proven winner" female with a different male or come across a new female and want to mix it with their "time tested stud" or whatever they almost always have something to tease their fans with some minor improvement or variation in taste or high or whatever they wanna claim... then everyone does the speculative talk thing... hyping... maybe parent plants are shown...
Then there is a release date...
everyone is ready, they've got their money saved, the anticipation is palpable and the expectations are higher than ever before based on all the info they have heard... they camp for nearly a full day to be one of the first in line and are so excited to get the newest release with its new features they are gonna be the first of their friends with ..........Super Sour BlueBerry from cool head beans.............Oh huh...?
I bet you thought I got confused and starting talking about an iPhone 5 release date... you know those people who have a perfectly good iPhone 4 that they paid good money for but the new iPhone has an adjustable backlight a relocated head phones jack and .25 inch larger display screen... so they have to get it with the new improvements... and they probably had each gen of iPhone before this one too.
you may still be asking yourself... what the fuck does an iPhone junky have to do with the state of cannabis breeding?
well because... this constant consumer culture were we upgrade everything every six months to a year... were we are nearly conditioned to mindlessly want want want want... we become fanatic over other human beings and follow their accomplishments... so happens in this type of culture is people enjoy having the newest/best gadgets... and in that same way, they enjoy finding the newest strains and ones that maybe be limited and or just be the first to grow it in their area... so they will be on the very next thing that gets released too... and some get very fanatical about who they buy their beans from like people get over their favorite celebrities on twitter or whatever
and what happens to the legitimate breeder the guy that does the breeding the right way and works his strains until they are really actually something... he only has 5 -6 strains, none of them are F1s and they are the same ones he has had for years...
so the customer doesn't get the F1 that they think that they want because the trendy breeders told them so , nor do they get the hot new fresh stuff based off the most hyped clones of the moment that they crave... from the legitimate breeder
so to the less informed customer, they look at the knowledgable experienced breeder with strains that he has worked and offered for years and years, like someone today looks at........... an old nokia flip phone... and sees the trendy hack job breeder as the newest smart phone
but where is the logic?... no one really NEEDS a smart phone (hell I don't even really need a cell phone) so why go waste money on a new smart phone and just all for the thrill of having something shiny and new... and the foreseeable consequence to mindless following and compulsive consumption will only lead to a bunch perfectly good nokia flip phones sitting going to waste while most everyone goes with the trendy smart phones with all the latest fancy gear
(^^I am speaking metaphorically here for anyone who can't tell)
the main point is customers control the demand and the breeders simply do their best to supply that demand... if more growers wise up and realized that F1s arent the best and that they should demand more breeders work their strains and stop paying high prices for simple F1 hybrids... then I think the hacks would cease to exist... and we will begin to see more well worked strains from better breeders...
or conversely...
if seed customers continue to play fanboy and buy all the new hyped F1s their favorite hacks put out, then eventually I think that possibly every commercial seed breeder would have to adapt... be active on social media and sell F1s to their "followers" just to stay in business... thereby effectively making the legitimate breeder extinct and all we'd be left with are trendy hacks that just looking for the next fad to exploit and make some easy money
I do like new varieties... but I don't need a smartphone and other than breeding I don't need F1s either... If I am going to spend good money on seeds I want something that has had some selection work done on it.
opinions?
discuss....
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Haze mixed with a broadleaf Mexican can give this kind of pheno's.
Sometimes it looks like Haze but isn't
Keep on growing
rhinoman 1
Active member
Great Thread Guys Keep it comming.
rhinoman 1
Active member
Stepin it up.
Please don't take it as a detraction or an attack on value. I won't even bring this topic into breeder value. I found a book that poses the question and poses the answers to the questions I asked. You can't read it unless you want to spend the dough. This title seems the most straight forward title correlating to it.
Annicchiarico, P. (2002) Genotype x Environment Interactions: Challenges and Opportunities for Plant Breeding and Cultivar Recommendations..
I would love to understand the challenges and opportunities in regards to cannabis.breeding
Reptile cultivars replicate ecosystems and exploit cues. Some species need specific environmental replications to breed. The indoor grower putting plants on a 12/12 schedule is an manipulating an environmental cue. How does our control over these cues effect our ability to express or suppress pehnotypes/chemotypes in selection
here is an example of what might cause challenge breeders, the regression of phenotype expression indoors and I am curious of the ramification
say I am selecting "best of" from a hearty strain (i want to preserve its natural phenotype variations) that on average produces a 8' plant and plant sizes range typically from 6' -10'and I put them indoors even in great numbers but the environment only supports a 4' plant wont this make it real difficult to distinguish difference based on that trait?
Does selection on that trait still become a factor if it will not be bred for any other environment?
If i am the said breeder and those seeds are JUST for me and all i want to do is have something that likes the environment I provided I ASSUME no big issue
BUT
If I am breeding for others and someone wants seed for outdoors and I am going by the numbers YET haven't gotten the phenotypes to express right so I can select based on them will I have the same success as someone who grows in an environment that the phenotypes in the example i gave above (8' plant average 6'-10') range express more readily?
I think environment in this example could shoot the breeder in the foot REGARDLESS of plant numbers, because the trait the person buying the seed may desire the breeder could not see expressed thus could not select based on it
or am I incorrect in my way of thinking?
Annicchiarico, P. (2002) Genotype x Environment Interactions: Challenges and Opportunities for Plant Breeding and Cultivar Recommendations..
I would love to understand the challenges and opportunities in regards to cannabis.breeding
Reptile cultivars replicate ecosystems and exploit cues. Some species need specific environmental replications to breed. The indoor grower putting plants on a 12/12 schedule is an manipulating an environmental cue. How does our control over these cues effect our ability to express or suppress pehnotypes/chemotypes in selection
here is an example of what might cause challenge breeders, the regression of phenotype expression indoors and I am curious of the ramification
say I am selecting "best of" from a hearty strain (i want to preserve its natural phenotype variations) that on average produces a 8' plant and plant sizes range typically from 6' -10'and I put them indoors even in great numbers but the environment only supports a 4' plant wont this make it real difficult to distinguish difference based on that trait?
Does selection on that trait still become a factor if it will not be bred for any other environment?
If i am the said breeder and those seeds are JUST for me and all i want to do is have something that likes the environment I provided I ASSUME no big issue
BUT
If I am breeding for others and someone wants seed for outdoors and I am going by the numbers YET haven't gotten the phenotypes to express right so I can select based on them will I have the same success as someone who grows in an environment that the phenotypes in the example i gave above (8' plant average 6'-10') range express more readily?
I think environment in this example could shoot the breeder in the foot REGARDLESS of plant numbers, because the trait the person buying the seed may desire the breeder could not see expressed thus could not select based on it
or am I incorrect in my way of thinking?
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