Designing vert for the first time

[Cokezzz]

Hey all, I've been reading pretty consistently for the passed few months as I've been a long time lurker to these boards and was hoping I could get some input on the design of my next room. It is an 11 x 11 x 6 ft room in the basement. I hope to use the design recommended by DHF (among many others of course) and go w/ a 4 plant 5 light setup.

I believe my temps would be ok as I have another room setup near it at 10 x 10 x 6 ft that gets exhausted from a 100can scrubber through 4 vented 1k hps hoods out of a hurricane 745 cfm inline fan. Cold air is sucked directly from outside about 5 feet through an insulated duct, passively. It also sports an 8k btu window banger in case temps do creep up but with outside temps being as high in the low 90s where I'm from, the room has yet to breech 86 degrees. The dehuey keeping RH low near end is normally the hottest time.

Now with that being said, is it safe to assume that I could run a slightly larger room, open bulb, and expect similar results? Seems w/o less restriction via open hood, that a direct line from scrubber above the canopy and bee lined out through the same fan would be cooler room but I'm unsure of how 5k bare bulbs would compare to the 4k vented hoods.

Also (the reason why I posted in the first place, lol), is 11 x 11 x 6 ft a bit too big for the 4 plant 5 light setup? I was hoping to run 5 gal air pots from a DIY recirculating elevated res fed by blumats in 100% coco. Not sure if that will get me the thick 5-6 footers I hoped but I'm more concerned on the design of the room first. I read 9.5 is ideal so I'm unsure how efficient this would be being 1 1/2 ft longer along the walls and if I'd be better served w/ a different approach to vert.

Appreciate any help, thanks guys!

 

[Cokezzz]

Pretty close to pulling the trigger on the setup, just kinda slowly picking up the equipment. I just don't want to put this room together if it were not optimal from the start as 11x11 may be a bit too big.

I understand many things can effect the final outcome of the temp and comparing the 2 rooms may be pointless. If anyone has some thoughts, I'm all ears but definitely more concerned if building this room w/ this design might not be ideal.

Help a nub member out y'all! Thanks again!

 

[touchofgrey]

Having the room a bit bigger isn't necessarily a bad thing. It's nice to have some room to walk around the perimeter and also, the larger volume helps dissipate the heat generated by the lights.

As far as exhaust, I assume you have found and read Ventilation 101. To cool a room with just airflow you are calculating cfm based on what you assume will be normal operating condition, lets say a 10 degree rise between intake air and desired room temp. Simple math, CFM = 3.16*Total Watts/Temp Diff. For 5000 watts that calculates to 1580 cfm. But that also says once the intake air rises above 68 your not going to be able to keep the room under 78. You can also see when the intake is at 50 degrees you want to reduce the airflow to keep the room above 70. I have a spreadsheet I use and for 5K it looks like this:
OA @65° CFM @ 10° DT = 1580 CFM
OA @55° CFM @ 20° DT = 790 CFM
OA @45° CFM @ 30° DT = 527 CFM
OA @35° CFM @ 40° DT = 395 CFM

Your room is 726 cu ft. The rule of thumb around here for exhaust is 2x volume so that is about 1550 cfm which matches the calculations pretty good for a 10 degree rise. Note these numbers are all net airflow after accounting for losses in ductwork and filters. Since you say you hit 90's sometimes you will need to have backup AC or backup exhaust.

 

[DHF]

Having the room a bit bigger isn't necessarily a bad thing. It's nice to have some room to walk around the perimeter and also, the larger volume helps dissipate the heat generated by the lights.

As far as exhaust, I assume you have found and read Ventilation 101. To cool a room with just airflow you are calculating cfm based on what you assume will be normal operating condition, lets say a 10 degree rise between intake air and desired room temp. Simple math, CFM = 3.16*Total Watts/Temp Diff. For 5000 watts that calculates to 1580 cfm. But that also says once the intake air rises above 68 your not going to be able to keep the room under 78. You can also see when the intake is at 50 degrees you want to reduce the airflow to keep the room above 70. I have a spreadsheet I use and for 5K it looks like this:
OA @65° CFM @ 10° DT = 1580 CFM
OA @55° CFM @ 20° DT = 790 CFM
OA @45° CFM @ 30° DT = 527 CFM
OA @35° CFM @ 40° DT = 395 CFM

Your room is 726 cu ft. The rule of thumb around here for exhaust is 2x volume so that is about 1550 cfm which matches the calculations pretty good for a 10 degree rise. Note these numbers are all net airflow after accounting for losses in ductwork and filters. Since you say you hit 90's sometimes you will need to have backup AC or backup exhaust.

Damn TOG.....Major respect for comin up with that info for formulas on how many cfm`s per temp variation to get to another temp.......

All that came from ventilation 101 thread ?......I gotta start reccomendin that thread more....Me ?.....Most all know I preach air exchange twice per minute and shit`s worked for me many many yrs....but...

I`ve ALWAYS`had A/C`s and dehueys onsite if needed , but back to your question of 11 x 11 being too big for a 4 plant 5 light setup , and the answer`s 10 x 10`s perfect for 5KW , 11 x 11`s less watts per sq ft , but it gives yas more room to dial the room with the feed setup and see whatchas can pull out of it with lil over 45 watts per sq ft.....Hell....

I grew 5' tall and wide 2 1/2 lb plants in krusty buckets for a decade with 3400 watts usin 600`s in the corners , but my strain and environment was dialed to the T.....

50 watts per sq ft don`t guarantee more yield , but what it does do is give your plants once dialed a chance at being all they can be density , smell , and taste wise after a proper dry and cure.....

Lesser wattage makes for fluffier/airier nuggage IME , so that`s why I preach 50 watts per sq ft as optimum , cuz more runs into heat stress , light bleaching , and scorching.....anyways.....

Welcome to Vert-ville....I`m not around much and don`t post as much these days , but I`m around....Good luck and holler if I can help....

Peace....DHF.........

 

[touchofgrey]

All that came from ventilation 101 thread ?......I gotta start recommendin that thread more...

lol yes, all that and more. You really only have to read the first 10 pages or so to get a pretty good understanding of air flow and static pressure. Knowledge is power, right

Seems like most people just get a slightly oversize fan that can handle a speed control and run full blast in the summer and dial it back in the winter.

 

[Cokezzz]

Thanks for the replies you guys!

Having the room a bit bigger isn't necessarily a bad thing. It's nice to have some room to walk around the perimeter and also, the larger volume helps dissipate the heat generated by the lights.

As far as exhaust, I assume you have found and read Ventilation 101. To cool a room with just airflow you are calculating cfm based on what you assume will be normal operating condition, lets say a 10 degree rise between intake air and desired room temp. Simple math, CFM = 3.16*Total Watts/Temp Diff. For 5000 watts that calculates to 1580 cfm. But that also says once the intake air rises above 68 your not going to be able to keep the room under 78. You can also see when the intake is at 50 degrees you want to reduce the airflow to keep the room above 70. I have a spreadsheet I use and for 5K it looks like this:
OA @65° CFM @ 10° DT = 1580 CFM
OA @55° CFM @ 20° DT = 790 CFM
OA @45° CFM @ 30° DT = 527 CFM
OA @35° CFM @ 40° DT = 395 CFM

Your room is 726 cu ft. The rule of thumb around here for exhaust is 2x volume so that is about 1550 cfm which matches the calculations pretty good for a 10 degree rise. Note these numbers are all net airflow after accounting for losses in ductwork and filters. Since you say you hit 90's sometimes you will need to have backup AC or backup exhaust.

Damn ToG, I read the first page of the 101 ventilation FAQ when originally setting up my system, but most of the info went waaaay over my head, lol. I'm way too slow for all that, and I was also planning to go w/ a sealed room + co2 enrichment initially. So I purchased the equipment that I thought would be enough to just clear the hoods of enough heat and provide the co2 enrichment after getting a few runs under my belt. Well, found out the hard way first round that sealed room w/ 0 dedicated intake to provide fresh air was a huge debbie downer. I readjusted with what I had which was a 745 Hurricane inline and just tacked it to my thermostat controller and instead of having the lights on a closed circuit, I just used one end as the passive intake. It has allowed me to dial the room temps down to the T. I have wanted to upgrade the fan tho, because I have read that 2x the volume is the common ground around here as to get complete air exchange twice per minute. But since it's already dialed, would my current air exchange (which I assume is once per min) be outweighed by a stronger fan as I'm fairly sure I would have to provide additional heat to keep myself in the 72-78 range? As it stands, sometimes even now the exhaust shuts off because the temps can go sub 72 lights on.

Damn TOG.....Major respect for comin up with that info for formulas on how many cfm`s per temp variation to get to another temp.......

All that came from ventilation 101 thread ?......I gotta start reccomendin that thread more....Me ?.....Most all know I preach air exchange twice per minute and shit`s worked for me many many yrs....but...

I`ve ALWAYS`had A/C`s and dehueys onsite if needed , but back to your question of 11 x 11 being too big for a 4 plant 5 light setup , and the answer`s 10 x 10`s perfect for 5KW , 11 x 11`s less watts per sq ft , but it gives yas more room to dial the room with the feed setup and see whatchas can pull out of it with lil over 45 watts per sq ft.....Hell....

I grew 5' tall and wide 2 1/2 lb plants in krusty buckets for a decade with 3400 watts usin 600`s in the corners , but my strain and environment was dialed to the T.....

50 watts per sq ft don`t guarantee more yield , but what it does do is give your plants once dialed a chance at being all they can be density , smell , and taste wise after a proper dry and cure.....

Lesser wattage makes for fluffier/airier nuggage IME , so that`s why I preach 50 watts per sq ft as optimum , cuz more runs into heat stress , light bleaching , and scorching.....anyways.....

Welcome to Vert-ville....I`m not around much and don`t post as much these days , but I`m around....Good luck and holler if I can help....

Peace....DHF.........

Hey DHF, thanks for the wise words. I was considering walling up the room to get it around 10x10 or 9x9 but I'm starting to think F all that noise and just KISS, lol. I keep on trying to 'optimize' this and 'ideal' that but I keep ending up back on my own tail and tell myself to just keep it simple. Experienced growers like you guys always reassure me in the end that simplicity goes a long ways and 'dialing' is numero uno; less is definitely more. With that in mind, I'm just going to reflectix up that room as is, space out 5 1k Ushios w/ an MH in the center, 4 plants. I was maybe dabbing on the idea that I might be better served w/a higher plant around say 4 lights or something, but I really really want them huge ass trees of awesomeness. I think I'm already somewhat at a disadvantage w/ the 6 ft height issue.

Would the 5 gal air pots fed through regular size blumats be enough to get her to around 5+ feet? I know the general rule is 1 ft per gal, but I'd still be able to rest a lot easier knowing that the size I choose will fit the bill. Been spending waaaay too many sleepless nights on these boards trying to get er done but I always pick up new information on my quest which is gold IMO.

And also, anyone know of tomato cages that would support about 6 footers around said 5 gal air pots? I've seen this and that about texas tomato cages from farmtek, but I still don't know my mm's from my cm's so if anyone had the info at hand, it would be appreciated. No big if not, I'll just get down and dirty w/ some measuring. I know you'll recommend chicken wire DHF, but I'm lazy and I'd rather just slap something right on er. Or just center a hook like Heath and just tie er up, lol.

Thanks again ToG for all the footwork, saved me a lot of troubles and mathematical equations that I just simply would not be able to wrap my head around! And to DHF, I've been marathonning google searches of "site:icmag.com dhf vert xxx" and I have to say, you've helped me and the community tremendously. Thank you so much and I hope these laid back days are treating you well!

 

[Mister_D]

Seems you're in good hands here , but i'll answer a couple questions while I'm around .

1. 5 gal. pots are fine for 5x5 plants,. Though that is about as big as you'd want to go with your current skill set.

2. Blumats will work, but I'd recommend using two per pot, and switching to maxi's instead. Either should work, but I'd strongly recommend going with the maxi'. The longer cone gives a more accurate reading in a deep pot. Also make sure the down pressure from your elevated res is constant (i.e setup auto top off so it always stays full).

3. Instead of tomato cages I'd recommend hog fence, sold at farm supply stores (in rolls) and also home depot as concrete grate (5x10' sheets). It's just wire fence with large 4x4-5x5" square holes in it. Easily bends into a cylinder shape around your plants, and it's thick enough to be free standing. Those texas tomato cages are really nice, but pricey.

4. Remember KISS is always better

 

[DHF]

Seems you're in good hands here , but i'll answer a couple questions while I'm around .

1. 5 gal. pots are fine for 5x5 plants,. Though that is about as big as you'd want to go with your current skill set.

2. Blumats will work, but I'd recommend using two per pot, and switching to maxi's instead. Either should work, but I'd strongly recommend going with the maxi'. The longer cone gives a more accurate reading in a deep pot. Also make sure the down pressure from your elevated res is constant (i.e setup auto top off so it always stays full).

3. Instead of tomato cages I'd recommend hog fence, sold at farm supply stores (in rolls) and also home depot as concrete grate (5x10' sheets). It's just wire fence with large 4x4-5x5" square holes in it. Easily bends into a cylinder shape around your plants, and it's thick enough to be free standing. Those texas tomato cages are really nice, but pricey.

4. Remember KISS is always better

Thank Gawd you`re round hereta help my old ass with the heavy liftin...LOL...now....I second the motion on ALL Dbro`s screamin , but chickenwire on the ceilings is and was ALWAYS for openin the plants up and OUT for optimum airflow and lumen penetration/plant absorption , while holdin em up kinda ended up as a secondary function that started out as primary.....regardless....

Growin big plants takes runs under yer belt learnin each strains plant structure , feed requirements , and most importantly the flowering tendencies , to learn howta clean out insides and sucker branches to fully develop EVERY lateral and top cola so max returns by end of cycle can become consistent run after run ....

Make sure yas put silicablast in your everyday feed regimen for stemwall strength and overall plant health as well , and ......Yas got way more footprint width-wise than vertically , so ......

Do your homework on toppin and supercroppin to spread the plants more sideways than up while still developing as vertical as possible plant canopy since each plant will be blasted by 3 lights at all times for max inner plant penetration ......Just sayin......

Your gonna lose at LEAST 2' from the floor taken up by container and mainstem lower pruning early on , so 4' plants is all yas can hope for , and finding strains/phenotypes that make multiple colas once topped will guarantee as much possible nuggage for yas for plant width instead of height...and for the record.....

I`ve never topped a plant in my life....ever.....delays plant growth along with recovery and "stall" time , BUT.....with limited height my long time saying/Sig of "Adapt or Perish" comes to mind and holds true with your situation...anyways....

Pre-98 Bubba and strong coffee always make me run off at the mouth errr keyboard , so my old ass is after some biscuits and gravy with fresh sliced maters , scrambled eggs and cheese grits , a mound of MY cured/smoked bacon , morning sex for dessert and a nap............and lastly......

Yes Cokezzz.....Life is good....If I was any better off I`d haveta be twins.....Holler if I can help , but there`s MANY experienced and knowledgeable growers round here besides me ........ D9 , HL45 , Flower Farmer come to mind for big plants....... Bobbles , and Mr D especially for all the rules and regulations A-Z.....

GF said get my ass to the kitchen table......

Peace....DHF..........

 

[frankenstein2]

Doing the math for 50 watts per square, if you made the room 10 x 10, it would be perfect for the 5 lights, if they were 1000's. I'm building your room in my head as I type. I love setting rooms up and trying to make them perfect. All I can say is go overkill on your exhaust/fresh air intake. You won't be sorry. Your gonna need a strain that likes to get medium tall and bushy, so keep that in mind. With only 6' cielings it's gonna be perfect as far as light intensity goes. All parts of your plants will be getting blasted with super intense light no matter what their height is. Good luck and keep us updated with some sweet pics.

 

[otis33]

welcome to vert-ville! I love a good x pattern tree grow, can't wait to see some pics...

 

[touchofgrey]

Thanks for the replies you guys!

Damn ToG, I read the first page of the 101 ventilation FAQ when originally setting up my system, but most of the info went waaaay over my head, lol. I'm way too slow for all that, and I was also planning to go w/ a sealed room + co2 enrichment initially. So I purchased the equipment that I thought would be enough to just clear the hoods of enough heat and provide the co2 enrichment after getting a few runs under my belt. Well, found out the hard way first round that sealed room w/ 0 dedicated intake to provide fresh air was a huge debbie downer. I readjusted with what I had which was a 745 Hurricane inline and just tacked it to my thermostat controller and instead of having the lights on a closed circuit, I just used one end as the passive intake. It has allowed me to dial the room temps down to the T. I have wanted to upgrade the fan tho, because I have read that 2x the volume is the common ground around here as to get complete air exchange twice per minute. But since it's already dialed, would my current air exchange (which I assume is once per min) be outweighed by a stronger fan as I'm fairly sure I would have to provide additional heat to keep myself in the 72-78 range? As it stands, sometimes even now the exhaust shuts off because the temps can go sub 72 lights on.

I'm a little confused. Sounds like your saying you have AC hoods at this time and also that you have low ambient temps . The cooling formula I threw out is for bare bulbs, hoods skew the numbers but I've found if you have a cooled hood (with dedicated intake and exhaust) and calculate for a separate exhaust using a 20 degree temp rise that gets you close, sorta like saying the AC hood takes out half the heat.

The option of a sealed room with CO2 means your going to need an AC unit. There is 3412 BTUH generated per KW so 5KW will need a unit with about 20,000 BTUH capacity.

Edit: I reread your post after medicating and am less confused. Switching from the hoods to vertical will need more exhaust, I'm sure. Sounds like you have a good temperature control switch - it just turns the fan on or off, right? That is needed when your intake is getting cold winter air. With a bigger fan to handle the max summer load with bare bulbs it would be better if there was a variable speed setting for the fan too. CAP makes a fan controller that works pretty good for this. http://www.ecogrow.com/cap-variable-fan-speed-controller-daynight-vscdne-p-1259.html and here's a reconditioned unit for cheap http://www.discount-hydro.com/c-a-p...ller-day-night-vsc-dne-factory-reconditioned/ It automatically ramps up or down the speed according to the room temp and will also shut off the fan when temps drop below a set point.

Some people don't care much for CAP products. Titan makes a similar controller but it's more expensive. http://www.hydroponics.net/i/135897

 

[Cokezzz]

Seems you're in good hands here , but i'll answer a couple questions while I'm around .

1. 5 gal. pots are fine for 5x5 plants,. Though that is about as big as you'd want to go with your current skill set.

2. Blumats will work, but I'd recommend using two per pot, and switching to maxi's instead. Either should work, but I'd strongly recommend going with the maxi'. The longer cone gives a more accurate reading in a deep pot. Also make sure the down pressure from your elevated res is constant (i.e setup auto top off so it always stays full).

3. Instead of tomato cages I'd recommend hog fence, sold at farm supply stores (in rolls) and also home depot as concrete grate (5x10' sheets). It's just wire fence with large 4x4-5x5" square holes in it. Easily bends into a cylinder shape around your plants, and it's thick enough to be free standing. Those texas tomato cages are really nice, but pricey.

4. Remember KISS is always better

Going to respond to these in separate posts as I can't manage these responses and there's so much good information! MrD, for the longest time I was debating whether or not to go w/ 2x regular size blumats or w/ the maxis. I settled on one regular size per pot as going w/ what sustainablevillage says that 1 reg would feed up to a 10 gal size pot. I'm more confident w/ what an experienced grower says, especially since I'm going w/ air pots so I'm just going to opt for the maxi instead. Although, I'm going to try one per plant for now, and add if needed.

As for the res, I'm not sure what you meant by setup auto top off. My plan is to get a 27gal http://www.lowes.com/pd_44066-61896...27+gal&pl=1&currentURL=?Ntt=27+gal&facetInfo= and have a 5 gal bucket raised above it. Throw a small sub pump that can do around 5gpm (maybe less, I think that may be a bit overkill) and have that feeding into the elevated bucket. Cut another hole into the elevated res to keep anywhere from 3-4 gals and have it feed back into the 27 gal to keep it circulating. I was also debating whether or not to add some air stones, but I don't want to have too much electrical going on in there. So I'm just going to stick w/ the pump to circulate all the juice between the 2 res. I'm going to try w/ the res in the same room for now, esp since I have a bit more room to work with and if it keeps the juice too hot, move em outside if need be. I hope the elevated res is what you meant by auto top off as that's what I'm going to do! XD

I really really like the tomato cages and I don't mind splurging a little bit. But I hear you and once I finally go pick up all the materials, I'll finally decide whether I want to go w/ a ring, hog fence or chicken wire. But just to be clear, is that hog fence the same as a chicken wire? Like, would I just bend em into a circle around my girls and stack it up to the ceiling?

 

[Cokezzz]

Thank Gawd you`re round hereta help my old ass with the heavy liftin...LOL...now....I second the motion on ALL Dbro`s screamin , but chickenwire on the ceilings is and was ALWAYS for openin the plants up and OUT for optimum airflow and lumen penetration/plant absorption , while holdin em up kinda ended up as a secondary function that started out as primary.....regardless....

Growin big plants takes runs under yer belt learnin each strains plant structure , feed requirements , and most importantly the flowering tendencies , to learn howta clean out insides and sucker branches to fully develop EVERY lateral and top cola so max returns by end of cycle can become consistent run after run ....

Make sure yas put silicablast in your everyday feed regimen for stemwall strength and overall plant health as well , and ......Yas got way more footprint width-wise than vertically , so ......

Do your homework on toppin and supercroppin to spread the plants more sideways than up while still developing as vertical as possible plant canopy since each plant will be blasted by 3 lights at all times for max inner plant penetration ......Just sayin......

Your gonna lose at LEAST 2' from the floor taken up by container and mainstem lower pruning early on , so 4' plants is all yas can hope for , and finding strains/phenotypes that make multiple colas once topped will guarantee as much possible nuggage for yas for plant width instead of height...and for the record.....

I`ve never topped a plant in my life....ever.....delays plant growth along with recovery and "stall" time , BUT.....with limited height my long time saying/Sig of "Adapt or Perish" comes to mind and holds true with your situation...anyways....

Pre-98 Bubba and strong coffee always make me run off at the mouth errr keyboard , so my old ass is after some biscuits and gravy with fresh sliced maters , scrambled eggs and cheese grits , a mound of MY cured/smoked bacon , morning sex for dessert and a nap............and lastly......

Yes Cokezzz.....Life is good....If I was any better off I`d haveta be twins.....Holler if I can help , but there`s MANY experienced and knowledgeable growers round here besides me ........ D9 , HL45 , Flower Farmer come to mind for big plants....... Bobbles , and Mr D especially for all the rules and regulations A-Z.....

GF said get my ass to the kitchen table......

Peace....DHF..........

I asked MrD just a second ago, but when you use chicken wire, do you just form it into a circle around your girls then literally just staple it to the ceiling? I understand the uses of it as in my horizontal scrog, I feel like everything below the trellis is just popcorn shit so it gets taken outta there. I'm just a bit unsure of how to install said hardware since I've also seen people actually just take a flat piece of chicken wire and just hang it straight up and make a straight wall along the girl instead of keeping it cylindrical.

I just started adding silicablast to my girls this past week as per your high recommendation of it. I also added SM-90 to the mix as I got nervous w/ RA scares. I've since confirmed that they're actually bene mites but I don't like anything crawling in that medium. So from now on, I will be inoculating them on every feed. I ALSO just not too long ago stepped on the holy grail that is drip clean a few weeks ago. I had a bit of problem w/ salt buildup so I gave the ladies a nice bath w/ 600ppm strength including said drip clean. The ladies are definitely loving it. Oh and to not confuse, I'm speaking about room 1 w/ my horizontal scrog grow. It's a 10 x 10 x 6 ft blasted by 4x1000w HPS and today was actually day 1 of 12/12. Questions about a vert design will be in a room near my horizontal grow, that I will be building in the next few weeks or so.

I've played around w/ LST, topping and supercropping and I've finally come to a happy medium of letting them grow as they please until they hit the trellis. I then top, tuck and weave them into the trellis and slowly remove all the popcorn/larf shit under the net. I am so far happy w/ the results. Supercropping is nice, but I got some heavy hands and I'm tired of buying duct tape, lol. So I only use this method on more stubborn branches. With the vert grow tho, I'll take you up on that suggestion and try building bushes from the start. That way I can make up for whatever I lose in height w/ width. All I need to do is dial in a new grow style and just learn when to flip. Definitely feeling that 'Adapt or Perish' motto.

I've been going through everyone's grow that you mentioned and not only them but also Alien Dawg, Bobblehead, ToG's build and so on and so forth. All I can really say is that I'm super impressed by everyone on these boards, for the most part, and am only hoping to eventually add to an already awesome community. I'm glad retirement is treating you well and that breakfast sounds fucking amazing, lol. I normally just get the dessert and nap as these 40+ week hours leave no time for food! Thanks brotha!

 

[Cokezzz]

Doing the math for 50 watts per square, if you made the room 10 x 10, it would be perfect for the 5 lights, if they were 1000's. I'm building your room in my head as I type. I love setting rooms up and trying to make them perfect. All I can say is go overkill on your exhaust/fresh air intake. You won't be sorry. Your gonna need a strain that likes to get medium tall and bushy, so keep that in mind. With only 6' cielings it's gonna be perfect as far as light intensity goes. All parts of your plants will be getting blasted with super intense light no matter what their height is. Good luck and keep us updated with some sweet pics.

welcome to vert-ville! I love a good x pattern tree grow, can't wait to see some pics...

Thanks for the love guys!

Frank, man... I heeeearrrr you, lol. I love this designing stuff but man, it sure takes it out of you. I really want to make a box inside of this room, but I'm lazy as all hell when it all comes down to it so I'm just going to KISS, lol. Leave it as is and just dial it as best I can. Definitely want to overkill on the exhaust fan, but I'm trying to play around w/ the design. I have 2 rooms, my horizontal scrog room is lit by 4x1000w vented hoods. Right now, they're used to suck air out of room 1 starting w/ a 100can scrubber pulled out by a 745 Hurricane inline fan. And an 8" passive intake ducted directly from outside and while I want to add more passive intake, I will be ultimately sealing this room and going w/ co2 enrichment. So, what I'm thinking is to close the circuit and have said 745CFM fan push through the 4 hoods, pulling fresh air directly from outside and on the opposite end have another 745 assisting in pulling air through the hoods. I will then lead this into the vert room and have what I think will be a 10" maxcan fan rated for continuous 1k CFM sucking it out and throwing it back outside. I hope this will be enough and I can dial it in w/o too much issue.

Otis, thanks for the warm welcome! I've always wanted to document my grows, but I'm kinda glad I'm doing it this way. I'd be somewhat embarrassed to show my first 2 grows and while my last 2 were pretty good, I think I can finally have an end product that I'll be proud of. On my first vert grow, I will be documenting the whole run that way, we can all enjoy it and if I ever run into any problems, I'll have all you kickass growers to help me along the way!

 

[Cokezzz]

I'm a little confused. Sounds like your saying you have AC hoods at this time and also that you have low ambient temps . The cooling formula I threw out is for bare bulbs, hoods skew the numbers but I've found if you have a cooled hood (with dedicated intake and exhaust) and calculate for a separate exhaust using a 20 degree temp rise that gets you close, sorta like saying the AC hood takes out half the heat.

The option of a sealed room with CO2 means your going to need an AC unit. There is 3412 BTUH generated per KW so 5KW will need a unit with about 20,000 BTUH capacity.

Edit: I reread your post after medicating and am less confused. Switching from the hoods to vertical will need more exhaust, I'm sure. Sounds like you have a good temperature control switch - it just turns the fan on or off, right? That is needed when your intake is getting cold winter air. With a bigger fan to handle the max summer load with bare bulbs it would be better if there was a variable speed setting for the fan too. CAP makes a fan controller that works pretty good for this. http://www.ecogrow.com/cap-variable-fan-speed-controller-daynight-vscdne-p-1259.html and here's a reconditioned unit for cheap http://www.discount-hydro.com/c-a-p...ller-day-night-vsc-dne-factory-reconditioned/ It automatically ramps up or down the speed according to the room temp and will also shut off the fan when temps drop below a set point.

Some people don't care much for CAP products. Titan makes a similar controller but it's more expensive. http://www.hydroponics.net/i/135897

Yea, sorry to confuse brotha. I currently have a 10x10x6ft horizontal scrog grow that I actually just flipped 12/12 yesterday. As it stands now, it is a fresh air exchange room w/ 4x1000w HPS and only one 745CFM fan pulling out of the room. It has an 8k window banger and dehuey on standby to get the dialage perfect. I'm using the zephyr model from titan and all it does is turn on/off the exhaust when it meets the day/night setpoints. I just recently decided on the Mercury 4 as it has the added option of finetuning the idle power instead of just slowing it down like the Mercury 3. But!, after per your suggestions, you're making me think if it really is not needed and if I should just roll w/ the 3, that reconditioned one from CAP or w/ the sentinel since I ultimately just want to KISS. Ahhhhhh and I thought I finally had that one all figured out! Food for thought tho as I have several weeks til I get this all up and running anyways. As always man, thanks for the suggestions, I hope you're around awhile brotha!

 

[touchofgrey]

Cool, you've got it. Near as I can tell the Titan 3 has the same functions as the CAP. They both shut the fan off at low temps but the Titan 4 just goes down to idle speed. That's good to keep the humidity from getting too high during lights off but if you have really low intake air temps an idle all night could have you 40 degrees in the morning. I think the 3 would do you fine.

 

[Mister_D]

Going to respond to these in separate posts as I can't manage these responses and there's so much good information! MrD, for the longest time I was debating whether or not to go w/ 2x regular size blumats or w/ the maxis. I settled on one regular size per pot as going w/ what sustainablevillage says that 1 reg would feed up to a 10 gal size pot. I'm more confident w/ what an experienced grower says, especially since I'm going w/ air pots so I'm just going to opt for the maxi instead. Although, I'm going to try one per plant for now, and add if needed.

Trust me, I used regular blumats on 5 gal. pots. They work fine for the most part, but maxis will do a much better job of keeping an even water profile in your pot. Either one you choose I still recommend two per pot for anything 5 gal. and over. Blumats can be finicky for some, having two per pot just gives you a lot better insurance that, A. they work correctly (cone sensor is kind of a bitch), and B. if one clogs (easy to do with that tiny drip line) you have another to pick up the slack.

As for the res, I'm not sure what you meant by setup auto top off. My plan is to get a 27gal http://www.lowes.com/pd_44066-61896...27+gal&pl=1&currentURL=?Ntt=27+gal&facetInfo= and have a 5 gal bucket raised above it. Throw a small sub pump that can do around 5gpm (maybe less, I think that may be a bit overkill) and have that feeding into the elevated bucket. Cut another hole into the elevated res to keep anywhere from 3-4 gals and have it feed back into the 27 gal to keep it circulating. I was also debating whether or not to add some air stones, but I don't want to have too much electrical going on in there. So I'm just going to stick w/ the pump to circulate all the juice between the 2 res. I'm going to try w/ the res in the same room for now, esp since I have a bit more room to work with and if it keeps the juice too hot, move em outside if need be. I hope the elevated res is what you meant by auto top off as that's what I'm going to do! XD

That is exactly what I meant The idea is to keep the water level consistent in the upper res (5 gal. bucket in your case). This keeps the down pressure on the blumats consistent, which makes them work a lot more reliably.

I really really like the tomato cages and I don't mind splurging a little bit. But I hear you and once I finally go pick up all the materials, I'll finally decide whether I want to go w/ a ring, hog fence or chicken wire. But just to be clear, is that hog fence the same as a chicken wire? Like, would I just bend em into a circle around my girls and stack it up to the ceiling?

In the sense that you just bend them into a circle they are the same. Difference being hog fence is MUCH thicker/heavier duty wire, so it will free stand without any supports. It also has bigger holes that hands fit through , makes training much easier. Chicken wire is for putting on the ceiling, and trying off branches with string . Hog fence is what you want for making cages.

 

[Cokezzz]

Cool, you've got it. Near as I can tell the Titan 3 has the same functions as the CAP. They both shut the fan off at low temps but the Titan 4 just goes down to idle speed. That's good to keep the humidity from getting too high during lights off but if you have really low intake air temps an idle all night could have you 40 degrees in the morning. I think the 3 would do you fine.

Actually, both the Titan mercury 3 and the CAP, like you suggested, also go down to an idle speed. They do shutoff when it goes below a certain threshold but they both sport an actual fan speed controller unlike my current Titan zephyr which just turns on and off according to the setpoint. The Titan mercury 4 though, has 3 different modes you can set it to and one being most important to me is that it will run during the day at idle to full blast keeping it close to my setpoint and at night, will idle to full blast w/ the added benefit of shutting off completely if the setpoint is met. You can also adjust these inversely or both w/ the shutoff mechanic which is nice for a more complete dialing of environment. I'm just lazy as all hell though, I want to plug it in and say "hey, dude, daytime 78 night time 68. make it happen" and go back to just 40+ hours of work w/o having to feed, monitor temps etc. XD Wishful thinking I guess. KISSing too damn tough sometimes!

 

[Cokezzz]

Trust me, I used regular blumats on 5 gal. pots. They work fine for the most part, but maxis will do a much better job of keeping an even water profile in your pot. Either one you choose I still recommend two per pot for anything 5 gal. and over. Blumats can be finicky for some, having two per pot just gives you a lot better insurance that, A. they work correctly (cone sensor is kind of a bitch), and B. if one clogs (easy to do with that tiny drip line) you have another to pick up the slack.

Alright MrD, I am sold. 2 x Maxis is what I'm going to rock. Thanks for talking me out of the single. I sure as hell don't want the ladies lopsided, uneven watered, tipping over or any of that other bullshit that comes from not adequately providing the medium w/ enough drench. The added insurance is quality advice and I hope anyone reading this, thinking of doing a similar setup will heed said advice as to not skimp on design in order to save a few dollars. I'm confident my girls will thank me for not skimping out on them too XD

That is exactly what I meant The idea is to keep the water level consistent in the upper res (5 gal. bucket in your case). This keeps the down pressure on the blumats consistent, which makes them work a lot more reliably.

Now, this is a section of the blumat design that is still under construction. Another method I'm thinking about is actually just going w/ the same 27 gal res (maybe a little smaller) elevated but equipped w/ one of those submersible wave pumps. The benefits, IMO, would be easier maintenance. I might have a little backwork, but I think taking a res out of the equation saves the headache of the DIY w/ all the extra hoses (probably the biggest issue that is still racking my brain) and multi tank/drain connectors. If what I've read so far holds true, that wave pump will provide enough circulation to keep the juice well mixed but I'm not sure if I'll lose the added benefits you get from waterfalling (topoff drain back into main res). But the thing I like the most is that I feel I will be able to get every last drop of juice where the double res combo will at some point have juice that I will have to manually drain out as I've had many a sub pump that just could not get that last inch from the bottom. I hate wasting juice, lol. I was also going to pick up the pressure reducer if going this route because I definitely hear ya on keeping the pressure to the sensors consistent. Also thinking about going w/ the flexzilla hose for easier routing but as I've mentioned, I still can't get my 1/2s from my 1/4s. Throw in those 3/32 Ts and I just can't keep up anymore. I want to get the regular kit, but I see way too many stories where people feel they need to upgrade to a bigger hose, like one I suggested, because of clogs and air bubbles. So, while I still hold KISS in high regards, I think optimal here is the ticket. I don't want to have all that extra hosing, only to find out down the road that I should have just gotten bigger hoses.

In the sense that you just bend them into a circle they are the same. Difference being hog fence is MUCH thicker/heavier duty wire, so it will free stand without any supports. It also has bigger holes that hands fit through , makes training much easier. Chicken wire is for putting on the ceiling, and trying off branches with string . Hog fence is what you want for making cages.

I guess I'm going w/ the hog fence. Find some that are about 6 foot in height, bend them around the ladies and be done w/ it.

Thanks again for all the top shelf advice MrD,

 

[Cokezzz]

Oh and Happy New Year to all! Catch you guys next year!