Dud Identification Collective Knowledge.

[papaduc]

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[Storm Shadow]

Just thinking out loud....

I believe its AYP and being spread by Cloning... only a couple of articles out of many state that it cant be transmitted through Propagation... the rest of the Information out there says it does...

I can see people out here in Cali getting infected through leaf hoppers outdoors...then those same dudes selling clones to all the clubes/vendors... P.O used to take in any cut they thought could make them money...trays and trays of random genetics...

Look on craigslist and type in clones....tons of people selling plants that being grown outdoors... all the favorite flavors... its not very hard to get the ball rolling

 

[RetroGrow]

It mightn't sit well with people to be told they're making basic mistakes

If only you would listen to your own "advice".
You are making the "basic mistake" of being hyper-critical of other's growing methods. You have never experienced the problem, therefore it must not exist, is your mantra. It's all bad growers and grower error.
Except that you are mistaken. This has happened to many expert growers who are not all incompetent as you imply. There is no question in my mind that it is NOT what you say, but instead is a pathogen(s) of some sort doing the damage that you have never experienced. All these people are not delusional, nor are they all "shitty" growers. There is definitely something going on here, and we will find out what it is.

 

[Loc Dog]

If only you would listen to your own "advice".
You are making the "basic mistake" of being hyper-critical of other's growing methods. You have never experienced the problem, therefore it must not exist, is your mantra. It's all bad growers and grower error.
Except that you are mistaken. This has happened to many expert growers who are not all incompetent as you imply. There is no question in my mind that it is NOT what you say, but instead is a pathogen(s) of some sort doing the damage that you have never experienced. All these people are not delusional, nor are they all "shitty" growers. There is definitely something going on here, and we will find out what it is.

Bravo!!!!

I have grown AF's indoor in hydro, and had problems at first, but tuned in and everything grew awesome. Af's are much more bitchy than photo's, since any problem can not be solved within the limited lifespan.

The Attitude seeds I started at same time are huge. 3 questionable plants are only 1 foot or less. Grew distorted, then growing OK. Will test soon!!!

My post 835 here, has a ton of info, I collected last night!!!

Best wishes, to RG!!

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

so what about all the inbreeding and sex reversal going on in breeding .if an evil professor took humans and reversed their sex and had a girl screw herself and have children they would have all kinds of health issues.dad impregnants daughter she has a kid he impregnates the granddaughter.brother bangs mom.after a while these kids are gonna look like Alfred E. Newman or some kid on the front porch in Deliverance. and have all kinds of health issues .I would think resistance to viruses and bacteria would be fucked up.the Royal family in England actually had to start out crossing as they started to get fuck ed up from trying to stay Blue Bloods by inbreeding.

If you think that sex reversal is changing the genome you should read a few books on the subject. All it does is alter the sex expression not the genes. You can have more negative recessives if you self single plants but who does this? They reverse a female and use the pollen on a different variety female, to make all female seeds.
-SamS

 

[papaduc]

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[gaiusmarius]

i also think putting this down to grower error is not realistic. there are too many talented growers dealing with this issue. these are not people who just started growing, so yeah if those kind of folks tell me it's not grower error because other plants are doing great with the same regimen, even in the same grow sometimes, then i tend to take them at their word. it's not magic after all to get a plant growing well and making a good yield of quality flowers. so yeah from everything i've read on this phenomena so far, it looks like this breaks the old rules some how.

 

[papaduc]

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[gaiusmarius]

you have the privilege of holding to the grow error theory. but it's precisely because it's not hard too grow a good crop of herb that i believe it can't be grower error. some of these guys have been documenting perfectly grown bud for many years. so if they now tell me it's not grower error it would be the height of arrogance to doubt them. i mean like you said it's piss easy, they are weeds. it's not rocket science. if the same plants from same mother, grown in the same garden produce both duded and healthy versions of said clone, then grower error is not a logical conclusion to be reaching. i know some of the symptom pics could be other issues by the looks of the pics, but when you read the accompanying text you will see that they are from the same garden as perfectly healthy plants grown right next to the duds, even touching them. so yeah, whats being investigated and discussed in this thread, is not related to grower error in the traditional sense imo.

 

[whadeezlrg]

like I said previously papduc- have you at all considered that these plants look like they have been overfed/underfed as a result of being dudd's? and not vis-versa.

 

[xxxstr8edgexxx]

The same could be said about your theory.
When have you ever known an over nitrogen fed plant to present on only one branch or a single clone in room full of her sisters.

Or you're making the mistake of not being critical enough, seeing as how you've contributed a lot of theories, but no advice regarding the issues of the plants pictured to open it.



I hope that anyone who reads your posts understands how you'd rather stir up hostility than focus on the actual points made. Don't add quotation marks to something I never said.

I said - and it's as easy for you to read as anyone else - that on or before page 36 is nothing that can't be easily explained and is the result of overfeeding or other basic mistakes such as not allowing a plant to reveg or not cutting back spindly growth.

I made the point of finishing my post by saying

"I'm still not saying that more experienced growers aren't having problems which are not down to these things"

I said it to clarify that I'm not ruling out that the plants in their own gardens are not having the same issues as the ones shown here, or that I'm not implying those more experienced gardeners are making the same basic mistakes.

If you find pictures before page 36 of plants which show signs of inexplicable growth changes, then show me them. And if the basis of the thread, and the pictures used to open it don't, in your opinion, show obvious signs of basic mistakes then again, explain why. Or concede that the point is valid.



Maybe it is. A pathogen which affects only one branch of a mother and never affects any other plant in the room throughout a whole cycle. That's the conclusion you've come to and you're entitled to do so.

But that's something entirely different to what has previously been described as a genetic malfunction which plants can drift in and out of.

You're overlooking almost all the evidence as it's been set out, and formulating theories which don't stand up to the simplest scrutiny. It's one thing to copy and paste information relating to any particular issue, everyone can sound like an expert nowadays with Ctrl&C. But it's another thing entirely to have the logic to know whether it's even relevant.

When have you ever known broad mites to infest only one branch of one plant?
When have you ever known tobacco mosaic virus to affect only one clone out of an entire batch taken from the same mother?
When have you ever known a pathogen or pest of any kind to affect one branch, or one clone from an entire batch?

Are any of the notions supported by the pictures attached with them?

And even if one grower does have a test come back positive for TMV, and another come back positive for some other virus/pathogen/pest... and if we put those alongside the ones who are overfeeding, using too much nitrogen in flower, not properly re-vegetating, etc etc... Then aren't we just talking about growers with a variety of different, already known issues?

And if so, is it fair to say that the term "dud" is being used as a blanket under which you could put any number of virus, pest or mistake?

Me asking those questions isn't disrespectful of anyone involved in the thread. In fact, seeing as how you were here a long time before me, you should have asked them yourself.

 

[papaduc]

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[Storm Shadow]

papduc... your from the UK right? Im just guessing because you keep saying "mate"...anyways

You do realize this problem all started in Southern California and Progressive Options (clone collective) was one the main contributors?

Have you even experienced Eriophyid or Tarsonemid mites?

 

[papaduc]

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[papaduc]

like I said previously papduc- have you at all considered that these plants look like they have been overfed/underfed as a result of being dudd's? and not vis-versa.

Well, again, it's all about the variables brother. If you can't eliminate them, there's no leg for either me or you to stand on. All we can conclude is that we can't conclude anything. If the grower wants to eliminate that variable he/she has to scale back the feed to whatever the weak dud plant can handle, and make the case on that basis. Plants don't go from healthy to burned in one feed, you and I both know that.

Even with the delicate and fussy re-vegetating clone, which will burn if you even approach it with a bottle of nutes in your hand, you can avoid burning it if you know how to feed her. Have a look at the link to re-vegging from bud in my last post and see what I mean.

That's a clone which is in stasis, it literally won't move for maybe more than 2 weeks and can't tolerate food at anywhere near the levels even a new born seedling can. These things give you little insights into plant biology and when you've practiced these methods and burned yourself a few time (no pun intended) you get a better appreciation for how easy it is for people to go wrong, especially when they've had no experience with it themselves.

The lad at the beginning of this thread has not re-vegged his plant properly before flowering it. I can tell you that without any doubt whatsoever, I will put my house on it. It's not even in question that that is what he's done. But he's stuck wondering why it has turned out that way. Without doubt if he practices some more methods of re-vegging he will understand when he looks back what the mistake was that he made.

Anyway, boys and girls, whatever the differences in opinion, I'm glad the discussion remains civil. I strongly argue my case, and I wouldn't expect anything less than for you to argue strongly yours.

This will run and run until tests come in and individual cases can be solved. Be cool

 

[gaiusmarius]

Gaius,

Mate, I know there are some complete dickheads on these boards and others who just flat out refuse to acknowledge what people are trying to tell them. I'm not one of those people and I'm sure you're not either. Which is why I can't understand how you can't see that I am not categorising the people who you are referring to, with those who posted pictures in the beginning of this thread.

If you can't take my point in it's proper context then I'm just going round in circles. I'm not labeling anyone a shit grower or disrespecting any of the people who you are referring to when you talk about respected growers because I have not even once commented on what their issues are.

You're right, it's not hard to grow herb. But every single day you will see people who fail to do so because they don't understand the most basic aspects of growing. It's not because they're ignorant or stupid, but because like all of us at some point, they have never grown a plant and have not even the most basic gardening knowledge.



What you're basically saying is that because there are healthy plants in the pictures, it's impossible for the grower to have mistreated another one. That's completely flawed logic based on the numerous amount of people with sickly individual plants.

Before a clone properly re-vegetates 0.6ec of grow feed will turn it waxy. If it's sister re-vegetates before her and starts growing properly, she can take 1.0ec after a week or so and be fine.

These are key variables you are disregarding in order to come to that conclusion and are indicative of the kind of flaws in logic that are prevalent in the whole debate.

The accompanying text means absolutely nothing if the grower doesn't know what he/she has done wrong. I've lost count of the times a magnesium deficiency is misdiagnosed with pictures to prove it.

I hope you can better understand my point because this is not, and never is, a personal crusade against any individual. I enjoy growing plants and if what I say turns out to be factually correct then what that will mean is that throughout this entire, sometimes frustrating discussion, all I have tried to do is explain, for the benefit of the people reading, that what is at the beginning of this thread is certainly not some inexplicable phenomena.

You are free to disregard everything I say, as is everyone else. I am bound by what is logical, by what makes sense.

If you submitted these theories and this thread to any botanist I would imagine they would have no word to say against anything I have set out here because all I am saying is there is no scientific basis for these claims and no pictographic evidence which can't be explained quite easily. If that's the boring view to take, so be it.

I posted this in the GG4 thread the other day and this pretty much sums it up from me.

Based on what I said to dank frank, it's obvious I'm open minded to the possibility that there is something wrong with the specific cuts you are dealing with.

But I do reserve the right to be skeptical and have my own opinion. You're American right? Don't you agree with free speech and freedom to think and speculate?

The only two cases I've pointed out which I think are nitrogen toxicity are kushconnoisseur and stormshadow.

You're talking about experienced growers, well I'm an experienced grower myself and I'm asking you how you can look at those two cases and not see what is an obvious problem with either N toxicity, or overfeeding in general.

Look further into both those cases before you make snap judgements regarding what I'm saying about them. And if you want my opinion on this dud thing, look at my posts before that.

I am skeptical. I admit that. I am not dismissing anything out of hand. I'm not ignorant and I wouldn't do that. But because I'm not ignorant and because I like to remain open minded with regards the possibility of things, I am not going to believe that what is occurring is a rare genetic phenomenon which I, or anyone I know, have never seen once. Ever.

If this was a thread about ghosts, would I be equally unwelcome to stress the point that it might have been something more logical which could explain it?

I believe so many malpractices are a common part of indoor cannabis cultivation, and I believe this because a lot of people who do this have no previous gardening experience.

You only have to look at the market. I mean step back for a minute and just analyse the fucking nutrient market and then think to yourself, why?

Would these products be pushed onto the gardeners doing the flower shows?

Can you see monty don promoting the next bottle of magic potion bullshit with a garbage pail kid sticker on the front on the next episode of gardener's world?

No. Because they're not aimed at kids with no general horticultural knowledge whatsoever who are sold on gimmicks.

And why am I making this point?
Because you can apply this point to every single aspect of indoor marijuana horticulture.

On this site somewhere is a guide to keeping bonsai mother plants. It's written by one of the most knowledgeable growers I've spoken to online. His name is Oldtimer1.

In relation to potting up practices, using perlite etc, he was talking about the culture of cannabis growing in the states and how it started out.

Back in the day when people started growing their own herb, they had no knowledge of basic gardening, and it reflected in how they started their seeds.
What people would do is take a massive pot of dirt and stick the seed in the middle.
The seed would dry out too quickly because of the surrounding dirt, so they soaked the whole pot. But then the soil turned anaerobic and stale and the seed would usually rot. To combat this they added perlite, then more perlite... and more. Until the seedling could be watered without rotting. What they ended up with was a massive pot of mostly perlite with a tiny seed in the middle.

They had no concept of the idea of potting up, a basic gardening practice which had already been in practice in the UK and elsewhere for a long time.

Slowly, but surely, people began to cotton onto to the fact that this was obviously the way to go.

Now you won't see many people starting seeds that way without someone popping in and telling them `hey, that's too big a pot`...

It took a long time. That was more than a generation ago.

Now, calmag has replaced perlite. And fulvic, humic, enzyme, vitamin b, carbs, amino acid, bacteria, silicon... have replaced basic plant food.

Go to the sick plant forum. See how many pages you can look through before a miscalcuation of calcium deficiency is diagnosed. And I'm not talking newbs either. I've seen enough so called vets on here making bad and wrong diagnosis of magnesium and calcium deficiency, in fact it's become part of your general culture over there to apply these two things to your daily schedule. In the uk you might not be able to find a grower who's ever seen a bottle.

Is the water so much different?
Or is it a matter of basic practice and where, or rather who, we get our information from?

Ask yourself, and be honest. Be as open minded and critical as you're asking me to be.

In fact go to the flower shots forum.
If you say you know what N toxicity/overfert looks like, you will find a shot on nearly every page, and I'm not exaggerating. Maybe more than one per page.

I've got one cut now out of 15 which sprouted massive long internodes and stretched up like strings of spaghetti. Why did the others not do this but that one did?

I'll tell you why.

When a clone takes root, it's above ground growth is almost like a frame, stuck in stasis. At a certain point, it resumes growth, safe that it has a certain amount of roots to sustain itself.

If, at the point when it resumes growth, the cut is fresh and green, the clone can resume growth like it would if it was still connected to the mother plant.

But if the growth which is already there has lignified, what essentially happens is the new shoot is almost a separate growth emerging from a piece of woody bark. In that case you will see shoots spring from it just like they would a revegging clone.

If you take a fully formed bud and you root it, like I have here https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=263772 what emerges is a spindly little shoot which has no connection to where it came from other than that it is attached. The bud itself is no longer alive and will die off. Unless you've seen it or have experience of doing this you will have no idea what I am talking about.

With those cuts you are talking about which stretch further than the others, if you cut them right back to a nice healthy shoot, and hit them with proper light, I will almost guarantee the resultant growth will be much stronger than what was there before.

Is this because it went through and came back out of a genetic trance? Or is it something explainable by basic plant physiology?
It's a physiological response you can disregard to call it a dud if you want. But it's one which I am well familiar with and am absolutely certain has nothing whatsoever to do with it.

We can all believe what we want at the end of the day, and I am definitely not going to be swayed by public opinion which I see first hand on a daily basis every time I log onto these boards is wrong a lot of the time.

You can bang on all you want about why I should listen but first you need to address the very prevalent errors which are a significant part of the community. When people understand about general gardening and understand techniques and principles to navigate basic situations, then, and only then, can you expect people with that knowledge to put faith in their judgement.

But while there are so many completely fucked up if not at least a little dodgy practices going on, it's hard for me to discount the possibility that something else might be wrong. I would be stupid and blind ignorant to do so based on the evidence on these boards.

the funny thing is that you think your telling me things i don't know about growing.

anyway, i'm not into repeating myself and going on and on back and forth, i've said my peace and nothing you've said has changed my mind.

the issue this thread is about, is not grower error related. sure some might mistakenly post pics here, or misdiagnose dud-ism, but that isn't to say that the main topic of the thread is about a grower error related problem.

what exactly the issue is, remains to be seen, i'm hopping the testing that's been initiated and will be done in future, will clear things up. thats what this thread is actually for, it's to share results or direct experience with this particular issue, what ever it turns out to be. this thread is a collective effort to find out exactly what it is and what can be done to stop it etc.

this thread is not about problems that are grower related, this is about those situations where it happens under perfect conditions, only to some plants, or even to individual branches of a plant.

 

[Crooked8]

I feel like my setup was a perfect example to prove no grower error had occurred yet i had a dudd. Picture a 4x8 flood and drain setup. 6 rockwool slabs with 3-4 plants on each one under two 1000w hps all fed from the same 70 gallon res. I tested my first glue cut in a tray exactly as described. It was one plant in with many others, og, amnesia haze, buddha cheese and others. Every single plant thrived and grew perfectly the way they usually do with my setup, except one. I even had it placed centrally so it wouldnt get shaded out. But it was a dudd. I was the first person to document a gg dudd on here and i was called out. Then more and more experienced growers started having the same issue with the same strain and they all looked like mine. Completely diff grow styles and all, same problem from the same cut from the same source. How is it possible that a tray with all types of strains did extremely well minus the one plant and it was grower error? I trained them all the same, i fed them all the same, the environment was the same.

 

[xxxstr8edgexxx]

in the case of revegging plants can easily happen if, at the point you start feeding, one clone has not started proper vegetative growth.

but thats not what we are talking about

 

[papaduc]

the funny thing is that you think your telling me things i don't know about growing

I don't know what you don't know about growing.

What I find funny is you think I should trust the people you trust, or that it's more arrogant to question whether they've misdiagnosed a problem than it is to assume they're above making a mistake.

sure some might mistakenly post pics here, or misdiagnose dud-ism, but that isn't to say that the main topic of the thread is about a grower error related problem.

But it is to say there are no pictures of it. Which was my point initially.

You make your judgements how you see fit.
This thread is 56 pages long and there are experienced growers who have encountered what some believe is a genetic event never before seen in marijuana horticulture, and nobody has taken a picture. It's a shame.

Hopefully soon someone can get together some photos to help people understand more clearly what's going on.

Til then. Take care

 

[papaduc]

same problem from the same cut from the same source. How is it possible that a tray with all types of strains did extremely well minus the one plant and it was grower error?

It probably wasn't grower error. You probably got a sick or weak cutting.