NoNameNoshame
Member
I thought it was 200F
Distillation (solventless FMCD)
- Thread starter DoobyYooby
- Start date
Why not use an oil bath instead of using high tech equipment for steam distillations? Dot4 brake fluid might work or even some of the high temperature frying oils.
IMO Ryoko is right though. What I think you need is really good/expensive vacuum distillation equipment for reducing the pressure to a point where the thc can be fractionally distilled multiple time without much degradation. Something at least powerful enough to distill alcohol or preferably water at room temperature could bring the bp of thc down to a more reasonable level. But I'm not an expert and definitely not a chemist.
IMO Ryoko is right though. What I think you need is really good/expensive vacuum distillation equipment for reducing the pressure to a point where the thc can be fractionally distilled multiple time without much degradation. Something at least powerful enough to distill alcohol or preferably water at room temperature could bring the bp of thc down to a more reasonable level. But I'm not an expert and definitely not a chemist.
G
Guest
From what I get about the method is that the reason why it works is because the steam along with a lower atmospheric pressure(due to the stuffing of the holding chamber, I'm assuming) allows essential oils AND cannabinoids to evaporate even though the temperature is low. A vacuum pump will allow even more extraction and at a lower temperature due to being able to have the atmospheric pressure even lower.
I also think what's happening is that the volatile terpenes are being dissolved in the water which means that the cannabinoids will increase in concentration due to not being able to dissolve into the water. This is why I think cannabis rosin is stronger than the original product it comes from due to the terpenoids evaporating leaving behind the less volatile oils which have cannabinoids along with them and therefore the cannabinoid content would be higher than normal for the same amount of weight. Steam distillation and cannabis rosin are essentially the same thing. But maybe it doesn't work that way, who knows.
This method is equivalent to a joint in that when you roll a joint that is small,grinded well, even, and tight BUT still allows a good flow of air, you will get more smoke off a puff than you would with a joint that is rolled long, uneven, and loose and the reason for this is that the tight joint lowers atmospheric pressure INSIDE the joint which allows for more chemicals to be released at a temperature that a loose joint won't allow and being small allows for more terpenoids and cannabinoids per hit which means a faster and more effecient onset.
For me it also allows for a less lethargic high which I assume comes from the lack of a lot cannabinoids being degraded from the high heat that a loosely packed joint gives. This also applies to pipes. I get more high and more taste off of a evenly, tightly packed joint/pipe than I do off of an uneven,loose joint/pipe even though it's the same quantity. When it's not packed even, small and tight I get less taste and more of a stone than a high.
If anyone has a volcano vaporizer or any other vaporizer try it out and you will see that you get more vapor than a loosely packed one and feel more of an effect. Pack the chamber evenly and tight and see for yourself. If you are doing this for the first time I suggest you put the herb in layers first such as putting in one layer evenly than pressing down on it, then repeating this until you get the amount you want to use. Grinding the bud to a fine consistency increases the effects.
Anyone who has a vapordoc or any kind like it will have to inhale slowly to get a good amount of vapor because inhaling fast won't allow the heat to surround and vaporize the cannabinoids effectively which means less of an effect for each hit. To inhale REALLY slow with no problem, using spearmint or peppermint leaves right before or during a session will help you due to the menthol allowing you to keep from feeling the need to inhale air due to feeling like you are lacking air and feeling like an asthma attack is happening.
Now, I might not be explaining it right in scientific terms BUT I think in a more visual way than a verbal way due to me being left handed but if you do it the way I described you will see a difference. Peace.
Edit: I found a video of jack herer showing how he packs his pipe and this is how I'm describing my way to pack for more of an effect off of the same herb, although not as tight. He claims you can get 40 hits off of a .5 gram with his pipe but I think most of this comes from the way he packs his pipe as opposed to just the pipe alone.
Also, notice how he says that you get a fresh taste after every hit. This is exactly what happens when I roll small, even, tight, joints and pipes as well as staying lit easily which means no need to apply high heat from a lighter which gives a stonier high.
Here it is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2BoVvSwMiQ
I also think what's happening is that the volatile terpenes are being dissolved in the water which means that the cannabinoids will increase in concentration due to not being able to dissolve into the water. This is why I think cannabis rosin is stronger than the original product it comes from due to the terpenoids evaporating leaving behind the less volatile oils which have cannabinoids along with them and therefore the cannabinoid content would be higher than normal for the same amount of weight. Steam distillation and cannabis rosin are essentially the same thing. But maybe it doesn't work that way, who knows.
This method is equivalent to a joint in that when you roll a joint that is small,grinded well, even, and tight BUT still allows a good flow of air, you will get more smoke off a puff than you would with a joint that is rolled long, uneven, and loose and the reason for this is that the tight joint lowers atmospheric pressure INSIDE the joint which allows for more chemicals to be released at a temperature that a loose joint won't allow and being small allows for more terpenoids and cannabinoids per hit which means a faster and more effecient onset.
For me it also allows for a less lethargic high which I assume comes from the lack of a lot cannabinoids being degraded from the high heat that a loosely packed joint gives. This also applies to pipes. I get more high and more taste off of a evenly, tightly packed joint/pipe than I do off of an uneven,loose joint/pipe even though it's the same quantity. When it's not packed even, small and tight I get less taste and more of a stone than a high.
If anyone has a volcano vaporizer or any other vaporizer try it out and you will see that you get more vapor than a loosely packed one and feel more of an effect. Pack the chamber evenly and tight and see for yourself. If you are doing this for the first time I suggest you put the herb in layers first such as putting in one layer evenly than pressing down on it, then repeating this until you get the amount you want to use. Grinding the bud to a fine consistency increases the effects.
Anyone who has a vapordoc or any kind like it will have to inhale slowly to get a good amount of vapor because inhaling fast won't allow the heat to surround and vaporize the cannabinoids effectively which means less of an effect for each hit. To inhale REALLY slow with no problem, using spearmint or peppermint leaves right before or during a session will help you due to the menthol allowing you to keep from feeling the need to inhale air due to feeling like you are lacking air and feeling like an asthma attack is happening.
Now, I might not be explaining it right in scientific terms BUT I think in a more visual way than a verbal way due to me being left handed but if you do it the way I described you will see a difference. Peace.
Edit: I found a video of jack herer showing how he packs his pipe and this is how I'm describing my way to pack for more of an effect off of the same herb, although not as tight. He claims you can get 40 hits off of a .5 gram with his pipe but I think most of this comes from the way he packs his pipe as opposed to just the pipe alone.
Also, notice how he says that you get a fresh taste after every hit. This is exactly what happens when I roll small, even, tight, joints and pipes as well as staying lit easily which means no need to apply high heat from a lighter which gives a stonier high.
Here it is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2BoVvSwMiQ
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ChaoticEntity
Active member
ok here's my take.
if the water is not dissolving the cannabloids(which it isn't) then there is no way for the cannabloids to reach the required temperature at atmospheric pressure.
That said a quick google search towards merck says that under vacuum the vaporization temperature is ~200degF, but water will also boil at room temperature under vacuum. So you would need a liquid that is pure and has a boiling point of over 200degF under full vacuum.
so basically this is bunk, it makes no sense scientifically or logically, there is no way to distill out active cannabloids using water. It works well as a medium for water hash but not as a solute or carrier.
if you want high 90's% then you're going to be doing mutiple fractionalization distillations using hexane (2 for ~94% 3-5 for 97+%). now if you're willing to go this far why not try for a THC acetate or other neat analog.
if the water is not dissolving the cannabloids(which it isn't) then there is no way for the cannabloids to reach the required temperature at atmospheric pressure.
That said a quick google search towards merck says that under vacuum the vaporization temperature is ~200degF, but water will also boil at room temperature under vacuum. So you would need a liquid that is pure and has a boiling point of over 200degF under full vacuum.
so basically this is bunk, it makes no sense scientifically or logically, there is no way to distill out active cannabloids using water. It works well as a medium for water hash but not as a solute or carrier.
if you want high 90's% then you're going to be doing mutiple fractionalization distillations using hexane (2 for ~94% 3-5 for 97+%). now if you're willing to go this far why not try for a THC acetate or other neat analog.
ChaoticEntity
Active member
dear fucking god. Organic compounds are very very rarely clear(and if so then there's refractive indexing ect to determine IE safrole for those in the know)
and I know from personal experiece that high percentage THC(via mutiple hexane distillations,not crystallized but left in base form at 96% cannabloids; verified by a GC/MS) has an amber color to it, more translucent than an iso extraction but distinctly and very clearly amber. Of course as it oxidizes the color gets darker.
Saying it's clear 99% THC only makes you sound like a complete idiot who doesn't understand what you're talking about. Hell I have a decent lab setup and many many chem classes behind me and I don't always know proper termenology and exactly what's going on.
TO SUM UP AGAIN, OIL EXTRACTION USING WATER IS BUNK, IT'S FAKE, IT CANNOT BE DONE WITH THE PROPERTIES OF WATER ON THE PLANET EARTH.
It's also a good idea not to perpetuate myths like this. It's been explained if you understand then your set, if you dont then PM me and ask or pick up a chem book and start reading.
and I know from personal experiece that high percentage THC(via mutiple hexane distillations,not crystallized but left in base form at 96% cannabloids; verified by a GC/MS) has an amber color to it, more translucent than an iso extraction but distinctly and very clearly amber. Of course as it oxidizes the color gets darker.
Saying it's clear 99% THC only makes you sound like a complete idiot who doesn't understand what you're talking about. Hell I have a decent lab setup and many many chem classes behind me and I don't always know proper termenology and exactly what's going on.
TO SUM UP AGAIN, OIL EXTRACTION USING WATER IS BUNK, IT'S FAKE, IT CANNOT BE DONE WITH THE PROPERTIES OF WATER ON THE PLANET EARTH.
It's also a good idea not to perpetuate myths like this. It's been explained if you understand then your set, if you dont then PM me and ask or pick up a chem book and start reading.
ChaoticEntity,
FYI, 100% pure THC is as clear as water, that turns first violet, then reddish/brown with exposure to O2. The reason most oil is redish or brown is because the exposure to heat, O2, or moisture, or light has turned it from clear to redish. When the plant makes the THC it is clear.
I also think water extraction of THC is bunk.
-SamS
FYI, 100% pure THC is as clear as water, that turns first violet, then reddish/brown with exposure to O2. The reason most oil is redish or brown is because the exposure to heat, O2, or moisture, or light has turned it from clear to redish. When the plant makes the THC it is clear.
I also think water extraction of THC is bunk.
-SamS
G
Guest
It's technically possible if your steam is hot enough to vapourize the THC. Problem is, anything even remotely water-soluble is going to be lost the the steam.
NoNameNoshame
Member
Steam can still reach a temp higher than it's vapor point.....
As the temp of the steam raises different parts of the cannabis flower would vap off.....like it's own water and chlorophyll plus sugars.....the drugs would be some of the last to vap...........and the steam would be hot.
But steam doesn't reach a maximum temperature, not a temp that I've ever heard of.
As the temp of the steam raises different parts of the cannabis flower would vap off.....like it's own water and chlorophyll plus sugars.....the drugs would be some of the last to vap...........and the steam would be hot.
But steam doesn't reach a maximum temperature, not a temp that I've ever heard of.
G
Guest
Steam can get way hotter than 100C.
G
Guest
I was thinking more about this and I think using some vodka with no more than 40% alcohol(to prevent flames) that has been cleaned by being ran through a charcoal filter such as the gray kangaroo(www.graykangaroo.com), and then using that in the distiller will give you a good amount of thc extraction because thc and the essential oils are alcohol soluble as well as water soluble and by using a nice, clean, vodka, you can extract just the pure oils and leave the waxes behind.
In order to get rid of the alcohol to leave just the pure extract, you can put the extract back into the distiller or into something that can reach and hold a temperature of 173f because that's the temperature alcohol evaporates at. Once the alcohol is gone, the water will release the oils and they will rise to the top and you can extract just the oils any way you want.
Here's something explaining this more:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essential_oil
"Although highly fragrant, concretes contain large quantities of non-fragrant waxes and resins. As such another solvent, often ethyl alcohol, which only dissolves the fragrant low-molecular weight compounds, is used to extract the fragrant oil from the concrete. The alcohol is removed by a second distillation, leaving behind the absolute."
In order to get rid of the alcohol to leave just the pure extract, you can put the extract back into the distiller or into something that can reach and hold a temperature of 173f because that's the temperature alcohol evaporates at. Once the alcohol is gone, the water will release the oils and they will rise to the top and you can extract just the oils any way you want.
Here's something explaining this more:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essential_oil
"Although highly fragrant, concretes contain large quantities of non-fragrant waxes and resins. As such another solvent, often ethyl alcohol, which only dissolves the fragrant low-molecular weight compounds, is used to extract the fragrant oil from the concrete. The alcohol is removed by a second distillation, leaving behind the absolute."
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ChaoticEntity
Active member
Sam_Skunkman said:
really?! Cool! I've never see that! My high percentage extracts were done in hexane, rotovap'd redissolved in high percentage ether a couple of salt cleanings in ether/water, made anhydrous and then left to evap, I noticed first that the oil was fairly light in color but I've never seen it as a violet color, just varying shades of amber. Thanks for the great info now I just have to track down how this happens! Do you happen to have procedure? i'd like to see where my methodology differs.
Thanks for the great info man!
lotto that's a possible route. Water and ethyl alcohol form an azentrope, cant remember the temp and % at the moment, but you could do that and just do it as a fractionalization to get the lower aromatics and waxes out of the way(as a distillate) then take what's left in the flask and process it. Could have possibilities for lowering the amount of waxes in the oil thus allowing a higher percentage extraction with a less selective alcohol, thus drying what's left and running an iso batch could have a better % cannabloids. although 2-4 hours of lab time for 2-3% increase might not be worth it, this is a valid method and would allow for a better end product, I havent run a batch this way but the next time the glass is setup I will.
I did try a water distillation in the past by secondary heating of steam to 394degF(+- 4degF), I obtained a non psychactive but pleasent smelling distillate and very very sticky glassware, there was a fine resin layer all over the column and condenser.
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C
Chamba
the Arabs were distilling herbal essences thousands of years ago
A mate of mine was in a remote Indian village in the 70's and he saw an old man make a special mud oven with a bottom fire ..ganja (not sure if it was wet or dry?) was suspended at mid level and above was a horizontal exhaust pipe (flue) sticking out of the "oven" that was made from a roll of tin to collect the sticky stuff as the water condensates and runs off. He said the old guy was constantly adjusting the fire to make sure it was not too hot.. making sure the ganja was just right he removed the spent weed and new stuff placed in there every so often....he said the stuff the old guy scraped from the pipe got him very high....details were pretty sketchy ....
I guess the it's the same principal as smoking the stuff that clings to the downpipe of a bong or a vape?...would that be right Sam?
A mate of mine was in a remote Indian village in the 70's and he saw an old man make a special mud oven with a bottom fire ..ganja (not sure if it was wet or dry?) was suspended at mid level and above was a horizontal exhaust pipe (flue) sticking out of the "oven" that was made from a roll of tin to collect the sticky stuff as the water condensates and runs off. He said the old guy was constantly adjusting the fire to make sure it was not too hot.. making sure the ganja was just right he removed the spent weed and new stuff placed in there every so often....he said the stuff the old guy scraped from the pipe got him very high....details were pretty sketchy ....
I guess the it's the same principal as smoking the stuff that clings to the downpipe of a bong or a vape?...would that be right Sam?
G
Guest
Sam, you say you do test with gc and I was wondering what is your take on this quote from Dr. Hornby:
http://cannabisculture.com/articles/4552.html
"CC: Could you clear this up a little bit? What is Delta 9, how many compounds are you talking about?
DH: Delta 9-tetrahydrocannabinol is a psychoactive cannabinoid. It’s what gets you high. In B.C. bud, there are only five compounds in any great quantity. There’s tetrahydrocannabitriol acid – THCA abbreviated. Then there’s Delta 9-tetrahydrocannabinol (THC), there’s cannabinol (CBN), then cannabidiolic acid, and then there’s cannabidiol (CBD). Those are the five compounds you see in any sort of quantity in B.C. bud. This is the way they have been bred and environmentally manipulated by the breeders to produce these five compounds over the years, to push up the THC level. Now, when I look at a B.C. sample, the compound that you see in the most abundance is THCA, because when you heat THCA it converts directly one-to-one to Delta 9-tetrahydrocannabinol, the compound that gets you high. The way I analyse cannabis is by high pressure liquid chromatography, or HPLC. Ninety-nine percent of the analyses done on cannabinoids use gas chromatins. But liquid chromatography works at near room temperature; with gas chromatography, you have to heat the sample to vaporize it, to put it in the gaseous state. When you heat cannabis, you change its whole structure, you change its properties. You can heat the sample and stop it anywhere you want to get the Delta 9 concentration that you want, so gas chromotography can be manipulated to give a wide range of results. Because I’m not heating it, I see the way it is in nature, with the THCA unconverted to the Delta 9. When you see the way it is naturally, you get an idea of how to make the medicine. If you burn or heat the sample – if you do a gas chromatography – you miss all that, because the THCA is not psychoactive, and you’re converting it one to one to a compound that is (Delta 9). You shouldn’t do that to analyze it in its original state.".
http://cannabisculture.com/articles/4552.html
"CC: Could you clear this up a little bit? What is Delta 9, how many compounds are you talking about?
DH: Delta 9-tetrahydrocannabinol is a psychoactive cannabinoid. It’s what gets you high. In B.C. bud, there are only five compounds in any great quantity. There’s tetrahydrocannabitriol acid – THCA abbreviated. Then there’s Delta 9-tetrahydrocannabinol (THC), there’s cannabinol (CBN), then cannabidiolic acid, and then there’s cannabidiol (CBD). Those are the five compounds you see in any sort of quantity in B.C. bud. This is the way they have been bred and environmentally manipulated by the breeders to produce these five compounds over the years, to push up the THC level. Now, when I look at a B.C. sample, the compound that you see in the most abundance is THCA, because when you heat THCA it converts directly one-to-one to Delta 9-tetrahydrocannabinol, the compound that gets you high. The way I analyse cannabis is by high pressure liquid chromatography, or HPLC. Ninety-nine percent of the analyses done on cannabinoids use gas chromatins. But liquid chromatography works at near room temperature; with gas chromatography, you have to heat the sample to vaporize it, to put it in the gaseous state. When you heat cannabis, you change its whole structure, you change its properties. You can heat the sample and stop it anywhere you want to get the Delta 9 concentration that you want, so gas chromotography can be manipulated to give a wide range of results. Because I’m not heating it, I see the way it is in nature, with the THCA unconverted to the Delta 9. When you see the way it is naturally, you get an idea of how to make the medicine. If you burn or heat the sample – if you do a gas chromatography – you miss all that, because the THCA is not psychoactive, and you’re converting it one to one to a compound that is (Delta 9). You shouldn’t do that to analyze it in its original state.".
He is right about GC's Vs HPLC's in that HPLC's are used to determine both the acid compounds and the neutral decarboxilated cannabinoids. He is wrong about the importance of HPLC. Because the THCA acid form would only be found by eating uncooked buds or resin, which is not done a lot if ever.
THC, THCV, CBD, CBC, CBG, are the five Cannabinoids found in much Cannabis, although the other Cannabinoids besides THC in very small amounts, as well as CBN, which is not made by the plant per se, it is degraded and made from the other 5 cannabinoids with age.
As most Cannabis is heated to be smoked all that is important are the THC/THCA totals as that is what you in fact get. A GC gives you the total, a HPLC allows you to see both the acid and neutral forms, if needed. I use a GC because I am not interested in the acid forms, just the totals, anyway when the plant produces THC it is all in the form of THCA. Same with the other Cannabinoids.
He is wrong about a GC heating Cannabis and changing its structure and properties, as I explained you do not want THCA it does not get you high. So why mesure the THCA? To me all that is important is the THC/THCA total. I have both HPLC and GC. But I dont use my HPLC much at all.
All in all I would say Dr Hornby does not fully understand what he is talking about. I think he only did analysis a short time before he was forced to stop by the police in Canada. He talks about the importance of CBD, but to be honest CBD is not found in significant amounts in western bred Cannabis.
-SamS
THC, THCV, CBD, CBC, CBG, are the five Cannabinoids found in much Cannabis, although the other Cannabinoids besides THC in very small amounts, as well as CBN, which is not made by the plant per se, it is degraded and made from the other 5 cannabinoids with age.
As most Cannabis is heated to be smoked all that is important are the THC/THCA totals as that is what you in fact get. A GC gives you the total, a HPLC allows you to see both the acid and neutral forms, if needed. I use a GC because I am not interested in the acid forms, just the totals, anyway when the plant produces THC it is all in the form of THCA. Same with the other Cannabinoids.
He is wrong about a GC heating Cannabis and changing its structure and properties, as I explained you do not want THCA it does not get you high. So why mesure the THCA? To me all that is important is the THC/THCA total. I have both HPLC and GC. But I dont use my HPLC much at all.
All in all I would say Dr Hornby does not fully understand what he is talking about. I think he only did analysis a short time before he was forced to stop by the police in Canada. He talks about the importance of CBD, but to be honest CBD is not found in significant amounts in western bred Cannabis.
-SamS
