electrical concerns

[pseudostelariae]

3 months ago i set up a 4.5 x 9 tent running a 100w 6" vortex fan and 2 600w lights. also in the room i have a laptop and speakers.

everything was going fine until yesterday when the lights turned off unexpectedly. i checked and the outlets should be able to handle 1500w and i'm 200 shy of that on a single outlet. my roommates space heater runs 1500w and doesn't blow anything out in other rooms.

why is this happening? when i checked it out the ballasts were way hotter than usual and the surge protector and outlet were both also very hot, the outlet having evidence of melting/burning.

could it be that i live in a very old house and the wiring is about shot? there are only like 7 breakers for the entire house so i'm assuming most of these outlets are sharing one.

any input is appreciated.

 

[pseudostelariae]

i just tried unplugging one of the 600s and it ran for about an hour before shutting off again. happens with 2 different surge protected outlet strips. how is it that all of a sudden this is a problem? i haven't changed anything. in fact, i used to run an additional 6" inline fan without any problem.

 

[johndoe123]

Space heaters use 1500 watts when they are on hi. Is there any way to run a drop cord from a lesser used circuit to your grow space? If you do just make sure you get one that is 10 gauge heavy duty. Also an amp clamp will help ya figure out your draw on different circuits. You should only be using 2/3 draw to what the breaker is rated for

 

[pseudostelariae]

thank you! yes, tomorrow i will be trying another cord from a far away outlet to split up the load in hopes that lights on happens without any problem. i'll have to pick up an amp clamp and see what's going on. if i can't get this figured out i'll either have to get an electrician and eat the cost or talk to the landlord. even though i'm OMMP and 100% legal, i'd rather fix this in-house...

 

[Shovelhandle]

You should use not more than 80% of the circuit rating. Is the circuit on a 15 or 20 amp breaker? Where is the interruption, the circuit breaker in the panelboard or one of the strips? What else goes out when the circuit trips? 10 AWG (american wire gauge) is not necessary on a 15 or 20 amp circuit unless one needs to run a very long distance. Use a heavy duty cord, 12 AWG for up to 2000W and 14 AWG for up to 1400 watts, just don't use any longer cord than you need. I run a little over 1000 watts of light plus fans on a new 20 amp circuit (new breaker, wire and receptacle). The ballasts do get hot (220ºF) this is normal. Do be very careful. Check for loose plug/receptacle connections. This can be dangerous but this usually won't cause the breaker to trip. Can you get an electrician to check it out? Maybe use the 1500w heater on your circuit and check the circuit breaker. A breaker should not be above 130º with a full load. A loose connection at the breaker, either the breaker into the panel stab or the wire terminal will cause high temperature that could trip the breaker. If the breaker is tripping under less than full load and there are no loose connection problems the breaker could be 'weak' and should be replaced. I'm not addressing possible arc faults as you mentioned the house wiring is old. Arc fault breakers are new technology and are required for just about all outlets in the home now. I'm an electrician and infrared thermographer and this is right up my alley. Unfortunately, we can't do much troubleshooting over the internet. Good luck, be careful.

 

[pseudostelariae]

You should use not more than 80% of the circuit rating. Is the circuit on a 15 or 20 amp breaker? Where is the interruption, the circuit breaker in the panelboard or one of the strips? What else goes out when the circuit trips? 10 AWG (american wire gauge) is not necessary on a 15 or 20 amp circuit unless one needs to run a very long distance. Use a heavy duty cord, 12 AWG for up to 2000W and 14 AWG for up to 1400 watts, just don't use any longer cord than you need. I run a little over 1000 watts of light plus fans on a new 20 amp circuit (new breaker, wire and receptacle). The ballasts do get hot (220ºF) this is normal. Do be very careful. Check for loose plug/receptacle connections. This can be dangerous but this usually won't cause the breaker to trip. Can you get an electrician to check it out? Maybe use the 1500w heater on your circuit and check the circuit breaker. A breaker should not be above 130º with a full load. A loose connection at the breaker, either the breaker into the panel stab or the wire terminal will cause high temperature that could trip the breaker. If the breaker is tripping under less than full load and there are no loose connection problems the breaker could be 'weak' and should be replaced. I'm not addressing possible arc faults as you mentioned the house wiring is old. Arc fault breakers are new technology and are required for just about all outlets in the home now. I'm an electrician and infrared thermographer and this is right up my alley. Unfortunately, we can't do much troubleshooting over the internet. Good luck, be careful.

thanks for the input! i just checked the outlet and it is indeed very loose. i can almost pull it out of the wall. in fact a few of them are. i feel like an idiot i didn't notice this already. when i initially set everything up i made sure it was running full blast just in case i ever had to run both fans and it worked fine, plugged in the space heater to see what would happen and it was a blackout. breaker didn't trip but surge protectors did. i figured that meant since i wasn't running a full load with just the tent, i'd be fine so long as i avoided any additional electronics.

when the lights go out, the surge protector on the power strip does its thing while the CFL plugged into the other outlet stays on. the breaker isn't tripping whatsoever and the other outlets in the room are unaffected. apparently i AM running too much power in this room so i will be diverting from other outlets and will do my best to find cords that are long/heavy duty enough without excessive length.

right now everything is unplugged and the plants are having an early bedtime. since nothing on the circuit breaker is labeled, would it be wise to flip them until i find which cuts power to my room and then look and possibly tighten things up? obviously i have no idea what i'm doing and the closest i can get to an electrician without either going around the landlord and calling one or just getting her involved is another roommate who briefly worked under a licensed electrician. i'll see what he has to say a little later in the morning.

 

[johndoe123]

You should use not more than 80% of the circuit rating. Is the circuit on a 15 or 20 amp breaker? Where is the interruption, the circuit breaker in the panelboard or one of the strips? What else goes out when the circuit trips? 10 AWG (american wire gauge) is not necessary on a 15 or 20 amp circuit unless one needs to run a very long distance. Use a heavy duty cord, 12 AWG for up to 2000W and 14 AWG for up to 1400 watts, just don't use any longer cord than you need. I run a little over 1000 watts of light plus fans on a new 20 amp circuit (new breaker, wire and receptacle). The ballasts do get hot (220ºF) this is normal. Do be very careful. Check for loose plug/receptacle connections. This can be dangerous but this usually won't cause the breaker to trip. Can you get an electrician to check it out? Maybe use the 1500w heater on your circuit and check the circuit breaker. A breaker should not be above 130º with a full load. A loose connection at the breaker, either the breaker into the panel stab or the wire terminal will cause high temperature that could trip the breaker. If the breaker is tripping under less than full load and there are no loose connection problems the breaker could be 'weak' and should be replaced. I'm not addressing possible arc faults as you mentioned the house wiring is old. Arc fault breakers are new technology and are required for just about all outlets in the home now. I'm an electrician and infrared thermographer and this is right up my alley. Unfortunately, we can't do much troubleshooting over the internet. Good luck, be careful.

Listen to this guy I am a bricklayer by trade My advice was not very far off though. I always try to err on the side of caution when it comes to electricity

 

[rives]

When Shovelhandle mentioned the receptacle being loose, he was not talking about how the receptacle was mounted in the wall, he was talking about the wires being loose in the back of the receptacle. Many cheap receptacles just use a push-in, spring-loaded arrangement to terminate the wires. These should be changed out to "commercial" or "specification" grade components which use screws to make the connection. Also, make sure that the receptacles are not worn out - it should take some effort to insert the plug, and the plug should stay tight to the wall rather than sagging down from the weight of the cord.

 

[Shovelhandle]

When Shovelhandle mentioned the receptacle being loose, he was not talking about how the receptacle was mounted in the wall, he was talking about the wires being loose in the back of the receptacle. Many cheap receptacles just use a push-in, spring-loaded arrangement to terminate the wires. These should be changed out to "commercial" or "specification" grade components which use screws to make the connection. Also, make sure that the receptacles are not worn out - it should take some effort to insert the plug, and the plug should stay tight to the wall rather than sagging down from the weight of the cord.

Yut, that's it. The wires must be tight and the receptacle must grab the plug firmly. There is a tool an electrician can use to measure the pull-out force but It's not commonly used, you can tell pretty much if it's tight or loose. I have an infrared imaging camera and I've checked out my grow equipment for excessive heating. I was not comfortable with (2) 400 watt HPS on one timer, not to mention the fans and air pump so I run two timers set the same. I have the (2) 400 watt HIDs, a 216 watt T-5HO fixture, a box fan, an exhaust fan all running on one 20 amp circuit with no issues. No heating ant the recepticles, the wiring or the breaker. All this load is less than 10 amps or 50% of capacity.

 

[Jhhnn]

When Shovelhandle mentioned the receptacle being loose, he was not talking about how the receptacle was mounted in the wall, he was talking about the wires being loose in the back of the receptacle. Many cheap receptacles just use a push-in, spring-loaded arrangement to terminate the wires. These should be changed out to "commercial" or "specification" grade components which use screws to make the connection. Also, make sure that the receptacles are not worn out - it should take some effort to insert the plug, and the plug should stay tight to the wall rather than sagging down from the weight of the cord.

Indeed. Your advice is always excellent. The high continuous current draw of grow equipment will bring out any weaknesses in the house wiring.

The described symptoms seem exactly like the usual low voltage/ high current over heating situation caused by a faulty connection. I'd start with an inspection/ new receptacle at the outlet box, work from there. Unfortunately, there's a pretty steep learning curve for people not familiar with the hardware & some tricky situations around aluminum wiring, too.

One of the smartest things growers can do is to inspect/ upgrade stuff like that before they start growing, take care of it or call in an electrician before he has to beat his way through the plants.

 

[johndoe123]

One of the smartest things growers can do is to inspect/ upgrade stuff like that before they start growing, take care of it or call in an electrician before he has to beat his way through the plants.

Very solid advice here. The house i bought up here in michigan had a new breaker box and new wire to the junction boxes but old wire to the outlets and old outlets. First thing i did was pull new wire to the outlets and install grounded outlets. I also run a mlc for my ballasts with new wire and a dedicated breaker right off the breaker box. With the draw of power the ballasts have they will exploit your weak link in no time....

 

[Jhhnn]

Very solid advice here. The house i bought up here in michigan had a new breaker box and new wire to the junction boxes but old wire to the outlets and old outlets. First thing i did was pull new wire to the outlets and install grounded outlets. I also run a mlc for my ballasts with new wire and a dedicated breaker right off the breaker box. With the draw of power the ballasts have they will exploit your weak link in no time....

Yep. I'm running a dedicated 10 ga 4 wire 240V circuit when I work over our modest personal growing system next summer. I'm also using a HVAC style control circuit w/ overheat shutdown. I'll create a plug in control box w/ fused outputs for each piece of equipment, both 240v & 120v. For those who can do so, it's only smart. On a circuit w/ other loads, even a single 1000w ballast can cause problems.

Having worked on high current electrical systems for years, I have enormous respect for over capacity wiring. It's never a problem. It's an asset. I'm amazed that the Code even allows for 15A/14ga outlets at all.

 

[rives]

I'm amazed that the Code even allows for 15A/14ga outlets at all.

That one's always surprised me, too. In any industrial electrical shop that I ever worked in, 14 gauge was the red-headed step child - too small for power circuits and too big for controls. For my own usage, I always run 12 gauge plug circuits.

 

[Lilcoco]

An easy non professional way to handle this would be to use another circuit for one of the 600's. You can have spikes in electricity useing hid s so I would not use up but 70% of the amperage available in the circuit.

 

[Jhhnn]

That one's always surprised me, too. In any industrial electrical shop that I ever worked in, 14 gauge was the red-headed step child - too small for power circuits and too big for controls. For my own usage, I always run 12 gauge plug circuits.

Yep. 14 ga outlet circuits like using 3/4" copper from the water main to the house. 1" or 1-1/8" works enormously better & the difference in price of materials is very small, yet 3/4" remains standard practice.

I've used #10 wire on a 20A breaker for garage/shop circuits w/ 20A receptacles. Bulletproof. Table saws, jointers & other relatively heavy motor loads start instantly.

 

[pseudostelariae]

An easy non professional way to handle this would be to use another circuit for one of the 600's. You can have spikes in electricity useing hid s so I would not use up but 70% of the amperage available in the circuit.

this is what i ended up doing. got another timer and split the 600s between two circuits and now everything seems to be working fine. thanks for the help! looking forward to putting together a room meant to handle this sort of thing

 

[farmari]

3 months ago i set up a 4.5 x 9 tent running a 100w 6" vortex fan and 2 600w lights. also in the room i have a laptop and speakers.

everything was going fine until yesterday when the lights turned off unexpectedly. i checked and the outlets should be able to handle 1500w and i'm 200 shy of that on a single outlet. my roommates space heater runs 1500w and doesn't blow anything out in other rooms.

why is this happening? when i checked it out the ballasts were way hotter than usual and the surge protector and outlet were both also very hot, the outlet having evidence of melting/burning.

could it be that i live in a very old house and the wiring is about shot? there are only like 7 breakers for the entire house so i'm assuming most of these outlets are sharing one.

any input is appreciated.

600w lamps use significantly more than 600w. I know mine at 120v use around 660w.

Surge protector? You're plugging +1400w continuous into a multi strip? That's a reallly bad idea..

And you don't know if there aren't any other outlets/lights/etc using this circuit?

This all sounds like an electrical fire waiting to happen. You really should hire an electrician to install a new dedicated circuit with a heavy duty timer.

 

[pseudostelariae]

600w lamps use significantly more than 600w. I know mine at 120v use around 660w.

Surge protector? You're plugging +1400w continuous into a multi strip? That's a reallly bad idea..

And you don't know if there aren't any other outlets/lights/etc using this circuit?

This all sounds like an electrical fire waiting to happen. You really should hire an electrician to install a new dedicated circuit with a heavy duty timer.

you're right. it's shameful how little i knew about electricity and the 1960s wiring in this house didn't help. currently the 600s are split between 2 different circuits on heavy duty timers and everything is running without getting too hot. i'll be hiring an electrician as soon as i'm staying put for a while. in the meantime, should be good to go

 

[GanjaplantaSTL]

It's very simple calculate ur amps of ur circuit with a clamp meter. If I were u I would rewire a new circuit bello do the calculations 600w/120v=5a*2=10a plus wtv extra stuff ur running its more then 80% of ur breaker of 15a .rewire 20a breaker with 20a outlet and 12 gauge wire.hope this helped u

 

[Jhhnn]

Dunno if I've mentioned it in this thread, but this is a really handy tool for growers-

http://www.amazon.com/P3-Internatio...=1395183387&sr=8-1&keywords=kill-a-watt+meter

With that, an outlet checker (a lamp, anything) plus pencil & paper, then a person can map their dwelling's electrical system, figure out the best way to spread the load.

It can be used for other calculations, like figuring out how much it costs to grow.

They have different models w/ different capabilities, probably one for 240V, as well.