Does LEDs really yield the same as their "HPS equivalent"

[Sunshineinabag]

I went from 6500 t 5s to hps eye horti in cooltubes using magnetic ballasts instead of digis. Now I'm bumping SF 2000s I love the coverage I get w two or three sf2000s .....then again screw ins can hold their own as well lol it's sickening what I get away with....rofl

 

[Klompen]

huh someone beat me to it
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haitz's_law
Haitz's law is an observation and forecast about the steady improvement, over many years, of light-emitting diodes (LEDs).
.........
My law says stay 2 years behind in Technology and you can get much more for much less

I am out of rep right now, but that was an excellent post, thanks.

It is indeed quite the premium to always buy the newest stuff. Even waiting 6 months often sees radical price shifts sometimes.

 

[indagroove]

I am out of rep right now, but that was an excellent post, thanks.

It is indeed quite the premium to always buy the newest stuff. Even waiting 6 months often sees radical price shifts sometimes.

Yep, early adopters will always pay more, be it for a Tesla or for the newest lighting board on the market. But it's important to remember that without early adopters, the prices wouldn't come down for the rest of us quite so quickly. I personally like to position myself somewhere between the early adopter, and the guy who's late to the party.

 

[Klompen]

I've never had enough money to be an early adopter. I tried to be an early adopter of computer gaming equipment back in the day and I had years of credit card debt to prove it!

 

[TakenByTheSky]

I've never had enough money to be an early adopter. I tried to be an early adopter of computer gaming equipment back in the day and I had years of credit card debt to prove it!

The buy in cost to get started with LED is still tremendous and such a handle because the highest price doesn't guarantee quality, you really have to learn a little bit to become an informed buyer.

 

[indagroove]

The buy in cost to get started with LED is still tremendous and such a handle because the highest price doesn't guarantee quality, you really have to learn a little bit to become an informed buyer.

The best bet IMO is to DIY a kit together yourself, using components from quality companies who will stand behind their products with warranties. If you take that route, you can have top components at knock off prices. It's easy to hook up boards to drivers.

 

[Klompen]

That's why I went with driverless Chinese COB lights. Not the prettiest, not the most efficient, but they were absurdly cheap(less than 2 dollars per 50W chip) and worked a lot better than I expected. Certainly not high end though. I'm viewing it as a good learning step. I still wonder though if the new ones might be worth getting since they can dim and have constant current. Hopefully in 6 months or so I will have all my work spaces set up and can do some proper soldering and whatnot.

 

[indagroove]

That's why I went with driverless Chinese COB lights. Not the prettiest, not the most efficient, but they were absurdly cheap(less than 2 dollars per 50W chip) and worked a lot better than I expected. Certainly not high end though. I'm viewing it as a good learning step. I still wonder though if the new ones might be worth getting since they can dim and have constant current. Hopefully in 6 months or so I will have all my work spaces set up and can do some proper soldering and whatnot.

Personally I don't like the spread on COBs. I could see them working if you have a lot of them dimmed down a bit. I use QB96's which are somewhat of a COB replacement. They are pretty cheap ($70 a piece, including a quality heatsink), and can be cranked up to close to 200watts or run much lower, but they do require a driver. They have samsung lm301b white diodes, with added red (osram 630nm and 660nm diodes). I'm very happy with both the cost and the quality.

 

[Joint Lock]

Lumens are fine for comparing the same kind of light sources, like a white led to a white led.

This is incorrect due to BINS and Efficacy of chips and things like photons . (A 100w EBAY china chip isnt going to have efficacy of a top bin 100w cree chip) will be 5-15% difference in efficacy . So to think 2x 100w chips of the spectrum are the same is kinda like saying your v6 camaro is the same as the ZL1 or SS .

Another thing how do u think LED is better then HID ?

Its called PAR/PUR and efficacy . Lower lumen light that has more PAR/PUR will out yeild the light with more lumens and less PAR .This is why LED is able to use less WATTS vs HID (HPS/MH) Because more light is made with less power in the ranges of colors in the spectrums that the plants use . AKA PAR/PUR ranges. You will want a 800-1000 PAR psq/ft for monster buds


Quick little example:

The color of blue in any spectrum vs red . Research has proven it takes 10 photons of red to = 1 photon of blue. Prime example go 60ft deep into the ocean what color is every thing BLUE because the photons of other colors are less then blue making blue the only color to penetrate thru water at the depth . When u see real test done online for lights they dont break out the lumen meter or LUX meters (any real test doesnt when it comes to GROW LIGHTS) You will always see PAR/PUR because its what matters to plants . This same spectrum is used to grow other things like corals .

Please dont take me as a know it all im just trying to help u guys make informed decisions with your money .

The reason a 660 HLG can smash a 600w HPS in yeild and quality once dialed in is because watt for watt the high end. LEDs have more watts of light in the PAR/PUR range then the HID does

Quick example

100w LM301B board is like 1.8 efficacy
100w LM301H is like 2.3 efficacy

Which means the LM301H ran at the same spectrum same wattages as the LM301B . The LM301H is going to produce more useable light then the LM301B at 100w

 

[SuperBadGrower]

There is no difference between lm301b and lm301h. This has been mentioned multiple times by the owner of HLG among others

Horselover Fat is correct. Lumens are fine for comparing the same kind of light sources, like a white led to a white led.
Espcially if the CCT is the same

HLG, on their website have had conversion rates for lumen -> PAR for various CCT light sources, for ages.

 

[Klompen]

Personally I don't like the spread on COBs. I could see them working if you have a lot of them dimmed down a bit. I use QB96's which are somewhat of a COB replacement. They are pretty cheap ($70 a piece, including a quality heatsink), and can be cranked up to close to 200watts or run much lower, but they do require a driver. They have samsung lm301b white diodes, with added red (osram 630nm and 660nm diodes). I'm very happy with both the cost and the quality.

The COB chips I got actually do a pretty nice job covering a wide area. If I could have dimmed them, I could have spread them out more and run them more efficiently.

I have looked at Cree COB chips, including a couple of their driverless options. The price premium seemed kind of insane though. What I can tell, they're 30-40 dollars per chip in many cases and still need a driver on top of that usually. They seem badass, like Cree stuff in general tends to be, but wow there is a premium tied to the name...

I guess I am confused a bit because when I was last into serious growing, back in the 2006-2012 era, it seemed the prevailing logic was that plants need some intense light that can penetrate canopies well. Now it seems most people are pushing more ambient style lighting and that's confusing to me...

 

[indagroove]

The COB chips I got actually do a pretty nice job covering a wide area. If I could have dimmed them, I could have spread them out more and run them more efficiently.

I have looked at Cree COB chips, including a couple of their driverless options. The price premium seemed kind of insane though. What I can tell, they're 30-40 dollars per chip in many cases and still need a driver on top of that usually. They seem badass, like Cree stuff in general tends to be, but wow there is a premium tied to the name...

I guess I am confused a bit because when I was last into serious growing, back in the 2006-2012 era, it seemed the prevailing logic was that plants need some intense light that can penetrate canopies well. Now it seems most people are pushing more ambient style lighting and that's confusing to me...

https://horticulturelightinggroup.com/products/qb96-elite-v2-quantum-board-engine

 

[roybart]

I guess I am confused a bit because when I was last into serious growing, back in the 2006-2012 era, it seemed the prevailing logic was that plants need some intense light that can penetrate canopies well. Now it seems most people are pushing more ambient style lighting and that's confusing to me...

Way back when 30 plus years I ran 4 T5 High output tubes. I had three sets on 3 shelves. its was simple setup:
Soda cans with the top cut off and a few small holes in the bottom.
I used third perlite, third vermiculite, third potting soil (whoever had the cheapest when needed).
All cans sat in tray and after watering every day in the morning, the tray (2 foot x 4 foot) would collect about 1/4 of an inch of water. Once I saw a root coming out of the bottom, I doubled up on the water, started with nutes once a week. I don't remember what the nutes were but I had to mix it and I used 1/4 of the recommended dose.
That's all I did, then the only task was matching5 the plant heights so they would get and even shot at the lumens.
About 14 week , I would have cola's about 4- 6 inches long and about 1 inch in diameter.
At any given time the tops of the plants were never more than 3 inches away from the lights..
That was with 20K accumulated lumens.

I had two great mums running 4 T5 HO's and they provided many a clone.



Today I have the same setup with 40K lumens of white LED 6000K and the girls are doing fine.. The 40K lumens is consistent anywhere I measure on the tray. if I remember the T5 fade on each end and around the edge of the 4 T5 light fixture.
I never had a cell phone to measure in those days.

My setup today cost me in US $

23.00 for 100 1.5 watt modules with (3) .5 watt LED (which only use 110 watts, someone is lying and it isn't me)

9.00 for an aluminum tray (13" x 18") as a heat sink
20.0 pro rated for 360 watt driver (it has three 180 watt outputs)

4.00 misc hardware and wire


My total watts for 7 buckets is 7.1 Kw /day this includes:
1 air movement 6 inch fan,
6 inch inline exhaust fan
all LED's, air bubblers (3)
Humidifier



So its on par (pun intended) for me. If the chips have more lumens and less watts down the road, its only the cost of the modules for me to upgrade.


I know you can pick a bunch of holes in my methodology, but it worked great then and so far its working even better now.
I run DWC with bubblers in each bucket and halo rings pushed up by air to drip feed from the top. All clones



I get PAR and why etc etc I have read and watched Me Bugbee. As I am really only growing maybe 12 to 24 inches high, I don't think penetration is a big deal.

 

[gladysvjubb]

I ran a boatload of POWERGROOVE 225W fluoros.
At that time I was growing bagseed from Colombia which was excellent.

 

[Brother Nature]

There is no difference between lm301b and lm301h. This has been mentioned multiple times by the owner of HLG among others

Pretty interesting they use the H's in their new lights then. There is a difference, it may be minuscule, but there is a slight difference.

 

[SuperBadGrower]

Pretty interesting they use the H's in their new lights then. There is a difference, it may be minuscule, but there is a slight difference.

Ok, and what is your source for this claim? Steven has honestly been going out of his way to explain that both diodes are the same. Just watch the GML show, Steven is there almost every week, and almost every week someone asks about the difference between said diodes. He has said that this information comes straight from samsung, multiple times.

I'd like to share a link but they have 2hr long episodes and it's a bit difficult to find a quote in there. The question could be asked again Friday Only difference is in the marketing / labeling according to both Steven and Greengenes.

if you take what steven has been sharing on the GML show, HLG is either deep in cahoots with samsung or they he is lying so much that the biggest lawsuit in history is coming their way. I'm sure it is the former. the company is the leading manufacturer of certified LED grow lights that you can get rebates on, and they're even trying to bring manufacturing to USA. He has stated that their SMDs are made exclusively for them in Vietnam.

Not that I care -- I don't own any HLG products. (And not a single Samsung diode)
but when Ching Chong from Alibubber gets the H for the same price as the B, you as customer should too. Shit peddlers like Meiju will simply list their trash-bin 301bs as "top bin lm301h! $500" and there is no way for laypeople to tell they have been scammed. Either way, if anyone is truly interested in the truth I would recommend contacting Samsung about it. There is also better information on other forums. Needless to say HLG have a chip (haha) in the game. I have been making LED lights since before quantum boards existed, my only interest is that ppl don't get ripped off

 

[Mr. J]

They're the same diode. Throw an "H" in there instead of a "B" and all the grow dorks will give you more of their money. It's like everything else in this industry, you take any light and add the word "grow" to it and all of a sudden it costs twice as much. Most of you guys pay for water and buy all of the 23 extra products that that the nutrient company recommends so it doesn't surprise me that you would gladly pay more for the same lights as well. Marketing is a thing and it works.

 

[p0opstlnksal0t]

Pretty interesting they use the H's in their new lights then. There is a difference, it may be minuscule, but there is a slight difference.

Youre wrong. same chip different marketing jargon

 

[p0opstlnksal0t]

but when Ching Chong from Alibubber gets the H for the same price as the B, you as customer should too. Shit peddlers like Meiju will simply list their trash-bin 301bs as "top bin lm301h! $500" and there is no way for laypeople to tell they have been scammed. Either way, if anyone is truly interested in the truth I would recommend contacting Samsung about it. There is also better information on other forums. Needless to say HLG have a chip (haha) in the game. I have been making LED lights since before quantum boards existed, my only interest is that ppl don't get ripped off

Is there any way we can get Meijiu to supply us with some lot numbers from samsung so we can verify bins? i doubt they are getting top bin diodes but "trash bin"? lol they still build a decent light for the cost. even if they are using crappier bin diodes, they are still using aluminum extrusion for heatsinks, meanwell drivers and high count (256 diodes per strip) bars. they've quoted me 650 shipped for a handful of LED bar lights using 2x 480w meanwell drivers and 8 custom made bars of 100% 90 cri lm301b diodes.

with HLG we only see 4% less consumption on the v2 (lmb01b) than the V1 (lm561c) and an Efficiency bump of 6% from V1 to V2. the V2 sitting at 2.63 ?moles/joule at 2100mA vs. the V1 at 2.48 ?mols/joule. The V2 emits about 13 more lumens per watt at this current.

That being said, are we to believe that the lower bin diodes these chinese makers are using is a greater difference in the same lm301b family than say HLG using top bin lm561c vs lm301b?

 

[indagroove]

There is one difference between lm301b diodes and lm301h diodes, in that all "h" diodes are guaranteed to be top bin, but not necessarily so with lm301b diodes. The "h" specifies horticulture, which is why the documentation lists ppfd instead of lumens.