Call up the University of Arizona Library and ask for copies of his digitized articles like I did...
-
Happy Birthday ICMag! Been 20 years since Gypsy Nirvana created the forum! We are celebrating with a 4/20 Giveaway and by launching a new Patreon tier called "420club". You can read more here.
-
Important notice: ICMag's T.O.U. has been updated. Please review it here. For your convenience, it is also available in the main forum menu, under 'Quick Links"!
Danger of Al+++ Solubility Aluminum Silicate Clays (Azomite, Bentonite,...)
- Thread starter Cvh
- Start date
Call up the University of Arizona Library and ask for copies of his digitized articles like I did...
http://employees.oneonta.edu/viningwj/Chem111Labs/3_Alum_2008.pdf
This sort of explains the chemistry...
This sort of explains the chemistry...
That's a pdf that never loads for me. There is soluble aluminum and insoluble - the low pH root stunting kind is the soluble, mobile sort. Being exposed to aluminum in the soil and transporting it to the leaves are two different things however, 200 ppm is a lot, and why in the world would anyone apply zeolite to a field.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5643487
Trivalent aluminum (Al) is the most abundant form and has the greatest impact on plant growth at pH < 5. At pH > 5–6, the dominant species are AlOH2+ and Al(OH)2+, which are not as toxic to plants as Al. When the pH is neutral, Al(OH)3 or gibbsite occurs; however, it is non-toxic and relatively insoluble. Aluminate, Al(OH)4-, is the dominant specie when the pH is alkaline (pH > 7).
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5643487
Trivalent aluminum (Al) is the most abundant form and has the greatest impact on plant growth at pH < 5. At pH > 5–6, the dominant species are AlOH2+ and Al(OH)2+, which are not as toxic to plants as Al. When the pH is neutral, Al(OH)3 or gibbsite occurs; however, it is non-toxic and relatively insoluble. Aluminate, Al(OH)4-, is the dominant specie when the pH is alkaline (pH > 7).
Here is the important part.
Introduction The purpose of this experiment is to use aluminum from an aluminum can to synthesize a chemical compound, alum, which is hydrated potassium aluminum sulfate,KAl(SO4)2•12 H2O. Aluminum beverage cans generally have a thin coating of plastic on the inside that protects the aluminum from the corrosive action of the chemicals in the beverage. The outside usually has a thin coating of paint. These coatings must be removed before any chemical reactions with the metal can be carried out. The coatings may be effectively scraped off with a metal pan cleaner. A cleaned piece of metal is then dissolved in a potassium hydroxide solution according to the following complete, balanced equation: The full and net ionic equations are: 2 Al(s) + 2 KOH(aq) + 6 H2O(liq) Æ 2 KAl(OH)4(aq) + 3 H2(g) 2 Al(s) + 2 OH-(aq) + 6 H2O(liq) Æ 2 Al(OH)4-(aq) + 3 H2(g) The Al(OH)4- ion is a complex ion called “aluminate." After filtration to remove residual plastic and paint decomposition products, the alkaline solution of Al(OH)4- is clear and colorless. The H2 is evolved as a gas and mixes with the atmosphere. The chemical species in solution are potassium ions (K+) and aluminate ions [Al(OH)4-] ions (plus any unreacted KOH). Sulfuric acid is now added and two sequential reactions occur. Initially, before the addition of all the acid, insoluble aluminum hydroxide is formed, 2 KAl(OH)4(aq) + H2SO4(aq) → 2 Al(OH)3(s) + 2 H2O(liq) + K2SO4(aq) Al(OH)4-(aq) + H+(aq) → Al(OH)3(s) + H2O(liq) Al(OH)3 to give a thick, white, gelatinous precipitate of aluminum hydroxide. As more sulfuric acid is added, the precipitate of Al(OH)3 dissolves to form soluble Al3+ ions. The full and net ionic equations are: 2 Al(OH)3(s) + 3 H2SO4(aq) → Al2(SO4)3(aq) + 6 H2O(liq) Al(OH)3(s) + 3 H+(aq) → Al3+(aq) + 3 H2O(liq) to give aluminum ions, Al3+, in solution. The solution at this point contains Al3+ ions, K+ ions (from potassium hydroxide), and SO42- ions (from sulfuric acid). On cooling, crystals of hydrated potassium aluminum sulfate, KAl(SO4)2•12 H2O (or alum) are very slowly deposited. In the experiment the crystallization process is speeded up by providing a small “seed crystal" of alum for the newly forming crystals to grow on. Cooling is needed because alum crystals are soluble in water at room temperature.
Introduction The purpose of this experiment is to use aluminum from an aluminum can to synthesize a chemical compound, alum, which is hydrated potassium aluminum sulfate,KAl(SO4)2•12 H2O. Aluminum beverage cans generally have a thin coating of plastic on the inside that protects the aluminum from the corrosive action of the chemicals in the beverage. The outside usually has a thin coating of paint. These coatings must be removed before any chemical reactions with the metal can be carried out. The coatings may be effectively scraped off with a metal pan cleaner. A cleaned piece of metal is then dissolved in a potassium hydroxide solution according to the following complete, balanced equation: The full and net ionic equations are: 2 Al(s) + 2 KOH(aq) + 6 H2O(liq) Æ 2 KAl(OH)4(aq) + 3 H2(g) 2 Al(s) + 2 OH-(aq) + 6 H2O(liq) Æ 2 Al(OH)4-(aq) + 3 H2(g) The Al(OH)4- ion is a complex ion called “aluminate." After filtration to remove residual plastic and paint decomposition products, the alkaline solution of Al(OH)4- is clear and colorless. The H2 is evolved as a gas and mixes with the atmosphere. The chemical species in solution are potassium ions (K+) and aluminate ions [Al(OH)4-] ions (plus any unreacted KOH). Sulfuric acid is now added and two sequential reactions occur. Initially, before the addition of all the acid, insoluble aluminum hydroxide is formed, 2 KAl(OH)4(aq) + H2SO4(aq) → 2 Al(OH)3(s) + 2 H2O(liq) + K2SO4(aq) Al(OH)4-(aq) + H+(aq) → Al(OH)3(s) + H2O(liq) Al(OH)3 to give a thick, white, gelatinous precipitate of aluminum hydroxide. As more sulfuric acid is added, the precipitate of Al(OH)3 dissolves to form soluble Al3+ ions. The full and net ionic equations are: 2 Al(OH)3(s) + 3 H2SO4(aq) → Al2(SO4)3(aq) + 6 H2O(liq) Al(OH)3(s) + 3 H+(aq) → Al3+(aq) + 3 H2O(liq) to give aluminum ions, Al3+, in solution. The solution at this point contains Al3+ ions, K+ ions (from potassium hydroxide), and SO42- ions (from sulfuric acid). On cooling, crystals of hydrated potassium aluminum sulfate, KAl(SO4)2•12 H2O (or alum) are very slowly deposited. In the experiment the crystallization process is speeded up by providing a small “seed crystal" of alum for the newly forming crystals to grow on. Cooling is needed because alum crystals are soluble in water at room temperature.
A shorter way to say that - mix equal proportions of hot concentrated solutions of aluminum sulfate and potassium sulfate and cool. This alum is as toxic as aluminum sulfate, because in solution that's what it is. Neutralize it - it's quite acid - and aluminum hydroxide precipitates. It becomes immobile and insoluble and we're back to Cvh's graph on page 1. If high levels of Al haven't been found in Cannabis in dirt - wouldn't it be great to see rockwool tested - I don't see how more clay is going to make the level go up.
St. Phatty
Active member
If you're using natural soil components like Bentonite
And NOT using aluminum ore, AKA Bauxite
"Bauxite is a sedimentary rock with a relatively high aluminium content. It is the world's main source of aluminium. Bauxite consists mostly of the aluminium minerals gibbsite (Al(OH)3), boehmite (γ-AlO(OH)) and diaspore (α-AlO(OH)), mixed with the two iron oxides goethite (FeO(OH)) and haematite (Fe2O3), the aluminium clay mineral kaolinite (Al2Si2O5(OH)) and small amounts of anatase (TiO2) and ilmenite (FeTiO3 or FeO.TiO2).[1]"
Should be OK ?
And NOT using aluminum ore, AKA Bauxite
"Bauxite is a sedimentary rock with a relatively high aluminium content. It is the world's main source of aluminium. Bauxite consists mostly of the aluminium minerals gibbsite (Al(OH)3), boehmite (γ-AlO(OH)) and diaspore (α-AlO(OH)), mixed with the two iron oxides goethite (FeO(OH)) and haematite (Fe2O3), the aluminium clay mineral kaolinite (Al2Si2O5(OH)) and small amounts of anatase (TiO2) and ilmenite (FeTiO3 or FeO.TiO2).[1]"
Should be OK ?
Aluminum is the 3rd most common element after oxygen and silicon. It makes up about 8% of the earth's crust. It is literally in the water you drink and the food you eat. I'd be more concerned with using antacids. There is evidence of no toxicity if it is consumed in amounts not greater than 40 mg/day per kg of body mass. It is eliminated primarily by feces and whatever enters the bloodstream is eliminated by urine.
Don't worry about it. I was exposed to it in higher concentrations when I was welding it than anyone could ever consume by smoking weed.
Extracting aluminum from bauxite requires a shit load of energy. That's why aluminum smelting plants are usually located close to power plants.
You'd need to consume about 3000 mg of aluminum a day for a period of time to approach toxic levels.
I think we're all gonna be fine.
Don't worry about it. I was exposed to it in higher concentrations when I was welding it than anyone could ever consume by smoking weed.
Extracting aluminum from bauxite requires a shit load of energy. That's why aluminum smelting plants are usually located close to power plants.
You'd need to consume about 3000 mg of aluminum a day for a period of time to approach toxic levels.
I think we're all gonna be fine.
How about sending in leaf analysis and compare against other crops?
That usually helps clear the fog pretty quick.
Just be sure to wash the leaves well before sending in.
I suggest using the third fully adult leaf from the top down.
Logan can't do the analysis for Aluminum. Anyone know a decent lab that
will run Cannabis and can test for aluminum?
That usually helps clear the fog pretty quick.
Just be sure to wash the leaves well before sending in.
I suggest using the third fully adult leaf from the top down.
Logan can't do the analysis for Aluminum. Anyone know a decent lab that
will run Cannabis and can test for aluminum?
Obviously lots of shit can hit the proverbial fan long before it is toxic pal.
https://suppversity.blogspot.com/2014/04/aluminium-more-of-threat-than-thought.html
Here is what the Germans think. Some very good points.
I can tell you that a hair analysis lab in California saw a range of Al in the hair of folks in California at 2 to 5 ppm (may have been ppb) and in Costa Rica the lowest the same lab could find was 22 ppms and the highest in Costa Rica was in the 70's.
Personally I think the Manana attitude to a great extent is chemical.
The worst aluminum intoxicated in the population up until the late 60's was in the red clays of the east cost, Georgia etc... where economic development was some of the lowest in the US until interstate commerce of food really came of age. Not a lot of rocket scientists coming out of there...
The best work in the world on aluminum toxicity was done Dr. Kim Tan at the University of Georgia. He is a show stopper folks. Just sent him an email asking for a digital copy of a specific article for you all that shows how a little Al toxicity can screw up yields and quality.
As for Aluminum, here is a great article relating small quantities of Al in the water being the causal influence in Alzheimers in France I believe (the Europeans know the relationship of Alzh and Al. The US is still in denial)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2215380/
Some other goodies..
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/01904168009362807
Why use wonder materials with high Aluminum, azomite, zeolite, even certain clays... Given the issues neutralizing of Aluminum (which is actually not that hard using contrary metals and enough Calciums) why apply more? Don't take recommendations from someone selling stuff. Buyer beware.
If one needs micro nutrients, throwing everything at the soil makes no sense. Better with a rifle approach and use various LIQUID seaweeds to fill in the little itty bitty micros. We don't need stupid shit added to mixes....
Fitzera
Active member
I grew up right by a smelter, and a pulp mill! But look at me, I'm fine!
lolIt's pretty cool to watch the process actually. And the amount of electricity used in incredible. The magnetic field is very strong, anyone with a pacemaker cannot be near the production. Almost got a job there but I'm so glad I moved before i got sucked in.
Anyhow, yes let's get some testing done!
In general heavy metals are always a concern. However, unless you have the ability to lab test every input and inputs input, and ferment your own feed stock with raspberry leaf, beet sugar, potatoe skins and sunflower seeds... there will always be something there. Any mineral, soil or sediment (clay/silt/sand based on grain size) has the potential for heavy metal impacts. Look at EPA data for individual metal thresholds concentrations for soil (huge spreadsheet) telling you what u should not exceed at residential levels. https://www.epa.gov/risk/regional-screening-levels-rsls-generic-tables
Rico Swazi
Active member
from coot-
spot on Wet
years ago a 'less is more' mantra flowed thru this organic forum
good to see a few old schoolers still understand that concept
For me, its a matter of trust with anything purchased from a store
my concern has been not what they say what is in it, but what they don't tell you that may be a larger threat to our health
azomite for example could be adulterated with asbestos for silica content (not saying it is) but something similar could be the next big thing we will all be talking about
buyer beware, less is more, don't over apply and overgrow the planet in the process
Fitzera
Active member
Apparently gypsum can be used to leach aluminum from subsoil and prevent aluminum toxicity to plants. But this was based on aluminum toxicity to roots resulting is root pruning, not the build up of aluminum in the plant tissues. Basically, in an acidic soil where aluminum is bioavailable, the calcium displaces the aluminum to a sub soil level below the roots. Not exactly what were talking about but related and I feel is a good addition to this topic.
"How does calcium remediate pH problems associated with an acid subsoil?
Soils can be acid or alkaline. Acid soils occur where there has been a lot of rainfall over the centuries. Acid soils are highly weathered, and many minerals and bases have been leached. Alkaline soils develop in arid areas that lack rainfall. Alkaline soils can be managed but not corrected. Acid soils can be neutralized with lime.
Growers apply lime to neutralize or raise pH. They generally apply enough lime to raise pH to 6.2 to 6.5 for a period of 4 years and then reapply. Neutralizing pH only targets the top 6 to 8 inches of soil and does nothing for the subsoil that can still be acid. Acidity, particularly when below 5.5, reduces nutrient solubility while increasing solubility of aluminum and iron, which can be damaging for growing root tips. While gypsum can’t increase the pH of acid subsoils, in can reduce aluminum toxicity in these same soils.
If acid neutralization is the goal, then lime is the material of choice. However lime is not very soluble or mobile in the soil. Therefore, neutralizing acid subsoils requires incorporation and deep mixing in the subsoil. This is not something that most farmers can easily or cost-effectively accomplish. Gypsum is more soluble and mobile in a shorter time frame and will leach into the subsoil by irrigation or rainfall.
In acid subsoils, soluble aluminum is toxic to plant roots and causes root pruning. Calcium will displace aluminum, allowing it to be leached below the rooting depths as long as there is enough moisture to draw*it downwards. The more calcium that leaches through the subsoil, the more aluminum is leached. Lime can do the same in the topsoil but not the subsoil.
Gypsum is calcium sulfate, and lime is calcium carbonate. Both are soil amendments, and both provide calcium that*can be used to displace excess aluminum in acid subsoil. However, only gypsum is soluble enough to move quickly down into the subsoil, and you can see the benefits in a few months. Lime is less soluble and can take 18 months to move down and give the same benefit as gypsum."
"How does calcium remediate pH problems associated with an acid subsoil?
Soils can be acid or alkaline. Acid soils occur where there has been a lot of rainfall over the centuries. Acid soils are highly weathered, and many minerals and bases have been leached. Alkaline soils develop in arid areas that lack rainfall. Alkaline soils can be managed but not corrected. Acid soils can be neutralized with lime.
Growers apply lime to neutralize or raise pH. They generally apply enough lime to raise pH to 6.2 to 6.5 for a period of 4 years and then reapply. Neutralizing pH only targets the top 6 to 8 inches of soil and does nothing for the subsoil that can still be acid. Acidity, particularly when below 5.5, reduces nutrient solubility while increasing solubility of aluminum and iron, which can be damaging for growing root tips. While gypsum can’t increase the pH of acid subsoils, in can reduce aluminum toxicity in these same soils.
If acid neutralization is the goal, then lime is the material of choice. However lime is not very soluble or mobile in the soil. Therefore, neutralizing acid subsoils requires incorporation and deep mixing in the subsoil. This is not something that most farmers can easily or cost-effectively accomplish. Gypsum is more soluble and mobile in a shorter time frame and will leach into the subsoil by irrigation or rainfall.
In acid subsoils, soluble aluminum is toxic to plant roots and causes root pruning. Calcium will displace aluminum, allowing it to be leached below the rooting depths as long as there is enough moisture to draw*it downwards. The more calcium that leaches through the subsoil, the more aluminum is leached. Lime can do the same in the topsoil but not the subsoil.
Gypsum is calcium sulfate, and lime is calcium carbonate. Both are soil amendments, and both provide calcium that*can be used to displace excess aluminum in acid subsoil. However, only gypsum is soluble enough to move quickly down into the subsoil, and you can see the benefits in a few months. Lime is less soluble and can take 18 months to move down and give the same benefit as gypsum."
'Boogieman'
Well-known member
Thinking about it I have to really be careful what I give my highbush blueberries, they like a low ph to thrive.
Eleutherios
Member
When you are considering a chemical system, you have to realize that oversimplified models of chemical phenomena rarely capture the complexity of the real world behavior, that is actually observed. Bentonite clays specifically are the study of considerable ongoing research for their use in synthetic organic chemistry. This is due to their ability to catalyze many reactions better than more traditional approaches. To really understand the intricacies, perhaps slightly less of a background in surface chemistry is needed than to understand and engineer zeolites. At any rate, I only mean to say that the behavior of these materials in the context of soil chemistry is by no means straight forward.
Additionally, I am surprised that no one has mentioned the Thai study showing a huge benefit to farmers working with depleted soils. It is also used heavily by some composting advocates. At any rate, it seems that the heavy metals found in many marine materials, such as fish meal, fish emulsion, and fishbone meal, as well as kelp products, have a more obvious hazard associated with their uses.
It is worth pointing out that shiitake mushrooms have notoriously high levels of aluminum present, yet have not been associated with any appreciable exposure hazard.
Abstract of the Thai study:
http://www.iwmi.cgiar.org/Publicati...ing_soils_and_boosting_yields_in_Thailand.pdf
Additionally, I am surprised that no one has mentioned the Thai study showing a huge benefit to farmers working with depleted soils. It is also used heavily by some composting advocates. At any rate, it seems that the heavy metals found in many marine materials, such as fish meal, fish emulsion, and fishbone meal, as well as kelp products, have a more obvious hazard associated with their uses.
It is worth pointing out that shiitake mushrooms have notoriously high levels of aluminum present, yet have not been associated with any appreciable exposure hazard.
Abstract of the Thai study:
http://www.iwmi.cgiar.org/Publicati...ing_soils_and_boosting_yields_in_Thailand.pdf
Eleutherios
Member
Its been a while since I posted regularly (another account linked to an Excite email address & subsequently forgot the password) and I just vaped a big bowel. I don't see how to edit the above post. Maybe I'm not seeing it because you can't after the fact or maybe I'm just feeling that Bangi Haze a bit more than I was expecting. At any rate as an addition to the above post:
With bentonite the thing, that I would be more concerned with, is what alkali or alkaline earth metal cation typifies it. Calcium bentonite is what you want. One thing that it does is to help provide fertilizer loss due to leaching via irrigation. Another thing that it helps with is in sequestering ammonia produced by the breakdown of organic materials in the soil media, to eventually be turned into the nitrates, that feed the plant. It's ability to do this is touted as helping to fuel a faster rate of decay when composting.
With azomite, it is more the trace mineral content, which is pretty hard to beat. There used to be a general hydroponics product called "Rare Earth" I think. I got it on clearance. It was leonardite and volcanic ash. Anyways, it was supposed to be a trace element mineral source. It was rather astounding how much it promoted lignification of the stems. I suppose that you could convert nettles into an ash or a bio-char for a somewhat similar effect. The azomite imo is far superior to something like greensand though. If you search "azomite" on Google scholar, you will see it being tested on everything from fish and shrimp farming (feeding it to the animals) to fruits and vegetables with good results. I have had waaaay too mush screentime today, so only looked at a couple of the abstracts, but at a glance saw one study showing an improvement in quality and yield in wine grapes and another that documented increased biomass and nutritional content as well as enhanced drought resistance in tomatoes.
At the end of the day, clays are pretty ubiquitous in nature, as well as aluminosilicates. If there were issues with either, I think that it would have become apparent by now. In terms of azomite, what we are talking about is ancient volcanic ash. The trace minerals are largely why volcanic soil is so famously fertile. Both bentonite and azomite have more research behind them than many, many other home brew and hydro store miracle products on the market. Do your own research and make up your own mind, but both are worth looking into.
With bentonite the thing, that I would be more concerned with, is what alkali or alkaline earth metal cation typifies it. Calcium bentonite is what you want. One thing that it does is to help provide fertilizer loss due to leaching via irrigation. Another thing that it helps with is in sequestering ammonia produced by the breakdown of organic materials in the soil media, to eventually be turned into the nitrates, that feed the plant. It's ability to do this is touted as helping to fuel a faster rate of decay when composting.
With azomite, it is more the trace mineral content, which is pretty hard to beat. There used to be a general hydroponics product called "Rare Earth" I think. I got it on clearance. It was leonardite and volcanic ash. Anyways, it was supposed to be a trace element mineral source. It was rather astounding how much it promoted lignification of the stems. I suppose that you could convert nettles into an ash or a bio-char for a somewhat similar effect. The azomite imo is far superior to something like greensand though. If you search "azomite" on Google scholar, you will see it being tested on everything from fish and shrimp farming (feeding it to the animals) to fruits and vegetables with good results. I have had waaaay too mush screentime today, so only looked at a couple of the abstracts, but at a glance saw one study showing an improvement in quality and yield in wine grapes and another that documented increased biomass and nutritional content as well as enhanced drought resistance in tomatoes.
At the end of the day, clays are pretty ubiquitous in nature, as well as aluminosilicates. If there were issues with either, I think that it would have become apparent by now. In terms of azomite, what we are talking about is ancient volcanic ash. The trace minerals are largely why volcanic soil is so famously fertile. Both bentonite and azomite have more research behind them than many, many other home brew and hydro store miracle products on the market. Do your own research and make up your own mind, but both are worth looking into.
Many volcanic soils are not good to farm in. Costa Rica for one. Some of the most aluminum toxic soils on the planet. As for azomite, wish you luck. With Aluminum coming at 11% + Aluminum, yeah, let's add that.
