Epigenetis vs. Cloning technique.

[Chester]

OK, after wading through the "Clone of a clone of a clone....." thread, I encountered the "Epigenetics" post, and that got me thinking about an unusual clone growth pattern I get with a particular SSH.

One SSH mother will produce clones with a "fan" growth pattern. I'm using "fan growth" to describe a plant that only branches on 2 sides. A 2-dimensional plant if you will.

I think it may be the result of my technique, as not all clones from that mother produce fans. And I have some suspicions about what I'm doing that makes the "fans".

So far, other varieties and a sister SSH plant do not produce "fans" with the identical cloning technique. Though I'm now trying to intentionally duplicate the path to the "origin of that mother" it just to see if my theory is correct.

For some reason, the "fan" plants are much more productive than a "normal" cutting. (About a 25% improvement)

I've done some searching and have seen no mentions of "fan growth" patterns in clones (cuttings). Has anyone else ever encountered anything similar??

I found this information @ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epigenetic_inheritance

Uhg, it is another wikipedia link

"The molecular basis of epigenetics is complex. It involves modifications of the activation of certain genes, but not the basic structure of DNA. Additionally, the chromatin proteins associated with DNA may be activated or silenced. This accounts for why the differentiated cells in a multi-cellular organism express only the genes that are necessary for their own activity. Epigenetic changes are preserved when cells divide. Most epigenetic changes only occur within the course of one individual organism's lifetime, but, if a mutation in the DNA has been caused in sperm or egg cell that results in fertilization, then some epigenetic changes are inherited from one generation to the next.[9] This raises the question of whether or not epigenetic changes in an organism can alter the basic structure of its DNA (see Evolution, below), a form of Lamarckism."

"Epigenetic changes are preserved when cells divide"

If epigenetic changes are preserved when cells divide, is it not plausible that a Cannabis plant could undergo an epigenetic change that would be passed on from cell to cell as the plant grew? Thus changing the cells of the limbs from which the cuttings are taken, therefor passing the change to the clone and that clone growing with each cell passing the epigenetic change carrying the change into the clone line?

"Most epigenetic changes only occur within the course of one individual organism's lifetime," If a plant from seed is cloned and that clone is cloned and this is done for 20 years, Is the 20 year old clone NOT the same plant as the first plant?

An epigenetic change could be viewed by us as positive or negative but a change none the less.

This is of course noting that no change in the DNA sequence ever took place as it would no longer be considered epigenetic.

Don't get me wrong I am just asking questions concerning what could happen and am not making claims I have observed it happen or am trying to use this info to explain why some people feel like they have observed clone degradation.

Stay Safe

 

[AFGHANICA79]

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[desertsquirrel]

the leaf patterns your referring too are called opposite (petioles emerge from 2 opposing sides of the stem) and whorled (encircle the stem). they are used in taxonomy to identify species. I have never seen these patterns change, as they are used to define one species from an other. can you post some pics please?

 

[Sheriff Bart]

no it goes
alternate leaves = 1 leaf/node
opposite= 2 leaf/node
whorled=3+leaf/node

cannabis starts out opposite from seed but takes on an alternate growth pattern when mature


epigenetics is still in its infancy in terms of understanding the true ramifications of it but dna methylations lead to changes in the transcription of genes or other dna/rna based products


but when you look at the morphology of a plant you have to understand the roles of hormones like auxins in establishing growth patterns like apical dominance, cell growth, etc.
but it sounds like you had a mutation arise and have been propagatin it. thats not epigenetics. take a pic of your nodes.

 

[Chester]

Ok, maybe my terminology is unclear.

What I am calling a "fan" can be thought of as like a bird feather. Instead of the branching occurring in all directions around the stem, the branches only form on two opposite sides only. Feather style and oddly flat looking. The branches are staggered (asymmetric) and still 180 degrees apart.

And all those "fans" are about an hour away at the moment. I'll get a photo.

I think that particular mother cutting was taken from the branch of a branch higher-up (more than 6" from the base) on the original seedling. (It was quite a while ago, yet one of the very few very large/long vegged seedlings I ever harvested so heavily for cuttings ~30-40 cuts) Tip cuttings from that mother grow normally. Cuttings from inner shoots seem to produce the fan pattern.

Only cuttings from that one SSH. Everything from a sister SSH seedling's cuttings grow normally.

I'm trying to duplicate it with any other variety. No success so far. I'll have to pop-off some seeds to see if it has something to do with the extended veg of a seedling. And the branch of a branch....

Due to a youthful, overly randy Calizahr, I have some seeds from both SSH ladies offspring (fan-prone and fan-proof) and they've been kept separate. I wish it had been a randy SSH, but you can't have everything. At least it may be possible to see if the trait is heritable.

Stay safe.