Damn Gnat Flies

[Jhhnn]

Of course you know you are kinda contradicting yourself. "Instar" refers to particular period during larval development and FGs have four. Most research on BTi is in agreement that BTi is more effective during the early stages of the larvae (1st and 2nd instar) than any other period of a FG life cycle.

Definition of Instar:

An insect larva that is between one moult (ecdysis) of its exoskeleton and another or between the final ecdysis and its emergence in the adult form. Instars are numbered and there are usually several during larval development.

So where's the beef? LOL, its all cool man. Gnatrol works, but it does have its limitations.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but you offered that BT is only effective on the first two larval stages while the literature states that it's merely more effective at those stages of development. In sufficient strength it's apparently effective against all stages of larvae.

That doesn't mean they can really be eradicated in organic soil mixes but rather controlled. Every new batch of soil runs the risk of introducing them. They seem to be unavoidable in fresh worm castings, for example. My soil mix ages outdoors in trash cans so native gnats go for it in warm weather.

I'm sure your methods of continuous control are better than my own which occur only when needed, particularly for professional growers. I'm not that- it's just one of my hobbies in retirement. If it were my livelihood then I'd be into it a lot deeper.

 

[KONY]

hmm i didnt realize mosquito reviews was a credible source for information. I believe you also missed the point where I said Microbe lift is the best BTi source because it is the most cost effective. That reason alone makes it much better than the other products. The fact is it liquid based is also a bonus. The bits and dunks are mostly filler.

 

[KONY]

LOL...actually, if you read my comparison, I concluded Gnatrol was the better deal when it came to ITU/$.

Let me share what I know about Bits. They are dried corncob bits that are sprayed with vegetable oil (carrier for BTi). BTi is the active ingredient in both Gnatrol and Bits, so what you learned about Gnatrol will apply to most all BTi products.

BTi is released as the bits breakdown (21 days is the upper limit)--so when Bits are incorporated as a soil amendment you will achieve a continuous release of BTi for about 3 weeks. When added to water the BTi will continuously release for about 21 days as well (hence this product is designed to be used in ponds and other standing water situations).

This is important because BTi is only effective on FGs for a few days of their 28 day life cycle. Specifically during their first two stages as a larva (total of 4 stages)--which is 1st and 2nd instar as opposed to the 3rd and 4th instar. Using the illustration below...that would be about the 4 to 6 o'clock position in this illustration.

View Image

BTi applied any other time has no effect on FGs.

Timing your application of BTi is super important with Gnatrol, because it does not have a "time release" feature--and remains active for less than 1 week (hence the instructions for repeated applications of Gnatrol to insure that you get them during the 1st and 2nd instar). Since most bacteria and FG eggs are on the soil surface (not deep inside the container), frequent top dressings of Bits will maintain the BTi population in your grow medium surface. Adding Bits to the water rez will also provide fresh BTi to your plants each time the water is used.

Rates of Bits I use--

5ml/gal for water rez
5ml mixed with grow medium for each 5 gallon-sized container
7.5ml top dressing every 2-3 weeks for each 5 gallon-sized container

Yellow cards on every container also helps identify unexpected infestations rather fast.

Hope this helps clear the muddy water a bit.

Bolded the part you have completely wrong, unless the bits are sitting soaking wet they ARE NOT going to keep realising beyond the day of watering. You combined 2 different things there, saying when adding to water they release for 3 weeks, then saying when adding to soil they do the same?? Sure the bits deeper down in the soil will continue working, but gnat larva dont live deep down in the soil.

Especially at the very top of the soil where the gnats reproduce. This area dries out too much for the bits and dunks to be very effective.

 

[Duk of Deth]

My suggestion after fighting the gnats for years. Is trying to obtain predatory Atheta (Dalotia) Coriaria or Rove Beetle. I had some opportunistically infest my garden via pecan mulch and it was an unintended benefit. They eat thrips, spider mites and fungus gnats and seem to breed very fast.

 

[DocTim420]

Kony, Kony, Kony....

First, you question the validity of Mosquito information when discussing BTi, then use Mosquito information (not the Gnat information) to suggest there is no 3 week effective window with Bits combating FGs. Please read the following sentence from Summit's EPA registration papers regarding FGs--

If fungus gnats reappear within 3 weeks, repeat treatment and water in.

Second, did you know your Microbelift BMC is one of the more expensive sources for BTi? You are sooo mistaken when you opined: "I said Microbe lift is the best BTi source because it is the most cost effective." LOL, it is the SECOND MOST expensive product I compared thus far.

Here is snapshot of my revised spreadsheet. For convenience, I calculated $/million ITU of BTi. With Bits I pay just under 7 cents per Million ITU ($0.066072606) and with Micrcobelift BMC you pay over 4x more at 25 cents per Million ITU ($0.275179221).

But so far--Gnatrol is the winner, around a nickel per Million ITU.

Sorry dude! Next time please do your homework.

 

[DocTim420]

BTW...shortcut verification of liquid Microbelift BMC (which corresponds to the last entry in the above spreadsheet)

Label states: 1.2 billion ITU/liter and percent of active ingredient (BTi) is 8%

So here's the math--
1.2 billion X 8% X 3.78541 (# liters in a gallon) = 363.4 million ITU in 1 gallon.
1 gallon for $100 = $0.2715179221 ($/million ITU).

 

[KONY]

BTW...shortcut verification of liquid Microbelift BMC (which corresponds to the last entry in the above spreadsheet)

Label states: 1.2 billion ITU/liter and percent of active ingredient (BTi) is 8%

So here's the math--
1.2 billion X 8% X 3.78541 (# liters in a gallon) = 363.4 million ITU in 1 gallon.
1 gallon for $100 = $0.2715179221 ($/million ITU).

Sorry bud. Somewhere your math is wrong. I see it now, you have the whole thing wrong. The % of active ingredient doesnt/cant get multiplied by the ICU, that is the % of active ingredient compared to the total volume of product. So for example, for 6oz of microbelift product @ 8% is .48oz of actual BTI.


The application rate for microbe lift is

.25ml per 100 gallons of water, I will say it again; .25ml per 100 gallons (think about how potent that is for a minute)

for gnatrol granular
3.2-6.4oz per 100 gallons of water for light infestation, and
13 -26 oz per 100 gallons of water for heavy

Total cost to treat 100 gallons with microbelift, based on buying 1 gallon @ $95.00 is $.006, not even a penny!!

Total cost to treat 100 gallons for gnatrol granular, based on buying 500 grams @ $45 is $8.10-16.20 for light infestation and
$32-64 for a heavy infestation.

I realize these numbers are not exact comparisons, because gnatrol list a light and heavy infestation numbers, also because gnatrol doesnt offers a good price break at ~$100 amount like microbelift does, No matter what way you slice it, Microbelift is way more potent. Unless you don't trust the manufactures application rate.... and instead use your own special math.

Do you work for a hydro store perhaps? Another thing to consider is that Microbelift is sold to be used in 1000+ gallon ponds, gnatrol is sold to be used in cannabis gardens. I have never seen any single product sold specifically for cannabis that was a great value. However the opposite can be said for large scale home ponds.

Regardless, you missed the most important point I was trying to make regarding DRY BTi products. They have to sit in water for 24+ hours to work well... think about it, the spores/microbes have to hydrate before they can become active. They are designed to be used in bodies of standing water. This is the most important thing for the average person to know. Even if you dont have a rez, filling a 5 gallon bucket with water and soaking your DRY BTi product for atleast a day before watering it in, would do much more for the gnat larva that sprinkling dry bits on top or in the top few inches of soil. If these bits half way dry out, they are not releasing any bti into the nearby area.

This combined with sticky traps on every plant soil surface will remove your gnat problem entirely. If you want to keep it away you have to stop overwatering.

TL;DR: While Dry products like mosquito bits and dunks can work well, they only work well if they are left in water all the time, on the other hand liquid Bti is preferred and Microbe lift BMC is the best value for a BTI product, especially if you buy the gallon. Even the 6oz is a great value compared to products sold specifically for cannabis at hydro stores.

 

[Jhhnn]

Sorry bud. Somewhere your math is wrong. I see it now, you have the whole thing wrong. The % of active ingredient doesnt/cant get multiplied by the ICU, that is the % of active ingredient compared to the total volume of product. So for example, for 6oz of microbelift product @ 8% is .48oz of actual BTI.


The application rate for microbe lift is

.25ml per 100 gallons of water, I will say it again; .25ml per 100 gallons (think about how potent that is for a minute)

for gnatrol granular
3.2-6.4oz per 100 gallons of water for light infestation, and
13 -26 oz per 100 gallons of water for heavy

Total cost to treat 100 gallons with microbelift, based on buying 1 gallon @ $95.00 is $.006, not even a penny!!

Total cost to treat 100 gallons for gnatrol granular, based on buying 500 grams @ $45 is $8.10-16.20 for light infestation and
$32-64 for a heavy infestation.

I realize these numbers are not exact comparisons, because gnatrol list a light and heavy infestation numbers, also because gnatrol doesnt offers a good price break at ~$100 amount like microbelift does, No matter what way you slice it, Microbelift is way more potent. Unless you don't trust the manufactures application rate.... and instead use your own special math.

Do you work for a hydro store perhaps? Another thing to consider is that Microbelift is sold to be used in 1000+ gallon ponds, gnatrol is sold to be used in cannabis gardens. I have never seen any single product sold specifically for cannabis that was a great value. However the opposite can be said for large scale home ponds.

Regardless, you missed the most important point I was trying to make regarding DRY BTi products. They have to sit in water for 24+ hours to work well... think about it, the spores/microbes have to hydrate before they can become active. They are designed to be used in bodies of standing water. This is the most important thing for the average person to know. Even if you dont have a rez, filling a 5 gallon bucket with water and soaking your DRY BTi product for atleast a day before watering it in, would do much more for the gnat larva that sprinkling dry bits on top or in the top few inches of soil. If these bits half way dry out, they are not releasing any bti into the nearby area.

This combined with sticky traps on every plant soil surface will remove your gnat problem entirely. If you want to keep it away you have to stop overwatering.

Gnatrol is sold to control gnats in greenhouses. That's what it's for-

https://www.valent.com/professional/products/gnatrol/

 

[KONY]

Gnatrol is sold to control gnats in greenhouses. That's what it's for-

https://www.valent.com/professional/products/gnatrol/

okay but that was the least important thing of everything i said.

 

[RRResin]

(5 pages on how to combat fungus gnats and no one suggested the cheapest and best method - moving air)

Use a fan on 24/7 to blow air across the soil and you will not see any gnats again....it's that simple.
Gnats will also lay in the drainage holes of pots, so make sure the breeze is strong enough to move air around the top and bottom of pots.

Keep the grow area and the rest of the house or surrounds free of compost. Also make sure that all fruit peels are sealed and disposed of....if you are growing in a wardrobe in the bedroom and there are decaying fruit or veggie peelings sitting in an open trash can in the kitchen, chances are your grow with get aa FG infestation.

 

[RRResin]

Huh? where's the edit button? I guess I have to post X number of posts before this feature is available to me. I've been a member here on icmag.com since it began but have changed my user name 4 or so times since and have always used the edit feature.

 

[DocTim420]

Sorry bud. Somewhere your math is wrong. I see it now, you have the whole thing wrong. The % of active ingredient doesnt/cant get multiplied by the ICU, that is the % of active ingredient compared to the total volume of product. So for example, for 6oz of microbelift product @ 8% is .48oz of actual BTI. ...

Nope--here is how it works. Let's examine the label--particularly, the Active Ingredient area

Notice there are 2 asterisks? First one follows the description of Active Ingredient--

Bacillus thuringiensis subspecies israelensis, solids, spores and insecticidal toxins*..................8.00%


And the second asterisk precedes the ITU information--

*Equivalent to 1,200 International Toxic Units (ITU/mg) (4.84 Billion ITU/gallon or 1.2 Billion ITU/liter).


Those statements go together--BTi for this product is sourced from a concentration that is 1,200 ITU/mg. Take note that some products source their BTi from a concentration that is stronger (7000 ITU/mg--like Bits & Dunks), Gnatrol uses a weaker concentration (3000 ITU/mg) and a Vectobac product uses the weakest (200 ITU/mg). Not all ITU concentrations are the same...as you can see. But, no product has 100% of the active ingredient--yours happens to have 8%.

1. To determine amount of active ingredient inside the container, you would use this formula:

(Active ingredient concentration) X (Active ingredient %) X (container size)

(1.2 billion ITU) x (8% active ingredient rate) = 96 million ITU per liter

How many liters in a gallon? 3.78541 (right?).

(96 million ITU) X (3.78541) = 363.4 million ITU per gallon.

That's it....1 gallon equates to 363 million ITU--which you paid about $100 for.

2. To determine cost per ITU, you divide $100 (price for 1 gallon) by 363.4 million = $0.2715179221 per million BTi/ITU.

Reality check--you have two products one is diluted 50% and the other is 100% of a different concentration of the same active ingredient. Both cost $100 per gallon...which is the better deal?

Product A: 50% of 1000 ITU/quart.

Product B: 100% of 10 ITU/quart.

How many ITUs are in each? Which is a better deal?

Formula: (Active ingredient concentration) X (Active ingredient %) X (container size)

A: (1000 ITU/quart) X (50%) X (4 quarts in a gallon) = 2000 ITU
B: (10 ITU/quart) X (100%) X (4 quarts) = 40 ITU

Cost per ITU...

A: (2000) / ($100) = $0.05 per ITU
B: (40) / ($100) = $2.50 per ITU

It's that simple--your Micorbelift is not a bargain.

BTW, if you don't believe me, call Microbelift and ask them how many actual BTi/ITUs (not ICUs....lol) are in a liter of Mircrobelift BMC. They will tell you 96 million. I guarantee it!

 

[KONY]

You post all this stuff, but ignore those most important part... the products documented application rates.

Basically how much water can you treat with one bottle of the product, or to word it better, how much does it cost to treat 100 gallons of water?
You dont even need to bring the ITU into the equation at all. It makes the problem more complicated than need be, unless you don't trust the manufactures application rate.

If I have to treat 100 gallons of water with Gnatrol, it's going to cost me $8-64 depending on which dosage I use.
If I use microbe lift BMC, it will cost me not even a penny.

How is your product a better deal? Are you saying Gnatrols application rates are completely off and one doesn't need to use nearly as much as they claim for it work effectively?? I dont really understand (your logic).

 

[DocTim420]

You post all this stuff, but ignore those most important part... the products documented application rates.

Basically how much water can you treat with one bottle of the product. You dont even need to bring the ITU into the equation at all. It does no good unless you don't trust the manufactures application rate.

If I have to treat 100 gallons of water with Gnatrol, it's going to cost me $8-64 depending on which dosage I use.
If I use microbe lift BMC, it will cost me not even a penny.

How is your product a better deal?

LOL, I don't care about their application rates (that is not what I am buying...I am buying BTi), rather I seek to buy the most affordable source of BTi (why overpay?).

BTi is formulated using various concentrations that are measured as International Toxic Units

Just like we measure weed by pounds--but we don't measure THC by pounds--but we know a pound of pot that measures 28% THC is more potent than say 9% and should be worth more too. How do you include the percentage of "concentration" into your analysis?

But if we apply your logic, then a pound is a pound, and the concentration of THC does not count (concentration of active ingredient). Whereas 100 grams of weed measuring 28% THC contains 28 grams of THC....and the 100 grams of weed measuring 9% THC only contains 9 grams of THC. This we know...now apply this logic to 1200 ITU/mg and 3000 ITU/mg BTi.

The greater the ITU count--the greater amount of BTi spores available. The greater the THC%--the greater amount of....SAME-SAME.

Methinks math was not your favorite subject...please call Microbelift and they will confirm exactly what I have written.

 

[KONY]

So do you make up your own application rates for all pesticides? Or just BTi?
Your stoner math is hilarious. The fact you put so much effort into being wrong is amazing.

My only conclusion at this point is you work in the industry and financially benefit from people buying overpriced products like gnatrol that cost $8-64 to treat 100 gallons, when there are comparable products that cost pennies.

 

[DocTim420]

So do you make up your own application rates for all pesticides? Or just BTi?
Your stoner math is hilarious. The fact you put so much effort into being wrong is amazing.

My only conclusion at this point is you work in the industry and financially benefit from people buying overpriced products like gnatrol that cost $8-64 to treat 100 gallons, when there are comparable products that cost pennies.

My application rates are usually based on research of effectiveness. The strain of BTi in Bits is IDENTICAL to that used Microbelift BMC, which means Fungus Gnat research using "Bacillus thuringiensis subspecies israelensis" should be correlated with all products using that BT strain. Said differently, a FG that is being killed by BTi does not know the difference if the BTi came from Bits, Dunks or Microbelift. BTi is BTi (period).

Example, these 2 search terms yield different results--
https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=%22Bacillus+thuringiensis%22+%22israelensis%22+%22fungus+gnat%22&

162 results

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=Microbelift+BMC&

1 result

Using manufacturers instructions to calculate "cost per treatment"--does zero to compare nearly identical products containing the the same if not identical "active ingredient". As everyone know, manufacturer's instructions are normally on the heavy side (so you can use/buy more). Hence I view them as "guidelines".

I was stubborn once...then I realized the truth is more important than having a false "feeling" of being correct.

If you seek the truth, then email Microbelift and ask them "exactly how many BTi ITUs are there in 1 liter of liquid BMC" (their answer will NOT be 1.2 billion--that I promise).

Why don't I do it? Two reasons.

First, you are the one saying I am wrong (so the burden is on you to disprove my allegations--as well as to establish that your allegations are correct)--not for me to prove you are wrong (hard to prove a negative).

Second, I already did. A few years ago I called Summit and spoke their scientist that set me right. I too thought the amount BTi ITU stated on the label (ie 3000 ITU/mg) equaled the amount inside--unfortunately the 3000 ITU/mg is the concentrated rate of the Active Ingredient that is incorporated into the product at the stated percentage on the label.

Me...I would relish the opportunity to prove some wiseass (like me) wrong! But you gotta use irrefutable proof--not some illogical arguments that doesn't answer the question, "what product has the most amount of BTi at the lowest price".

The only person using stoner logic...is you. And, those who are/were fellow bean counters that work and understand cost analysis--are getting a good chuckle at your words/logic. I am sure they appreciate the humor.

 

[DocTim420]

So Kony, a fellow bean counter (yes, one of my college degrees is in accounting) and he told me I was stupid...lol. And he's right.

He said, "Ask him what is the meaning of 'Active Ingredient, 8%' and what is the formula to calculate the amount in his bottle".

So...with that, please provide us with your version of the formula (since you say mine is obviously thwarted with stoner math).

Please provide us with the formula to calculate the total quantity of an "active ingredient" in 1 gallon bottle of Microbelift BMC. All the information is on the label.

Example--if I buy 100 grams of pot that test 25% THC...then I know am getting 25 grams of THC. How much BTi is in 1 gallon of BMC?

 

[Jhhnn]

(5 pages on how to combat fungus gnats and no one suggested the cheapest and best method - moving air)

Use a fan on 24/7 to blow air across the soil and you will not see any gnats again....it's that simple.
Gnats will also lay in the drainage holes of pots, so make sure the breeze is strong enough to move air around the top and bottom of pots.

Keep the grow area and the rest of the house or surrounds free of compost. Also make sure that all fruit peels are sealed and disposed of....if you are growing in a wardrobe in the bedroom and there are decaying fruit or veggie peelings sitting in an open trash can in the kitchen, chances are your grow with get aa FG infestation.

No compost in the nearby environs? You must be kidding, right?

That's the new one I just put together yesterday. I had one just like it for at least 10 years until the drum rusted out. Putting it together was just as big a pita as I remembered it. And so worth it.

 

[RRResin]

No compost in the nearby environs? You must be kidding, right?

What I meant was that if you have a open compost pile next to a greenhouse then chances are you will get fungus gnats if the conditions are suitable for them. Is that a sealed compost unit? If so then fungus gnats won't be a problem I'd imagine.
If you grow indoors in a cupboard, wardrobe, a room or the whole house and there's an open trash can in the house that has lots of fruit peels then chances are that you will get fungus gnats laying in the soil of your pot plants....unless you use one of the many chemicals suggested in the this thread or simply use horizontal air movement around the pots.

 

[Viral505]

I used Mosquito Bits in my soil a week ago and I've seen major improvements, specifically with fungus gnats. I just topped my soil with it and watered as usual, it stunk to high heavens, but the larvae feed on the BTI and it kills all the mosquito and gnat larvae that feed on the roots, also preventing them from turning into adults.

Quote from EPA.gov -

"Bti is a biological or a naturally occurring bacterium found in soils. (Bti is short for Bacillus thuringiensis subspecies israelensis.) It contains spores that produce toxins that specifically target and only affect the larvae of the mosquito, blackfly and fungus gnat. EPA has registered five different strains of Bti found in 48 pesticide products that are approved for use in residential, commercial and agricultural settings primarily for control of mosquito larvae."