Effective Microorganisms, aka EM

[secondtry]

Hey guys,

I have studied PnSB on and off for years, and I have personally isolated them and cultured them from the wild many times. AFAIK I am the first to the this with basic items in a DIY fashion. In nature PnSB are most commonly found active in anaerobic conditions, i.e., moist soil/swaps/wetlands, and about 5-10 inches below water and in the mud/gunk at bottom of water, PnSB are at that level floating in water (and in mud) so they can still get sunlight but are in as low O2 environ as they can find (within reason).

PnSB are tough and they can live in environments with low O2, but are after all they are anaerobes (yes I know what facultative means ) and they do best in low O2 environ. Besides, this isn't my main reason to say don't extend AEM into AEM; it's just a secondary reason and important (yet partial) cause of low PnSB numbers.

I am gonna shut up now until we have some plate counts.

 

[mad librettist]

Can you clear up a definition?

When we speak of an anaerobic metabolic process, we mean O is not the final receiver of the extra electron, right? But when we say anaerobic environment, we mean zero O2, right? Now when we say facultative anaerobe, do we mean an organism that can live around O2 that does not use O2 for metabolic processes, or do we mean an organism that can metabolise using more than one process (as in human muscle cells)?

Also, 2ndtry, I realise you have worked with PNSB, but from what i read, at least one species exists and grows under the conditions you described, in the environments you describe, but also in soil. It also can exist in complete darkness, and do quite well.

Now I know you've criticized my source, but this is a little diagram of the 4 ways R. palustris (latin for swamp btw) can metabolise. I'd like to know how it's wrong and what diagram should replace it, but I just can't find anything as a layman. But from this diagram I'd say both your experiences and those of Vinny Pinto (who can't be wrong about everything) make sense without negating each other.

One more thing: the references to Dr. Higa I've read talk about yeasts being important in EM. That to me adds a fungal component, but I'm not sure what else.

 

[secondtry]

Hey Mad.L.,

I'll try to help:
When I write of anaerobic condition I don't mean zero O2, or even close to it. But I do mean conditions not considered aerobic.

I know PnSB can 'eat' in darkness, I never said they couldn't. IIRC they only use Co2 as 'food' in the absence of light and I think they can also use heat for energy in absence of light. But they do best with light.

The graphs are not wrong, but the important you are putting on the O2 is IMO. I wrote PnSB can live in environs with O2, but not a lot of O2 as that would be aerobic conditions where PnSB don't' do well and can't thrive/live. The graph are not showing you how much O2 is present...

Vinny and I are not in disagreement about the anaerobic nature of PnSB; you are the only one who is in argument about it...

Aerobic verses anaerobic is not black and white, it's a gray-scale, hence the terms facultative and obligate with even more distinctions from there.

Oh yea, yeast isn't fungi, there are no fungi in EM. I am confused why you mentioned fungi. (like I said I'm hungry and been staring monitor for too long)


HTH Im off to make spaghetti

 

[secondtry]

RE: soil,

I didn't write they are not found in soil, I wrote that I isolated them from soil, but it is in moist soil, i.e., over ~70% moisture content which is considered by many to be anaerobic conditions in soil. IIRC PnSB can use the heat from soil for energy and is one reason they don't need light in soil.

HTH

 

[Trichgnomes]

Oh yea, yeast isn't fungi, there are no fungi in EM. I am confused why you mentioned fungi.

I was told recently that yeasts are classified as unicellular, non-filamentous fungi, i.e. no hyphae. This came from a university microbiology textbook, FWIW.

 

[secondtry]

Hey,

Nice catch, thanks. You are correct, I was referring to fungi with hyphae. It used to be incorrectly stated that "ray fungi" were in EM but IIRC it was really actinobacteria and that is where I got it into my head that EM has no fungi. Thanks.

 

[mad librettist]

I'll try to help:
When I write of anaerobic condition I don't mean zero O2, or even close to it. But I do mean conditions not considered aerobic.

We need a word for that.

I know PnSB can 'eat' in darkness, I never said they couldn't. IIRC they only use Co2 as 'food' in the absence of light. But they do best with light.

Am I reading the diagram wrong? Under "Photoautorophic"it seems to be using CO2

The graphs are not wrong, but the important you are putting on the O2 is IMO. I wrote PnSB can live in environs with O2, but not a lot of O2 as that would be aerobic conditions where PnSB don't' do well and can't thrive/live. The graph are not showing you how much O2 is present...

Ok I see your point.

Vinny and I are not in disagreement about the anaerobic nature of PnSB; you are the only one who is in argument about it...

I can't paste it, but if you read his advanced brewing guide, on page 58, first paragraph. I don't see O2 in those diagrams. It's not the anaerobic nature I'm quibbling, it's whether or not you can replicate them repeatedly, along with the other microbes in EM. Also, whether it's a good idea to always use a 1st generation brew. Basically I want to know what to do.

Aerobic verses anaerobic is not black and white, it's a gray-scale, hence the terms facultative and obligate with even more distinctions from there.

awesome.

Oh yea, yeast isn't fungi, there are no fungi in EM. I am confused why you mentioned fungi. (like I said I'm hungry and been staring monitor for too long)

I grew up learning yeast were Fungi. Wiki says

Yeasts are eukaryotic micro-organisms classified in the kingdom Fungi,

.

Spaghetti yum. I was bad today and slow cooked a corned beef brisket with blasckstrap and that spice that's in the meat in the good delis.

 

[mad librettist]

2ndtry, is actinobacter what causes the white filament? My last batch of bran, I had a white "fungus", that went all the way through, like blue cheese. EM america tells me it is normal.

 

[secondtry]

Hey,

Are you referring to baokashi? There should be not be anything that looks like blue cheese for filaments. Boakshi (like ensiling) is a low pH envrion where it's mostly LAB doing all the work. In all the bokashi and silage I have fermented I have yet to see what you are describe except when the boakshi was not sealed and air entered but in that case it was a white mold, not what you describe.

You should test the pH of the bokashi with the PourThru technique or find the pHw by dry soil method to know when it's 'ready'. The pH/pHw should be below 3.4. Smell the bokashi, it should be very pungent like pickles when it's fresh (at least that is how it smells to me)

Actinobacter? Hmmm, do you mean "acinetobacter" or "actinobacteria"? I think maybe they meant to tell you actinobacteria as they form what looks like filaments and where once called "actinomycetes". AFAIK acinetobacter would not be mistaken for blue cheese, nor would actinobacteria. But of those two I would think actinobacteria could be what the EM folks are referring to, even tho I think they are incorrect in that it's "normal" because it certainty is not.



HTH and GL

 

[secondtry]

Hey

I can't paste it, but if you read his advanced brewing guide, on page 58, first paragraph. I don't see O2 in those diagrams. It's not the anaerobic nature I'm quibbling, it's whether or not you can replicate them repeatedly, along with the other microbes in EM. Also, whether it's a good idea to always use a 1st generation brew. Basically I want to know what to do.

Well if you follow my suggestion you will be 'safe', and following the findings of all academic literature and studies I could find (mostly from Japan, esp. circa 1980's to today). By following Vinny's suggestion you are rolling the dice, maybe he's correct and maybe not, if not then you could be using sub-par AEM, at that point it could pretty much be the LAB serum from Gil Cardang (sp?), not AEM as it's supposed to be; but with my advise if I am incorrect you are no worse for wear, tho maybe short like 50 cents to a dollar (the cost of EM to make a gallon of AEM).

We need plate counts...

 

[Trichgnomes]

FWIW, second, I heeded the advice of VP via madlib, by upping the ratio to 1.5 : 1 : 20; EM : molasses : water. I believe Vinny came to this conclusion after doing various ratios, and testing in his lab. (Don't quote me on this one) He found this ratio to be optimal if one wishes to use the final product as a starter a couple times.

 

[secondtry]

Hey,

I think that might be mixed up, IIRC VP suggested upping the molasses, not the EM, tho I could be mistaken, regardless, IMO upping the molasses makes more sense as the microbes increase in number, the foodstuff does not, ie., 1:15 or 1:16 is the ratio of molasses:water at which I ferment, and VP suggested (I think) one could go as low as 1:10 for [sic] "extended ferments" (that is fermenting a single batch of AEM for weeks or months). The 1:1:20 EM:molasses:water is a rough guide but fermenting with more foodstuffs verses water is what I do for regular ferments and might be why I get fast pH drops and lots of microbial activity; also I use molasses with brix over 80 which is important and could also be why my AEM acts as it does...

I use 1:1.3:20 often (i.e., 1:15 molasses:water), or lower at 1:1.5:20

HTH, I am going to find my copy of Vinnies books and check them out again, but I don't remember any data offered by Vinny, or am I mistaken? Mad.L? Trichgnomes? MM?

 

[mad librettist]

actually I got that ratio from GANJA DIN, who shall not be named. (and apparently I got it wrong! let me check VP)

Trich, I did not mean the filament was blue. I meant it went all the way through. You know how you can tell spoiled blue cheese by looking to see if the mold goes through? Well this went through. My description though, was of white mold, not blue. I should have snapped a shot.

The bag I fermented in was sealed, and the seal held through fermentation, based on the pick up the bag and put it down test. You can see right away if the seal is bad. Also, that white mold smelled just great. I spread it all around before drying.

 

[Trichgnomes]

That liter can easily last a year, because if I start with EM:molasses:water at 1.5:1:20, I can actually use the second fermentation to make another, and another. Just like sourdough starters, it eventually has to be refreshed or it becomes local wild stuff. This product is the cheapest I have ever used.

I do not disagree with your logic necessarily, second, but I hope madlib was right simply for the sake of the integrity of my AEM.

 

[mad librettist]

ok I just double checked VP's book. Under the heading "sample recipe for a good quality batch" he gives a 1.5:1 EM:molasses ratio. He also emphasizes this when brewing with less than ideal containers like old fertilizer barrels.

Think about it. If degradation of the aggregate's integrity is a function of mathematical reality, starting with 1.5 instead of 1 is a huge difference. If you think in log, it's just huge - halfway to doubling. Upping the food instead would just amplify whatever faults are there at the start. When using extra food, I like to take VP's advice and add it after the initial fermentation, along with some more EM.

Trich, VP has a bunch of tests you can do to check, like rust removal. Maybe consider the book? Like my sig says, nobody can be wrong about everything.

BTW, I have a friend making bokashi out of 2nd gen AEM I made. He's getting all the right smells.

 

[Trichgnomes]

I don't know if this is way off base here, but could too much foodstock in an EM brew lead to a putrefaction rather than a fermentation?

I am going to find my copy of Vinnies books and check them out again, but I don't remember any data offered by Vinny, or am I mistaken? Mad.L? Trichgnomes? MM?

I don't personally have any of his books, but plan on getting the PDF soon. I did read something online in which he (Vinny) referenced "his laboratory."

 

[Trichgnomes]

BTW, I have a friend making bokashi out of 2nd gen AEM I made. He's getting all the right smells.

Good to hear. I plan on doing the same after this brew I started yesterday finishes.

 

[mad librettist]

I just wish I could copy and paste from this book. PDF won't let me.

But yeah, on page 131, the recipe is right there. 1.5:1.

2nd try, I suspect using so much sugar would favor the sugar eaters like yeast and LAB, no?

 

[secondtry]

Hey

I don't know if this is way off base here, but could too much foodstock in an EM brew lead to a putrefaction rather than a fermentation?

I don't know about putrefaction but too much foodstock is not good, and a waste.

I don't personally have any of his books, but plan on getting the PDF soon. I did read something online in which he (Vinny) referenced "his laboratory."

I could email you his books, they are quite old now, once I find mine, I fear I may have lost them in a HDD crash. I think he has a lab but I don't think he offered any data, tho I could be mistaken. FWIW, you may want to download his whole website because if the notes from him are still correct he will be tkaing all his EM stuff offline sometime in the future.

I would suggest that you may want to use google scholar to search for white papers on EM, there are tons of them. It's huge in India and Pakistan, those researchers are way ahead of the curve, and more papers are in English than those from Japan.

If you find papers you want give me a list, or I'm sure MrFista can help too, either of us can download most any full text paper for free

GL

 

[Microbeman]

Some points;
I often reduce the ratio of water (14 parts; to 18 parts) for more potent EM. I only use 20 parts for agriculture. I think it would be interesting to try 1:1 EM and pure grape juice (Welchs pure squeezed, no water).

There is a lot of bogus information about yeast not being fungi. It is but when we see it in cell form (budding yeast), as in my videos, it has not grown into hyphae. There are those (specialists) around these days who view yeast as a negative in soil in compost and soil. To an excess sure but I commonly see it in healthy soil and in good compost/vermicompost (cast--haha). SCD used to list both ray-fungi and actinomycetes (actinobacteria) on their label until I pointed out that they are the same thing (and they are bacteria not fungi)....ooops. Vinny has some lab equipment but I'm quite certain he does not do microscope work nor plate counts.