Dewaxing... Is H2O the answer?

[HashoftheTitans]

Greetings friends,

I have been doing a lot of extractions and have a few observations to share and some insight to collect before doing some experiments with removing waxes during butane extractions. With my current method, I let the waxes fall out of the butane solution on dry ice overnight. I have been very pleased with my results. I have no problem getting clear slabs every time. However, I am aware that there is still a significant amount of waxes left as compared to absolute. I know this because my SSD can be manipulated into crumble when my absolute can not.

Something interesting I noticed while boiling off my solvent was that when a flake of frost fell into my slowly boiling solvent and started bubbling. When I fished it out, it was a small amount of ice covered in wax. Because the butane was well below 32F the ice couldn't melt and gave the wax a place to collect. I proceeded to dip an ice cube into the solution for about ten seconds and removed it and it seemed to have a waxy film on it.

So my plan is to do a side by side experiment. I'm going to do 2 100 gram runs of the same material. With both I will do my overnight chilling on dry ice and then filter off the waxes. With one I will go straight to boiling off solvent and to the other I will add some crushed ice to the solution and let it soak for about a half hour before filtering off. I will then inspect what was left behind after the ice melts and evaporates.

I'm hoping that the ice will give the additional waxes something to stick to. I am no chemist and don't have any idea if it will work, but from what I have observed with waxes, ice, and cold temps I have a feeling that I will get some sort of positive result , just not sure how positive. Any thoughts or suggestions before I give it a go?

 

[dopecook]

I would rather make honey comb than stick an ice cube in my errl. Just sayin

 

[Elements001]

I'm very interested, can't wait to see the results. You never know, you could be on to something here.

 

[HashoftheTitans]

I would rather make honey comb than stick an ice cube in my errl. Just sayin

I know exactly where you're coming from. But I've pondered this for quite some time and I think that since my extractions are around -40 there is very little chance of any of it ending it up as water in my extract. I actually think that it could help pick up moisture from the solution since it would give it a place to collect. This is all speculation, and the reason I am going to do the experiment. I'm not doing it because I am displeased with the quality of my oil, but because I enjoy learning more about the process and understanding the components involved. Plus, I can think of a lot worse things that could touch my errl than some frozen water

 

[hairetsu]

I would never introduce water to my product, not in a million years. Winterizing can successfully remove most water moisture where as SSD can never be efficient in removal of water, leaving a more susceptible product to butter if not done right. If you find different results please let me know. just my 2 cents

 

[soysoz]

Everclear is 5% water. There is nothing wrong with adding water after you've successfully winterized. It will evaporate as easily as the ethanol.

 

[Daub Marley]

I would never introduce water to my product, not in a million years.

You already have unless you do your extractions in the freezing cold or the desert because gaseous water in the air will condense on the cold material.

Winterizing can successfully remove most water moisture

The alcohol grabs even more water out of the air and binds it with the oil. It hides it unless there's a lot of water which at that point will turn white.
Bottom line is that water being in the extract is not really a big deal. It can be removed easily, so continue on with your experiments OP. No reason to disregard everything because of a little water. Proceed.

 

[hairetsu]

Everclear is 5% water. There is nothing wrong with adding water after you've successfully winterized. It will evaporate as easily as the ethanol.

When you freeze your ethanol and filter, you leave behind 5% alcohol with your waxes fats and lipids

he's talking about a SSD not a winterize. There is no everclear ever being added to his solution.

 

[hairetsu]

5% water*

 

[hairetsu]

You already have unless you do your extractions in the freezing cold or the desert because gaseous water in the air will condense on the cold material.
The alcohol grabs even more water out of the air and binds it with the oil. It hides it unless there's a lot of water which at that point will turn white.
Bottom line is that water being in the extract is not really a big deal. It can be removed easily, so continue on with your experiments OP. No reason to disregard everything because of a little water. Proceed.

I use a closed loop extractor to control the environment from moisture. Rainy days can ruin a open blasters production flow. Sure there is always gonna be a lil moisture that is susceptible to getting into your product, I just like to remove any step where any can be introduced in quantity. I certainly wouldn't put ice near it =p

Even when i would purge in a pyrex dish i would use a sand bath to eliminate steam.



cheers!

 

[soysoz]

When you freeze your ethanol and filter, you leave behind 5% alcohol with your waxes fats and lipids

he's talking about a SSD not a winterize. There is no everclear ever being added to his solution.

Really? Last I checked everclear is an azeotrope with a freezing point well below what a conventional freezer can achieve. The crystallization of nonpolar waxes does not draw all of the water from the solution into the form of ice. Otherwise, finding 200 proof ethanol would be as simple and cheap as it's commercial brother.

 

[soysoz]

I was using everclear as an example of when we add water to extracts, not as an indication of how to dewax using HotT's idea.

 

[HashoftheTitans]

The point that is being missed is that there will never be additional LIQUID H2O added but Ice that will be stored in a separate container on dry ice. During my entire extraction the butane is no warmer than -20 and usually -40. So if you drop an ice cube in your butane, it is not going to melt and add water to the extract. I am actually suggesting that it may do the opposite by giving the small amount of water that has been picked up from the atmosphere a place to collect. I don't do your traditional open blasting and have very little issues with moisture. I know that the ice is not going to give me a problem. The question is if it can help me remove more waxes that just freezing my butane solution overnight on Dry ice and filtering. The key to remember is that I'm adding ICE not LIQUID H2O so it can be removed mechanically by filtering it off.

 

[cauldron]

what an ingenious idea! i for one am watching very closely, thanks for pioneering a potentially new tek.

 

[soysoz]

What property do you think is at play here? In other words, if I were to stick a shard of glass in the freezer and call that ice, why would it not accomplish the same thing as what you're describing here?

Not doubting, just trying to figure this out...

 

[HashoftheTitans]

Have you ever evaporated large runs in the open and seen waxes building up in the solution and fished them out? They usually have an icy buildup, before you pull them out and it will gain a little more from the atmosphere before it heats up and melts. This makes me believe that in a cold enough butane solution, additional waxes that can't be frozen and filtered at -50ish may collect on ice if there is enough present with enough surface area. As I stated before, I dipped an ice cube in a thoroughly dewaxed batch and it seemed to pick up a waxy film. That leads me to believe that there is definitely something to be looked into here. I'm hoping that the waxes will stick to the ice chunks much like they do to the bottom of a beaker set on dry ice.

 

[Chonkski]

Try repeating the step, a second, third and maybe even fourth winterization. Note what you pull, and what sticks to your ice each time.

Those notes could be very good indicators on this experiment of yours

 

[HashoftheTitans]

I filter multiple times the day of the extraction, let it chill packed in dry ice overnight, and filter again. I have let it sit longer and gotten nothing else out. I've done tons of experiments with dry ice and dewaxing and don't think I can get much more out with just cold temps and filtering. My dream is to do as efficient removal of waxes as an ethanol winterization with the terpene retention of single-solvent dewaxing. I know that's a lot to ask but if I can get a little bit closer by adding some simple steps to my process I will do so. I really don't know what to expect in terms of how much wax will be collected, but given my past experiences, I have a feeling I will pick up some if only a minuscule amount.

 

[Chonkski]

When I say a second and third ect. I mean waiting a full 12-24 hours on dry ice again.

When I do this I seem to pull a small amount every time

 

[HashoftheTitans]

I agree that the tiniest amount can be pulled out at a time. I get <.1g of wax out of 30g each time I re-chill and filter. This almost immeasurable amount is what I'm hoping to pick up with the ice soak. Waxes gather more easily when they are more highly concentrated. I believe this is because they stick together and form into thick enough wax balls to be caught in the filter. As you filter more off the concentration is lower so it is harder to get enough of them to collect into large enough groups to get caught in the filter. By introducing a lot of surface area of ice there will be plenty of area for the waxes to stick. I hate to use this term but when I dipped the ice cube in the solution, it seemed like a "wax magnet". It seemed silly how easy it was to pick up visible wax in a small amount of time from something that had gone through vigorous chilling and filtering. It was on my last batch of the day and I didn't have the opportunity to play around any more with it. I'm currently waiting for the dry ice store to re-stock and I'll be able to give it a whirl and see what happens.