Defoliation: Hi-Yield Technique?

[Hydro-Soil]

You seem to have taken it upon yourself to be the voice of caution while at the same time giving examples of growers who have supposedly tried and debated it yet it seems those growers experienced no "danger".

You're forgetting that there's a huge difference between an accomplished grower "playing" with this technique... and a beginning grower (Those he advises it's 'dangerous') trying to get max production out of their 1st-10th crop. The two are NOT the same. I don't see him mentioning that newbs tried this and didn't have any problems.... I can see plenty for them.

Stay Safe!

 

[k33ftr33z]

You're forgetting that there's a huge difference between an accomplished grower "playing" with this technique... and a beginning grower (Those he advises it's 'dangerous') trying to get max production out of their 1st-10th crop. The two are NOT the same. I don't see him mentioning that newbs tried this and didn't have any problems.... I can see plenty for them.

Stay Safe!

Fair enough, though I have emphasized repeatedly to start slowly.

It seems the journeyman growers who have never tried are the most vocal against. The newbs are eager to learn. I am eager to help them gain confidence and a toolbox of skills. My threads are about more than deleafing. The common denominator is DIY, efficiency of labor and stingy application of electric power and material input.(sans wool,coco,rock,soil)

 

[k33ftr33z]

Flushing out

Flushing out

It is a necessary part of the process of vetting controversial knowledge to bring out the hardcore naysayers. Their input is still valuable. Their cautionary tone is perhaps a balance to my confidence in something with which I am most comfortable.

The pics speak for themselves and assure any doubters that in skilled hands this technique clearly has no negative ramifications, unless you don't desire to have a garden like that every cycle.

What's really amazing to me, though, is that in this forum where grow setups can sometimes be the epitome of overkill and Rube Goldberg like machinations, the nodding heads bob in agreement at the goofiest products, superstitions and elaborate workarounds yet something like this of real management technique stirs the flames of intolerance.

 

[pine boy]

Hey K33f,Have you done this technique with a few differant strains?
Really good work here.

 

[delta9nxs]

Maybe one reason this works is that overall plant mass is directly dependent upon root development. When you take away some of the mass you are threatening the plants genetic potential. The plant responds on a hormonal level with triggers to stimulate top growth in an effort to match the roots output capability. Since there are no fan leaves anymore the plant switches to the buds in an effort to regain mass.

Just a theory but stress is used purposefully all the time in the cultivation of other plants. There is “beneficial” stress.

All the arguments about how the plant grows “outside in nature” really don't apply here. We are not outside in nature. Those who say that they are growing naturally have already missed the point that the very act of growing “sin semillas” is an artificial ploy to increase bud potential. Artificial too is growing in containers, soilless media, continuous liquid feed of nutrients, hydro in general, pruning, topping, supercropping, and so on. Yet all of these techniques are regularly employed.

We who grow indoors, because of limited resources such as space and light, must use artifice to get what we want from the plant. To all of those who put down ideas that they themselves have not tried I would like to say that until you have done it you are not qualified to judge. Keep an open mind.

To those who engage in rude attacks, grow up! We are discussing growing a plant, not your mothers virtue. Agree or disagree to your hearts content but being intentionally rude is not justifiable. There is nothing to get emotional about. Except joy and happiness from growing this unique plant.

K33, I hope you don't mind that I abbreviate your handle, I understand your requirements call for a short compact plant so the stripping of leaves from early veg on works for you.

But I grow large plants and have a powerful vertical light arrangement. For me I don't believe trimming that early would be beneficial.

I like the idea of an unfettered veg to fully develop roots. Root and shoot growth are directly related.

From my own limited leaf picking experience (picking fan leaves the last week of flower) I have seen the smaller interior buds fatten up and get much more dense in a very short period of time. Also it triggers a secondary growth spurt of the bud leaves. The buds may have more trichs but that is hard to quantify.

Since this thread began I have now picked clean a plant with 10 days left and one with 14 days left. I'll be whacking those next week and the week after and will report back on them.

I will try one picked at onset of 12/12, then one picked at end of stretch around 21 days and again at 45 days as jrosek has done.

Still trying to find the exact point where photosynthesis rolls off during flower.

I see this thread as an opportunity for those interested to try some physical experiments to test the efficacy of this technique.

d9

 

[knna]

It is a necessary part of the process of vetting controversial knowledge to bring out the hardcore naysayers. Their input is still valuable. Their cautionary tone is perhaps a balance to my confidence in something with which I am most comfortable.

The pics speak for themselves and assure any doubters that in skilled hands this technique clearly has no negative ramifications, unless you don't desire to have a garden like that every cycle.

What's really amazing to me, though, is that in this forum where grow setups can sometimes be the epitome of overkill and Rube Goldberg like machinations, the nodding heads bob in agreement at the goofiest products, superstitions and elaborate workarounds yet something like this of real management technique stirs the flames of intolerance.

Very well and clearly said.

Each grower must decide his style of growing. He is responsible of his own garden results. A newbie should learn well the basic and apply them. Experienced growers should try any growing technique that they believe can improve their results.

Explaining a technique is not dangerous, its informative. And especially when its explained with the right warnings and mentions both pros and cons, as happened in this case.

I always thought that defoliating is a bad idea. This thread let me to think that it may have its place. Im not sold on it, but for sure I wont call it a dangerous technique. And I wont say it works worse than any other after at least having tried it and compared for myself.

Have common sense is good, but criticizing anything with just common sense and not experience is pointless and stupid. Plant are live, and life forms hide lots of surprises. I love each time plant's reaction surprise me, growing wont be as good if it would as building an inanimate thing, always the same. Different strains give different results with many growing techniques.

Dont have anything about plants as sure. Each day we can learn something that can improve our grow.

 

[VerdantGreen]

edit - found the info i needed - posted below

VG.

 

[Abja Roots]

Thanks for this tip. I would not do this on all my plants. I tried it on the GDP's that I had flowering. I'm not sure if it increased yield much, but there was a more uniform and deeper purpling all around. Nuggets that normally would have been under the canopy and stayed light green turned purple. I grew 6 plants on a 3 x 6 under 1kw on a light mover. So I had them bent out and tied down. Overall it worked pretty well. I would try it again unless I grew SOG, in which case it would not be necessary. Yield was just under a pound. I can't seem to do much on these 3 x 6's but sometimes you've got to work with the space you've got. I always pull more under the 4 x 4's

It's worth experimenting with, just like everything else.

 

[smokeymacpot]

i do this to mine, along with training, this method makes all those little sideshoots turn into massive buds, instead of being tiny popcorn shit. i will add that you should really leave some fan leaves at the bottom of the plant or tucked out of the way as they can tell you about plant health and are a food store.

 

[VerdantGreen]

aha found the info on the second look.

......
These 32" plants should yield 8-12 oz. Mine are averaging 10.This is done with a light allocation of 266 watts per plant. That's a little over 1gpw for the average. I know this can be pushed to 1.5 consistently with refined training and even better strains that are out there.

just for comparison, i use a modular scrog in a small space and i DONT remove leaves, or hardly any, even though my canopy gets very crowded. using a 250w HID, i get yields of between 1 and 1.6 grams per watt depending on strain, so whilst removing leaves is working well for you, i dont think your results are proving it's necessarily better than not removing them, not when i compare them to my results anyway.

cheers

VG

 

[k33ftr33z]

k33ftr33z - nice buds - sorry if you have mentioned it already but can i ask what light you have and what your yield is in grams/watt with this method of yours.

thanks,

VG.

No problem. Do check out my GroTunnel thread or Album. They are super easy to build and incorporate everything necessary to support the media-free garden: aeration, circulation, CO2, ClimeControl. The Tunnel is 5'x8' with about 40" of clearance from base to bulb. I keep the plants about 32" to allow full light dispersion above the tops. The tunnel has 3 lamps, 2x600 at the ends and 1x400 in the middle. The translates to 40w/sq ft. Yields are typically about 1.2gpw and rising gradually. The six plant layout(32" spacing) in this Tunnel is recent and exciting. The previous 12 plant layout
(24"centering) was still far too crowded. The 6x layout now equals and promises to surpass the 100-plant SOG yields of days past.

 

[VerdantGreen]

thanks mate, we cross posted, see my post above yours

p.s. i also use organic soil rather than hydro but i doubt many hydro growers think that it would put me at an advantage yield wise

 

[k33ftr33z]

aha found the info on the second look.



just for comparison, i use a modular scrog in a small space and i DONT remove leaves, or hardly any, even though my canopy gets very crowded. using a 250w HID, i get yields of between 1 and 1.6 grams per watt depending on strain, so whilst removing leaves is working well for you, i dont think your results are proving it's necessarily better than not removing them, not when i compare them to my results anyway.

cheers

VG

It's true that this has not necessarily introduced a groundbreaking increase in yield. It is more about what I mentioned in my previous post about consistency. Just as you report yields from 1-1.5gpw., that is a huge swing. Granted, it can be attributed to strain, but when faced with a naturally lower yielding strain that you just gotta have, this method MAY help level the playing field. Many people have reported higher yields but consistently? That's what this method does. I have allowed a full leaf-out in the exact same layout and same strains and I find that the yield is generally lower but dependent on variables that are more out of my control. This keeps things very consistent and in my control.

 

[sallyforthDeleted member 75382]

Great thread. Not growing presently. When I do grow again it's gonna be in a small area. Experienced in most tecniques so I will give this a try. Like to experiment anyway.

Thankyou.

 

[VerdantGreen]

It's true that this has not necessarily introduced a groundbreaking increase in yield. It is more about what I mentioned in my previous post about consistency. Just as you report yields from 1-1.5gpw., that is a huge swing. Granted, it can be attributed to strain, but when faced with a naturally lower yielding strain that you just gotta have, this method MAY help level the playing field. Many people have reported higher yields but consistently? That's what this method does. I have allowed a full leaf-out in the exact same layout and same strains and I find that the yield is generally lower but dependent on variables that are more out of my control. This keeps things very consistent and in my control.

as you say, there are many variables, but if everything goes well in the grow, most of my swing in yield is indeed down to the strain - most of the strains i grow would be considered low to medium yielders. the 1.6 gpw was for a Dr atomic NL which is more of a high yielder.
ill check out your grow thread - you should put a link in your signature . i have to say i fairly strongly believe in removing the minimum amount of leaf possible but you are clearly getting decent results with your method.

VG

 

[k33ftr33z]

Believe me I would prefer to not have to defoliate and I still revisit all methodology. It is definitely more work and done more for crowd control than yield enhancement, though crowd control translates to diminishment prevention. I have had summer heat+crowding =.5gpw and that is not acceptable.

I still have to refer to the newbies who will invariably at some time over-veg or for some reason face crowding issues. That aggressive plant that takes over your cabinet is THE one but it's aggression ego and selfishness needn't ruin the whole grow. Instead of removing a bunch of bud producing branches(lollipopping)which BTW is also removing considerable leaf mass, along with structural and growing ends that produce more heads....(whew...run-on)

defoliation is an option that preserves those branches and sites.

 

[one Q]

glad I wasnt around while the children were bickering.

@VG, this may be something for you to try... esp now that youre doing LEDs. May make a huge difference?

Lots of good theories and info... you crazy plant nerds keep it up Im learning sooo much. Love this shit.

Now lets talk about do this for the mother plants... this way the clones are already in mode... then clones get the treatment and keep rolling. Am I on the right track in this thinking?

But I do think that it is important to have some leaves on the clones as they root. More like once they root and are developing more roots then maybe cutting them off once potted up or transfered into system.

 

[k33ftr33z]

glad I wasnt around while the children were bickering.

@VG, this may be something for you to try... esp now that youre doing LEDs. May make a huge difference?

Lots of good theories and info... you crazy plant nerds keep it up Im learning sooo much. Love this shit.

Now lets talk about do this for the mother plants... this way the clones are already in mode... then clones get the treatment and keep rolling. Am I on the right track in this thinking?

But I do think that it is important to have some leaves on the clones as they root. More like once they root and are developing more roots then maybe cutting them off once potted up or transfered into system.

Mother plants are a great place to start to learn this technique. After taking clones it is only natural to remove excess leaf to allow a clean regrowth. I like my veg & mum setup to be clean and orderly.

I always remove all leaf except the growth cluster on clones. My sense is that it relieves the transpirational draw on the stem while there is no uptake capability for the 5-7 days prior to rooting.

 

[k33ftr33z]

Double Duty

Double Duty

Most of my clones perform dual duty providing a few clones on their way to flowering candidacy. The rare dedicated mother will also get her day in the 12 hour sun as I don't keep mothers long term, preferring to rather cycle them through as well-prepared branching budders.

 

[k33ftr33z]

Bottom Growth

Bottom Growth

Here is a good example of well developed bottom growth. The structure, texture, trichome development, and density resemble upper nugs. You can see rays of unimpeded light on some of the buds. Not a single budding site has ever been removed from these clones.