Do you have Cannabinoid Hyperemesis Syndrome?

[Douglas.Curtis]

As has been mentioned Neem has its own long history of internal and external human use, so at most this is a hypothesis or a cofactor.

In the last several years, speaking with individuals/growers/online, I have come across a total of two instances. Two instances where the CHS was not traceable to some azadirachtin source or another.

Azadirachtin is hardly a hypothesis or cofactor. Have you read my personal research? It wasn't some indica-whacked teenage project, I was very specific and careful. All of my issues came from exposure to azadirachtin and, in retrospect, an issue with H.Pylori. I haven't re-tested the azadirachtin yet, without the H.Pylori. That's coming in a double blind study, conducted on treated and non-treated plants.

 

[Buddyy]

Hi
does anybody know if azadirachtin could be in the buds of plants grow in a soil mix that contains neem meal?

 

[Douglas.Curtis]

Hi
does anybody know if azadirachtin could be in the buds of plants grow in a soil mix that contains neem meal?

Yes, I have several reports of over amending with neem meal causing CHS. Apparently, not enough of the aza is extracted during processing. Cannabis is very good at absorbing things.

 

[Buddyy]

thank you DC. somewhat concerning.. This then raises many more questions for grower using neem. How much is over amending? Is there any safe way to use neem on plants?... since it has been used for many thousands of years and has been called a 'wonder plant' or the 'village pharmacy' Maybe it's when it's smoked that aza becomes a problem...

 

[Douglas.Curtis]

thank you DC. somewhat concerning.. This then raises many more questions for grower using neem. How much is over amending? Is there any safe way to use neem on plants?... since it has been used for many thousands of years and has been called a 'wonder plant' or the 'village pharmacy' Maybe it's when it's smoked that aza becomes a problem...

I have zero idea on how much is enough or too much. IMO, using aza on anything other than keeper genetics, not throwing clones for at least a month, is about the only cannabis application. My research points toward cannabis being a hyper/dynamic accumulator as the main problem. As I keep repeating, cannabis is not a fruit or a vegetable and treating it as such only causes quality problems through incorrect feeding and issues with pesticide/chemical retention.

Neem/Aza has been safely used for thousands of years, in applications where it is exposed to light and water. These conditions degrade it quickly.

Cannabis traps it, keeping it fresh and ready for creating problems in animals(apparently). Gimpy mentioned someone using UV light, on broken up cannabis, to remove the aza/neem. I can see how breaking up the flowers would allow the UV to penetrate and destroy the aza molecules, over time.

At some point, I'll be exposing a thin film of concentrate to a black light for a few hours. Should it be possible to destroy the aza this way, I'll take a slight degradation of the cannabinoids for clean medicine. I'm still a few months away from harvesting anything of my own.

 

[BudToaster]

why not just use nematodes for the soil critters - that's what my supplier does - pretty much knocks them out.

 

[GrowingHigher]

In the last several years, speaking with individuals/growers/online, I have come across a total of two instances. Two instances where the CHS was not traceable to some azadirachtin source or another.

Azadirachtin is hardly a hypothesis or cofactor. Have you read my personal research? It wasn't some indica-whacked teenage project, I was very specific and careful. All of my issues came from exposure to azadirachtin and, in retrospect, an issue with H.Pylori. I haven't re-tested the azadirachtin yet, without the H.Pylori. That's coming in a double blind study, conducted on treated and non-treated plants.

Did you publish this research somewhere? What I have seen on IC is collection of self-reported case studies (within a context where there is a preconceived notion neem is the problem). This is not convincing proof.

It could also be that two issues are being conflated, where some people are having allergic reactions to neem products, and others are having what has been described as CHS. (Alternatively maybe those CHS cases without azadiratchin were non-cannabis related cyclic vomiting syndrome, and azadaratchin is the cause of CHS.)

How do you plan on doing a double-blind test on yourself?

 

[Weird]

on the rare occasion I have gotten sick on weed it was weed that had heavy insect pressure and no pesticides and it was always long running tropical weeds not indicas

aphid and mite

 

[Douglas.Curtis]

Did you publish this research somewhere? What I have seen on IC is collection of self-reported case studies (within a context where there is a preconceived notion neem is the problem). This is not convincing proof.

It could also be that two issues are being conflated, where some people are having allergic reactions to neem products, and others are having what has been described as CHS. (Alternatively maybe those CHS cases without azadiratchin were non-cannabis related cyclic vomiting syndrome, and azadaratchin is the cause of CHS.)

How do you plan on doing a double-blind test on yourself?

No, I haven't posted this as "research anywhere," not yet anyway. I have done side by side testing, again non-documented. I believe it's completely possible a small number of people have a true allergic reaction to some terp or cannabinoid profile, or something. I'd have this all proved out, had I been financially capable. This has been affecting my life for a decade+.

Since treating the H.Pylori, there has been a significant reduction in symptoms. I'm still aware of issues (rock hard muscles around the kidneys, low level nausea, pain and discomfort relieved by hot bath/shower, headache), but none of the extreme intestinal pain or lasting digestive issues. I have no idea the neem content. I currently have almost no information on the source of my cannabis and dabs. I can definitely tell it's contaminated with something. lol Anyway, the issues vary with each batch of dabs and cannabis. I've definitely run into batches which seriously kicked up the nausea level, muscle tension and other issues. Tainted enough I wouldn't dab much, to compensate for the nasty experience. Meanwhile, I work on growing some clean stuff. First chance in over a year.

I'm working on setting up a double blind study next spring. I simply don't have the resources to do a side by side inside right now. Hell, I've had significantly little resources for 10+ years, due to these issues. I'll be treating at least 2 strains and marking the plants. One plant of each strain will be sprayed at week 2 of flower with 5ml/gallon of azamax or azatrol.

The plants will be tagged and everything processed under the same conditions. The resulting cannabis will be labeled and handed to someone else who will prepare and administer it, along with other samples of non-treated cannabis of the same batch.

I'll use dabs and joints of all samples, one sample a week, for an evening of dabbing and medicating. This will give me a week of clean cannabis, charcoal pills and kombucha to help clean out, when I use the aza tainted stuff.

Should be loads of fun. (not!) I'm very interested in having this over and done with.

 

[VamSogel]

I want to make this post to tell my story with Cannabinoid Hyperemesis Syndrome.

I have smoked weed for almost 2 years now (started smoking regularly around January 2016). My friends and I started smoking daily through a bong and joints/blunts. This continued through summer of 2016. During summer 2016, my friends and I smoked heavily (I would guess I was smoking around an 8th of weed per week). We also were taking chops (weed and tobacco) consistently. I never experienced any negative side effects from smoking until about august of 2016. I was just moving into the dorms for my first year of college when I woke up one morning feeling nauseas. I started to throw up and developed a very sharp, constant pain in my lower abdomen that would not go away. I was vomiting uncontrollably and the pain in my abdomen was unbearable. I could not stop throwing up and eventually was in so much pain that my parents had to take me to the ER. I could not keep any liquids or food down so I was very dehydrated and in pain. The doctors ran many tests (blood, urine, CT scans) but everything showed that I was healthy. I am a very healthy person and have never had any prior medical conditions/history. I am about 5’11 165 lbs. They suggested that I had Cannabinoid Hyperemesis Syndrome, something I had never heard about. I read up about CHS and concluded that it was ridiculous I could have such a thing considering that weed had always been super beneficial and something that I could count on to relax myself. It was also a very social thing amongst my friend group. Thus, my stubborn self continued to consume marijuana pretty much daily, usually smoking a joint or two at night. At this time I was in the dorms for college and did not have access to a bong, so I would only smoke bong if I was at a friends house. My parents obviously were very concerned and seemed to think that I did actually have CHS, but the doctors could not officially “diagnose” me with it. It was not until about 2 months later when one night, I had the same nausea from the start of school. I began to throw up again and the excruciating pain returned. Having experienced this before, I attempted to “tough it out”. I stayed up all night in my dorm bathroom, constantly taking hot baths to try and subside the pain. Eventually the morning came and I could not bear it anymore, I was also so dehydrated that I thought I would pass out. I returned to the ER and the same thing happened again. The doctors gave me some anti-nausea medicine, fluids, and eventually painkillers to stop the stomach pain. My parents were understandably pissed, knowing that I had still been smoking. again the doctors said they thought it was CHS and said I needed to stop smoking. (P.S. after both visits to the ER I generally felt fine the next couple days and did not have recurring symptoms besides my stomach being weak from throwing up so much) Once again, I did not want to give up smoking so I continued again. I smoked daily for about 11months with no visit to the hospital and no signs of CHS. Thinking I was in the clear, I had another incident very recently, this time being worse. I had to visit the ER 3 days in a row, each morning repeating the same cycle of vomiting, pain, etc. As of now, I have stopped smoking because I have finally realized that CHS is real and unfortunately I have developed it. Along with the excruciating pain, going to the ER every so often is not something I want to be doing.

It has been about 5 days since my last ER visit and I have not smoked weed since then, nor do I plan on starting. But, it kills me to think that weed will forever be something I must abstain from. Speaking to any of you who have CHS, is there any chance I will be able to consume marijuana every so often, maybe a joint or bong hit every week or two? I have accepted the possibility that I will never be able to smoke weed again, but I also was curious to try using only CBD? I have heard of the benefits of CBD and I think it would be something very helpful to me. Am I able to consume strictly CBD without instigating another hyperemesis breakout? I am worried to try anything because I really do not want to experience it again. If you have any insight - please respond with your experience with CHS. Thanks

 

[Douglas.Curtis]

Please read the thread.

What conversations have you had with your grower about their pest management methods? Unless you're 100% positive their plants have never touched neem/azadirachtin products, there's a really good chance you can safely use clean cannabis.

 

[GrowingHigher]

I currently have almost no information on the source of my cannabis and dabs. I can definitely tell it's contaminated with something. lol Anyway, the issues vary with each batch of dabs and cannabis.

Agreed. Legal markets are beginning to address this. Though neem is generally regarded as safe. Oregon allows neem products on Cannabis. Interestingly I recently saw some U.S. bee conservation groups trying to ban neem products because of their negative effects on bees

I'm working on setting up a double blind study next spring. I simply don't have the resources to do a side by side inside right now. Hell, I've had significantly little resources for 10+ years, due to these issues. I'll be treating at least 2 strains and marking the plants. One plant of each strain will be sprayed at week 2 of flower with 5ml/gallon of azamax or azatrol.

The plants will be tagged and everything processed under the same conditions. The resulting cannabis will be labeled and handed to someone else who will prepare and administer it, along with other samples of non-treated cannabis of the same batch.

I'll use dabs and joints of all samples, one sample a week, for an evening of dabbing and medicating. This will give me a week of clean cannabis, charcoal pills and kombucha to help clean out, when I use the aza tainted stuff.

Should be loads of fun. (not!) I'm very interested in having this over and done with.

To perform a double blind the subjects and the researchers must both not know which treatment is dispensed to which subjects (active vs placebo, in your case product from plants that had been treated with neem vs products from plants that hadn't)

This firstly means the subject cannot be the researcher. And that there must be another participant beyond this that knows and dispenses which treatment is given to which subjects (more than one treatment group with multiple subjects in each). You need more people.

Not saying your side by sides aren't worthy efforts that yield additional information, but it is a detailed case report, not a double blind.

It has been about 5 days since my last ER visit and I have not smoked weed since then, nor do I plan on starting. But, it kills me to think that weed will forever be something I must abstain from. Speaking to any of you who have CHS, is there any chance I will be able to consume marijuana every so often, maybe a joint or bong hit every week or two? I have accepted the possibility that I will never be able to smoke weed again, but I also was curious to try using only CBD? I have heard of the benefits of CBD and I think it would be something very helpful to me. Am I able to consume strictly CBD without instigating another hyperemesis breakout? I am worried to try anything because I really do not want to experience it again. If you have any insight - please respond with your experience with CHS. Thanks

I quit for about a month after my last serious episode. I currently and for about the past year have not moderated my intake at all. I get morning sickness occasionally. No recent episodes.

 

[Douglas.Curtis]

This firstly means the subject cannot be the researcher. And that there must be another participant beyond this that knows and dispenses which treatment is given to which subjects (more than one treatment group with multiple subjects in each). You need more people.

It's a double blind, neither the dispenser nor myself will know which is which, the samples will be produced by a third party. Am I growing the plants? Yes. Am I treating the plants? Yes. The delivery method will be dabs and joints, I won't be able to tell which is which, even if I've grown them.

More participants? Sure, anyone having CHS issues is welcome to stop on by to participate. I'd advertise, but icmag has a strict policy against scheduling meet ups. I personally would prefer a lot more people testing this out, so THEY don't have any questions. lol

The only reason I'm considering this experiment is because of other people. For me? My previous testing was as obvious as asking me if I get wet when I stand in a shower of water. I have zero doubts about my issues and neem/aza.

 

[Anne_Fetamine]

I was going to start a thread on this very topic. I've been feeling ill after smoking small amounts of a certain ACDC hemp strain (1% THC; 5% CBD) but I don't meet all the criteria for CHS. And I have so many questions about the disorder, like:

- Can a person with CHS ever go back to smoking small amounts once in a while after a long initial break? Or will any amount of cannabis use trigger puking in the future?

- Does it ONLY happen to long-term, heavy daily smokers of marijuana? Does "long term" include smoking daily in high school & college but then taking a 12 year break before starting up again? Or must the years of use be consistent and back-to-back?

- Did it exist prior to 2004 & just wasn't noticed, or did it really come about in '04?

- Do CBD and hemp products set off the vomiting or just marijuana with psychoactive amounts of THC?

I have no doubt this is a real thing...I just don't understand how it works. I know noob smokers can vomit from getting too high ("greening out") so maybe that's what's happening with CHS--the cannabinoids build up in the system & essentially get the person "too high". Or something. Second most likely option would be something in the growing methods of today's pot--fertilizers, pesticides, fungicides or other things used in growing super-potent commercial pot.

My symptoms just include stomach aches & nausea so far along with some loose bowels, but I overheat rather than desire a hot shower. And I haven't puked yet. Perhaps there's something nasty in this particular batch of hemp? My other strain doesn't seem to cause this reaction.

 

[Dog Star]

Maybe you smoke some buds that are protected right before harvest with
something dangerous chemical... people are sickos what kind of garbage they use
on cannabis,all for profit..

you need to grow your own,organic and to deny any bud that comes from
market.. this way you play against goverment,mafia,street dealers,etc..
thats best when you can play with them and not that them play with you..

and you will have cleanest meds that actually helps you feel well..

am use a lot of cannabis and CHS is for me like next galaxy in distance
but a main reason is i dont use dangerous protectives or anything that is
not organic material or compounds so mine plants are not exposed to
toxic chemicals..

I belive CHS comes from agro protectives,overload in chems and plants absorb
everything and incorporate this in tissue,later folks smoking this buds
and get poissoned then CHS hits..

 

[Douglas.Curtis]

I was going to start a thread on this very topic. I've been feeling ill after smoking small amounts of a certain ACDC hemp strain (1% THC; 5% CBD) but I don't meet all the criteria for CHS.

What do you know about how it was grown and what it was treated with, if anything?

And I have so many questions about the disorder, like:

- Can a person with CHS ever go back to smoking small amounts once in a while after a long initial break? Or will any amount of cannabis use trigger puking in the future?

It depends on whether your reaction is to cannabis itself (My research points to less than one percent of people who experience CHS), or whether you're you're reaction is to a neem product or other pesticide.

I personally had zero issues with cannabis until I moved to an area where neem/azadirachtin was heavily used. After years of issues and tracking down the source of the issues, I have identified the neem meal/oil/azadirachtin products as the cause of my issues. When I use *my* cannabis, which does not have any neem products in it, I have zero issues with CHS. I can smoke as much as I want, dab as much as I want, eat edibles as much as I want. Zero issues.

One bowl of "Sprayed up to the day of harvest" of aza tainted cannabis and I'm down for the count. Doesn't have to be concentrated, just heavily contaminated.

- Does it ONLY happen to long-term, heavy daily smokers of marijuana? Does "long term" include smoking daily in high school & college but then taking a 12 year break before starting up again? Or must the years of use be consistent and back-to-back?

I've watched people with very little cannabis use begin to have CHS issues from dispensary cannabis. Your symptoms and the severity will depend on how tainted the cannabis is and how often you use it. Azadirachtin builds up in the body, because it apparently takes days to weeks for it to break down.

- Did it exist prior to 2004 & just wasn't noticed, or did it really come about in '04?

The first cases appeared within a year or two of azadirachtin products being allowed in agriculture.

- Do CBD and hemp products set off the vomiting or just marijuana with psychoactive amounts of THC?

As before, it depends on whether you have issues with cannabis itself or aza. The reports of people who have problems with cannabis itself have been very short on details. If anyone has more details on that, I'd really appreciate them sharing it.

I have no doubt this is a real thing...I just don't understand how it works. I know noob smokers can vomit from getting too high ("greening out") so maybe that's what's happening with CHS--the cannabinoids build up in the system & essentially get the person "too high". Or something. Second most likely option would be something in the growing methods of today's pot--fertilizers, pesticides, fungicides or other things used in growing super-potent commercial pot.

CHS is cyclical vomiting and you're unable to control it. We're not talking about a white out. lol There are a lot of nutrients and pesticides which can cause stomach issues.

My symptoms just include stomach aches & nausea so far along with some loose bowels, but I overheat rather than desire a hot shower. And I haven't puked yet. Perhaps there's something nasty in this particular batch of hemp? My other strain doesn't seem to cause this reaction.

Who grew them? There are other pesticides which can easily cause stomach aches, nausea and loose bowels. Again, what do you know about how each strain was grown?

Have a great new year, everyone.

 

[WishDoctor]

ok this is not new there are med references that go back ovwr 1000yrs,
also peppermint oil in organic pesticides causes this crap and give you numb mouth BAD!

I'm seeing tons of numb mouth pot in the commercial recreational and OMMP medical system.

def not med cannabis imo.
leaves a bad taste.

my wife has this and uses black peppercorn to stabilize. Dr Russo and I talked about this, it's the absence of specific terps too. straight from Dr Russo this goes back over 1000yrs and is in Persian medical books, was recognized by the Renaissance Docs, and is in the med lits, plus in the 1650, and 1700's all recorded in medical books of the past, it was called cannabis overdose.

and no you really can't go back to puffing, it gets worse and worse, you can alleviate the symptoms but atm there is no cure. straight from Russo.
the addition of certain terps will cause this to settle down, but there is no cure atm. It's not new and didn't come out since specific pesticides were used, wow that's complete bs with no proof.
Proof is in the med lits

 

[Galaxy420]

ok this is not new there are med references that go back ovwr 1000yrs,
also peppermint oil in organic pesticides causes this crap and give you numb mouth BAD!

I'm seeing tons of numb mouth pot in the commercial recreational and OMMP medical system.

def not med cannabis imo.
leaves a bad taste.

my wife has this and uses black peppercorn to stabilize. Dr Russo and I talked about this, it's the absence of specific terps too. straight from Dr Russo this goes back over 1000yrs and is in Persian medical books, was recognized by the Renaissance Docs, and is in the med lits, plus in the 1650, and 1700's all recorded in medical books of the past, it was called cannabis overdose.

and no you really can't go back to puffing, it gets worse and worse, you can alleviate the symptoms but atm there is no cure. straight from Russo.
the addition of certain terps will cause this to settle down, but there is no cure atm. It's not new and didn't come out since specific pesticides were used, wow that's complete bs with no proof.
Proof is in the med lits

old american hippies and Jamaican Rastas - are they vomiting over top of everything? I'm not aware of vomitting hippies or rastas who are smoking th eganga all the time... could be a rare cases every now and then but not normal reactions to cannabis..

it does make sense about the need for the sesquiterpenes though as they direct the bio-chemical pathway that monoterpenes take when you ingest them... the volatility/ evaporation rate of the compound determines how/ when/ where they are assimilated...
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2449371/
Beta-caryophyllene is a dietary cannabinoid

 

[Douglas.Curtis]

my wife has this and uses black peppercorn to stabilize. Dr Russo and I talked about this, it's the absence of specific terps too. straight from Dr Russo this goes back over 1000yrs and is in Persian medical books, was recognized by the Renaissance Docs, and is in the med lits, plus in the 1650, and 1700's all recorded in medical books of the past, it was called cannabis overdose.

Citations please? Any reference to how any of the cannabis was grown?

Persian culture called the neem tree a sacred tree. It was heavily used back then for all kinds of things. Chances are, the cannabis causing overdose issues were grown near/under neem trees or neem meal/oil was used in some manner. Neem oil was regularly used by them for many, many things.

It's important to absorb information in context.


I'm not discounting CHS from 'only' cannabis exists, simply pointing out complete research is needed.
What are the sources of the cannabis your wife has issues with?

 

[weedaholic721]

Successful Treatment of Cannabinoid Hyperemesis Syndrome With Topical Capsaicin

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/p...-hyperemesis-syndrome-with-topical-capsaicin/