Concepts of mineral nutrient solution. Why do we fertilize plants?

[HolyGrailP]

Hi fellas,

I would love to talk about systemical approach on mineral nutrient solution.

Though I’ll only regard about mineral fertilizing rather than organic fertilizing. Organic fertilization will have some what different approach with microorganisms involvement.

I see a lot of adjusting in nutrient solution ratio, this and that, many different interesting approaches.

But I think it is nice to point out why is nutrient needed for plants?

Simply plants require nutrients for their grow. Then what’s the main factor that decides nutritional requirements?
Clearly, genetic and environment. Very straight forwarded. Nutrient just follow after what genetic you choose and what kind of environment is given to the plants.

We often look over nutrients but fellas let’s not over complicated. Nutrients is just something like vitamin to plants, not like carb/protein/fat to human.
What does that mean?
That just mean we have to fertilize as much as plants need depends on “Genetic and Climate”, nothing crazy.

I see some fellas trying to steer crop by changing nutrient solution such as increasing specific elements.
Let’s get it clear about crop steering (controlling plant status, vegetative and generative).
Crop steering is more effective in such order
1. Genetic
2. Climate control
3. Hormone
4. Nutrient

This mean that anyone who’s spending a lot of time in nutrients to steer crop is basically chosen the most ineffective way to control plants. So it can be more efficient to prepare nutrient solution in the extent that won’t starve plants, nothing crazy. And focus on other factors that are more effective steering!

Lastly, fellas
Really want to mention
We really under-estimate drain analysis.
Though without it, your irrigation strategy is like putting Royal Queen Seeds shit in the high tech facility.
Your effort on making great solution won’t work as much as it can be beneficial.

One lucky thing is that Cannabis is such a short cycle crop that drain analysis (in terms of quantifying each element) is not needed. It is simply hard to fuck up in short time (2-3months) once you have safe solution recipe but you should track on EC, pH, and drain amount regularly for correct usage of your nutrient solution.

Hope this was enjoyable reading and helpful to some growers who have been curious about the concept of nutrient solution.

 

[marwachine]

How do you steer a crop when growing outdoors?

 

[Ca++]

By what means can you steer a crop genetically?

 

[HolyGrailP]

How do you steer a crop when growing outdoors?

Damn outdoors tricky
Cuz climate control is not possible
Also, I’m familiar with greenhouse and fully closed chamber but def not outdoor.

So I cannot fully direct things for outdoor but can give an idea

Outdoors have to deal with watering to steer crop then
Basically, increasing rootzone EC or decreasing watering frequency and drain will hinder water uptake

However for outdoor, have to check weather forecast that one can have an idea about precipitation.
And most importantly should have a soil analysis.

Eurofin is the most famous one where you can get soil analysis or water analysis.

 

[HolyGrailP]

By what means can you steer a crop genetically?

Ahh you made a good point

I worded weirdly maybe
But what I meant was genetic will be the biggest limiting factor so your steering ability/efficiency and even possibility is depended on the genetic.
Especially, when you have to choose what crop to grow as well.

So yea, actually for us we are already fixed with growing ganja def climate control is the biggest steering factor.

 

[marwachine]

Ahh you made a good point

I worded weirdly maybe
But what I meant was genetic will be the biggest limiting factor so your steering ability/efficiency and even possibility is depended on the genetic.
Especially, when you have to choose what crop to grow as well.

So yea, actually for us we are already fixed with growing ganja def climate control is the biggest steering factor.

what would be your baseline requirements for making a climate controlled greenhouse? let's say you're tight on budget.

 

[HolyGrailP]

what would be your baseline requirements for making a climate controlled greenhouse? let's say you're tight on budget.

In case of tight budget, I’ll straight exclude glasshouses and air treatment unit away. Also, depends on the region I’ll prefer to even get rid of heating if budget’s too tight.

First of all, I would for sure spend some money on frame to make it higher. Most of are short in height.
For me, those short poly-tunnel, I don’t consider that a greenhouse. Because, when there is not enough upward space then I have no atmospheric buffer which means I can’t control the climate in budget or I have to actively control the climate 24/7 (such as air treatment unit). Make your frame height at least 6 meters.

Also, if I roll up the whole side of plastic house to vent that’s like literally 0 climate control.
So I would pay to greenhouse constructor to build this vent on the ceiling like typical Venlo type Glass house does.

Next for me, water balance is the most important when it comes to plant physiology. I would pay a climate control company for their irrigation system.

I’ll for sure have a dark screen as well to give enough night length. For Cannabis, as we all know photoperiod is the biggest steering factor unless it’s auto plants.

Now, I have all basics done now but dealing with assimilation balance can be tricky as there is no artificial light or heating pipes.
For this, I’ll need a specification of the region’s 24hr temperature and daily light integral.

It is optional, would prefer to have a climate computer.
I mean it’s pain in the ass to do things manually. I have to dedicate the whole day doing labours. Which also mean I won’t have time to educate myself and improve it.
If I have the climate computer, I just have to work ass off on crop registration.
Way better that way.

This will be my base line for commercial greenhouses with low budget.
In commerical greenhouses, anything below $500 per sqmt is cheap and high tech glasshouse goes around $1000 per sqmt

 

[HolyGrailP]

I would pay a climate control company for their irrigation system.

Forgot to mention. For now, I def prefer drip irrigation.
Also, the reason I would use climate control companies’ irrigation system is that their logic behind of watering strategy. It went through long ass research to make it precise.
Those system considers drain and etc.

Would prefer to have a climate computer.

I believe cultivation is all about measuring and controlling.
Climate computer makes it accurate as you can see what you are doing on graphs and stuffs also sophisticated control on vent then doing manually but not cheap. I would say optional but extremely preferred for commerical facilities.
If it is hobby ofc ignore that.

 

[HolyGrailP]

what would be your baseline requirements for making a climate controlled greenhouse? let's say you're tight on budget.

As this section was originally about nutrients concept.

I would love to add about it.
Will just buy chemical substances and make own nutrient solution.
Easy, simple, and accurate.

Cannabis fertilizer companies….I must say what they are doing often hella weird, especially when you run their an analysis of nutrient element ratio they use.
It just rips you off and give you a lower quality.

Haven’t seen a single high level facilities using pre-made products.
They either make own or pay to chemical factories to mix the substances according to the recipe they give it to the factory.

Nutrient is a very simple stuff.

 

[Happs]

I think before everything was analysed and tinkered with ie.gm.
gardeners would use organic homemade compost and other such tips and tricks to feed their plants.
we have almost gone full circle, meaning that we have gone back to basics as organic growing is becoming bigger and bigger.
From just buying weed killer 40 years ago and a few vegetable seeds there is a multitude of different products that they say will enhance your grow experiences in many ways.
Look at our plants , the ganja business has exploded since 2000.
My mates used to order canna through the post from holland in the 90’s.
Now there are grow shops all over the uk and Spain.
so many feeds,nutrients and boosters available now.
And let’s be honest we know all the feeds in bottles are mainly water.
But they work lol.
On the other hand all them fields on the sides of mountains that grow some landrace that’s been in that region for years is not tended to by anyone just growing wild..

 

[HolyGrailP]

I think before everything was analysed and tinkered with ie.gm.
gardeners would use organic homemade compost and other such tips and tricks to feed their plants.
we have almost gone full circle, meaning that we have gone back to basics as organic growing is becoming bigger and bigger.
From just buying weed killer 40 years ago and a few vegetable seeds there is a multitude of different products that they say will enhance your grow experiences in many ways.
Look at our plants , the ganja business has exploded since 2000.
My mates used to order canna through the post from holland in the 90’s.
Now there are grow shops all over the uk and Spain.
so many feeds,nutrients and boosters available now.
And let’s be honest we know all the feeds in bottles are mainly water.
But they work lol.
On the other hand all them fields on the sides of mountains that grow some landrace that’s been in that region for years is not tended to by anyone just growing wild..

Organic is really interesting in a good way

I don’t like the fact that I cannot control to my taste but at the same time, it doesn’t require much control and precision as there are a lot of buffers such as acid or symbiosis with microbium in organic.

Besides that I really love the quality of weed grown in living soil yet very skeptical if the quality is great due to low water input or actually something makes better.
By far, I believe organic quality is greater often due to lower density or volume compare to plant compound (terpenes or cannabinoid) it throws out by genetic potential. Meaning shit grow often taste good as long as it didn’t struggle with pest or disease. Shit grow caused by full of abiotic stress really taste good hilariously

Literally everyone can grow tasty crop
Often grower without any clue pull out great tasting weed as they fck up watering and the flower volume was way smaller than the plant compound it has. Problem is their consistency will be below bare minium.

So when I actually think of good grow, it has to do with lower input to achieve same output or better than others.

Well, I guess it’s a really fun challenge haha

 

[marwachine]

Besides that I really love the quality of weed grown in living soil yet very skeptical if the quality is great due to low water input or actually something makes better.
By far, I believe organic quality is greater often due to lower density or volume compare to plant compound (terpenes or cannabinoid) it throws out by genetic potential. Meaning shit grow often taste good as long as it didn’t struggle with pest or disease. Shit grow caused by full of abiotic stress really taste good hilariously

Literally everyone can grow tasty crop
Often grower without any clue pull out great tasting weed as they fck up watering and the flower volume was way smaller than the plant compound it has. Problem is their consistency will be below bare minium.

Do you mean organic often tastes better because it yields less? Terpenes being more compacted in less plant material?

So when I actually think of good grow, it has to do with lower input to achieve same output or better than others.

Meaning efficiency?

Well, I guess it’s a really fun challenge haha

If you were to grow organically, how would you approach it?

 

[HolyGrailP]

Do you mean organic often tastes better because it yields less? Terpenes being more compacted in less plant material?

Exactly but it is rather my logical assumption than something I have proven.

But quite similar concepts are used for tomato or strawberry or what so ever.
Moreover, Carl Linnaeus, one of the most sought after biologists in the field, was aware of the concept in 18C.

Just can’t say it’s above fully causes by water or organic acid will actually do some magic on flavor quality.

Meaning efficiency?

Clearly. I don’t know what else can be different in high level grower as their quality are good in similar level. Of course differs but the point is when I blind taste, it is extremely hard to tell the differences. No significant.

If you were to grow organically, how would you approach it?

Honestly, i would love to do aquaponics or no-till regenerative with bokashi through dripper.
Though aquaponic won’t be closes circular system, just not possible. Regenerative can be fine without input but I’ll add such bokashi for guaranteed control.
What so ever, need regular water analysis for aquaponics and soil analysis for regenerative.

I like organic a lot but for few reason I don’t over look now.
1. I do not have strategy for organic as it is really complicated matter and I only want high precision cultivation in commercial level.

2. Where I born, we don’t have good land nor big land but good level of education and technology.
It’s natural to me to focus on precision agriculture as sourcing fertile land are not really possible in my country.

I mean whoever has the great fertile land in certain extend of scale, they can really lay back.
If they have good weather, they can chill even more.

 

[Ca++]

Forgot to mention. For now, I def prefer drip irrigation.
Also, the reason I would use climate control companies’ irrigation system is that their logic behind of watering strategy. It went through long ass research to make it precise.
Those system considers drain and etc.


I believe cultivation is all about measuring and controlling.
Climate computer makes it accurate as you can see what you are doing on graphs and stuffs also sophisticated control on vent then doing manually but not cheap. I would say optional but extremely preferred for commerical facilities.
If it is hobby ofc ignore that.

The gap between commercial and hobby equipment, is often greater than the ocean. Yet has the same goals.
One example, is the ACinfinity fan controller, that for 100 sheets, will watch and record temp&RH, while changing the fan speed within user defined limits. The latest are tracking vpd, and hooking up to humidifiers and perhaps heaters before long. They will control the lights, circulation fans, it's quite a list of stuff for 100 sheets. However, it's plug&play with just their other items. If you want temp&RH to adjust fan speed in a commercial situation, without anything else, it's going to cost at least 5 times that. Though in reality that ACinfinity controller is just PWM based, and can have the wires peeled out to control any EC fan you like. The crossover of products isn't there though.
I was recently looking at EC/pH meters that are constantly in the tank. It seemed 250 sheet was typical. Yet, you can get one for 50 sheets that datalogs to your phone via the internet. For just 20 more, it can run dosing pumps. It's aimed at fish people, but commercially it would again cost 10x more.
What they can make us, and what they do make us, are very different.


When you spoke of irrigation control by the climate control people, are you talking about feed adjustments based on weather ?
I really can't do that as a hobby guy, but have been collecting parts to stop the drip cycle once a runoff volume has been detected. I can't see a way to modify my EC for water use though. That's some serious computing, that a hobby grower isn't expect to of thought about. We do though.. some of us.

 

[HolyGrailP]

The gap between commercial and hobby equipment, is often greater than the ocean. Yet has the same goals.
One example, is the ACinfinity fan controller, that for 100 sheets, will watch and record temp&RH, while changing the fan speed within user defined limits. The latest are tracking vpd, and hooking up to humidifiers and perhaps heaters before long. They will control the lights, circulation fans, it's quite a list of stuff for 100 sheets. However, it's plug&play with just their other items. If you want temp&RH to adjust fan speed in a commercial situation, without anything else, it's going to cost at least 5 times that. Though in reality that ACinfinity controller is just PWM based, and can have the wires peeled out to control any EC fan you like. The crossover of products isn't there though.
I was recently looking at EC/pH meters that are constantly in the tank. It seemed 250 sheet was typical. Yet, you can get one for 50 sheets that datalogs to your phone via the internet. For just 20 more, it can run dosing pumps. It's aimed at fish people, but commercially it would again cost 10x more.
What they can make us, and what they do make us, are very different.


When you spoke of irrigation control by the climate control people, are you talking about feed adjustments based on weather ?
I really can't do that as a hobby guy, but have been collecting parts to stop the drip cycle once a runoff volume has been detected. I can't see a way to modify my EC for water use though. That's some serious computing, that a hobby grower isn't expect to of thought about. We do though.. some of us.

I fully agree.
For my home grow, I cannot do like commercial as well. As you said price for those equipments are x10 easily compare to hobby grow equipment.

Really awesome that you are taking your home facility to the next level.

About the irrigation system,
Yes, watering depends on the weather and one more important thing I want to mention is so how does the company quantify that weather differences in plants.
So in the end, when it comes to application of irrigation system,

How much “x” is accumulated in “y” per 1 joule of energy accumulation per 1 square meter space?

In theory, simply just you want to water as much as plant transpirate.

For example of Aqua Balance from Hoogendoorn, they track the weight of the slab (substate) and so on to quantify accumulation. So for them “x” is weight and “y” is slab.

However, in case of Grosens from Grodan or that Aroya stuffs which directly measures moisture content in the substrate,
“x” is moisture content (%) and “y” is slab.
I thought of using data-logging scale for commercial factory uses at my hobby grow but price was too much that I had to step it back.

 

[Ca++]

How is your electronics?
A temperature logger is very cheap now, as are digital bathroom scales. The interesting bit, would be pulling a voltage from the strain gauge, and putting it where the temperature sensor is. It might be just a $5 board, making it a $50 project. Both are analogue items, so it won't trouble the local TV repair man, if you needed help. Or if you can't find a TV guy, then a taxi radio guy.

Weighing pots is something a few of us here do. Actual moisture level measurement seems fraught with problems though. It's gotta be capacative, for a non-contact read. Which is then giving voltage swings as little as 0.5v between wet and dry, in some mediums. Which changes as the roots grow into the space they are monitoring. The contact methods are basically EC, which are more obviously unsteady. People here have tried and walked away, while my own attempts didn't get far past sensor tests, as they were all poor.


I have logged runoff volume against feed volume, when doing a few fertigations a day. I just had fixed speed extract, so got the full swings of the weather. Water use wasn't hugely effected, but at extremes, maybe 20% which did matter. I couldn't get 10% runoff every day, with water usage changing buy a greater proportion. In later bloom, trying to get 10% was seeing them run dry on hot days when I didn't respond quick enough (meaning get out of bed). I had to go with about 20% to waste, and on them days, I didn't get any waste on some fertigations. These were hot days, so I don't think the higher EC from the dry-back was an issue. Even though my lights are fixed.
In a greenhouse, the days they don't need as much water, they don't need as much food. On sunny days, they take more water, which brings more food. This means the EC in the tank doesn't have to change, to meet the higher demands on sunnier days. Indoors, it's a bit different. Days of extreme heat, use more water, but have no more light. They need the extra water, but not the feed that comes with it. The indoor grow could use a tank EC that tracks against water use. Very difficult to implement. Making the better environmental control of these new EC fan controllers very useful. With them able to keep the room more consistent, than my constant speed fans that mean I track the weather more.

Oddly, I have EC fans, and the fancy controller. I have never plugged it in though. It's a bit too fancy for my liking. I can't be bothered to learn how it works. Sometimes we just want things easy. Even if we could do better.

 

[HolyGrailP]

How is your electronics?
A temperature logger is very cheap now, as are digital bathroom scales. The interesting bit, would be pulling a voltage from the strain gauge, and putting it where the temperature sensor is. It might be just a $5 board, making it a $50 project. Both are analogue items, so it won't trouble the local TV repair man, if you needed help. Or if you can't find a TV guy, then a taxi radio guy.

Weighing pots is something a few of us here do. Actual moisture level measurement seems fraught with problems though. It's gotta be capacative, for a non-contact read. Which is then giving voltage swings as little as 0.5v between wet and dry, in some mediums. Which changes as the roots grow into the space they are monitoring. The contact methods are basically EC, which are more obviously unsteady. People here have tried and walked away, while my own attempts didn't get far past sensor tests, as they were all poor.


I have logged runoff volume against feed volume, when doing a few fertigations a day. I just had fixed speed extract, so got the full swings of the weather. Water use wasn't hugely effected, but at extremes, maybe 20% which did matter. I couldn't get 10% runoff every day, with water usage changing buy a greater proportion. In later bloom, trying to get 10% was seeing them run dry on hot days when I didn't respond quick enough (meaning get out of bed). I had to go with about 20% to waste, and on them days, I didn't get any waste on some fertigations. These were hot days, so I don't think the higher EC from the dry-back was an issue. Even though my lights are fixed.
In a greenhouse, the days they don't need as much water, they don't need as much food. On sunny days, they take more water, which brings more food. This means the EC in the tank doesn't have to change, to meet the higher demands on sunnier days. Indoors, it's a bit different. Days of extreme heat, use more water, but have no more light. They need the extra water, but not the feed that comes with it. The indoor grow could use a tank EC that tracks against water use. Very difficult to implement. Making the better environmental control of these new EC fan controllers very useful. With them able to keep the room more consistent, than my constant speed fans that mean I track the weather more.

Oddly, I have EC fans, and the fancy controller. I have never plugged it in though. It's a bit too fancy for my liking. I can't be bothered to learn how it works. Sometimes we just want things easy. Even if we could do better.

Damn that was very enjoyable read haha
My electronic is weak
I can recap it but the last time I was working on circuit was 2014 haha ever since then maximum i did was DIY led kit

I have my personal favorite method for irrigation strategy but it is just theoretical level. Only know one guy in the world who implemented. Horticulturists will see when Priva release their new system and evaluate.
Will keep that short for now and I fully agree with you that Soil moisture sensor is little suspicious.

I prefer weighing way more than soil moisture because of more consistency and accuracy. Fully agree on you.

Also haha, that’s how I did after giving up on weighing. By volume. That was by far the cheapest way to do at hobby level with relevant results. I loved it.
In addition, with this way I may not be on point with every control, am sure am not, because to target dry back correctly, we need feed forward system and haha really one or two companies doing that clos to correct in the whole world haha
But with this way, am sure we are keeping the right trend! That’s what matters for growers anyway.

Just pH control will be one more thing to consider from this. I do this with NO3:NH4 ratio, prolly the classic way.

But all besides,
Some interesting things you mentioned about indoor and fans.
I love forced air flow in fully closed chamber. Of course with EC fan haha

Because that high heat (long wave radiation) can be used for energy input to plants meaning free higher transpiration.

Just annoying part will be that low radiation-temperature ratio…sht will cause too much utilization on energy, I mean respiration.
Assume, with high humidity in the day time can provide buffer and also dropping night time temp somewhat hugely can compensate that.

But damn your reply was a fun read on the forum in a while haha

 

[marwachine]

Damn that was very enjoyable read haha
My electronic is weak
I can recap it but the last time I was working on circuit was 2014 haha ever since then maximum i did was DIY led kit

I have my personal favorite method for irrigation strategy but it is just theoretical level. Only know one guy in the world who implemented. Horticulturists will see when Priva release their new system and evaluate.
Will keep that short for now and I fully agree with you that Soil moisture sensor is little suspicious.

I prefer weighing way more than soil moisture because of more consistency and accuracy. Fully agree on you.

Also haha, that’s how I did after giving up on weighing. By volume. That was by far the cheapest way to do at hobby level with relevant results. I loved it.
In addition, with this way I may not be on point with every control, am sure am not, because to target dry back correctly, we need feed forward system and haha really one or two companies doing that clos to correct in the whole world haha
But with this way, am sure we are keeping the right trend! That’s what matters for growers anyway.

Just pH control will be one more thing to consider from this. I do this with NO3:NH4 ratio, prolly the classic way.

But all besides,
Some interesting things you mentioned about indoor and fans.
I love forced air flow in fully closed chamber. Of course with EC fan haha

Because that high heat (long wave radiation) can be used for energy input to plants meaning free higher transpiration.

Just annoying part will be that low radiation-temperature ratio…sht will cause too much utilization on energy, I mean respiration.
Assume, with high humidity in the day time can provide buffer and also dropping night time temp somewhat hugely can compensate that.

But damn your reply was a fun read on the forum in a while haha

I'm growing outdoors using soil in pots. How should I approach watering as a hobbyist? I want to practice steering but I'm in a country where there's not much tech regarding farming so the drybacks are kinda hard to gauge. Practical advice would be awesome. Am using 3 gal pots btw and backyard soil that's kinda sandy when dry.

 

[HolyGrailP]

I'm growing outdoors using soil in pots. How should I approach watering as a hobbyist? I want to practice steering but I'm in a country where there's not much tech regarding farming so the drybacks are kinda hard to gauge. Practical advice would be awesome. Am using 3 gal pots btw and backyard soil that's kinda sandy when dry.

That is really really hard.
I think in your case it is not possible to effectively or uniformly steer it.

I mean if you are using pots then you can do with water volume which you just need a gutter (use tray) below the pot and just elevate pot so pot never sink in the drain water.
But detail I can tell you more after if this would be interesting.

Besides without measuring equipment it is really not possible to steer it
I mean to control you should know what you are reading it, right?

So if you are going to use backyard soil instead of pot, I would highly recommend to go regenerative organic way.
Because when there is a lotta microbes, plants get a lot of buffer. Many stresses are tolerated. You may not be able to precisely control it but low input with healthy grow will compensate. In other words, regenerative ones you don’t have to control it, so that can be an interesting option to you!

 

[marwachine]

That is really really hard.
I think in your case it is not possible to effectively or uniformly steer it.

I mean if you are using pots then you can do with water volume which you just need a gutter (use tray) below the pot and just elevate pot so pot never sink in the drain water.
But detail I can tell you more after if this would be interesting.

I wanna hear more about it.

Besides without measuring equipment it is really not possible to steer it
I mean to control you should know what you are reading it, right?

I guess so.

So if you are going to use backyard soil instead of pot, I would highly recommend to go regenerative organic way.
Because when there is a lotta microbes, plants get a lot of buffer. Many stresses are tolerated. You may not be able to precisely control it but low input with healthy grow will compensate. In other words, regenerative ones you don’t have to control it, so that can be an interesting option to you!

I bought masterblend tomato formula and was planning to go synganic route. What do you recommend regarding watering and feeding if I couldn't practice steering, the regular old wet and dry cycle? I was also told to master root development by a farmer. How can I do this with what I have available right now. Am using fabric pots btw.