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Come and watch me fill my screen!

Hey there micro growers, I've got something that should be right up your alley!

picture.php


Its a low-profile all-organic all-floro grow. Mixed genetics from un-feminized seeds, a quick run down from left to right:



White Widow #1, Mutt Weed #1, Sheerah!,Dutch Mystery #2, White Widow #2

And a quick slide-show of overall progress:


Its been 32 days since I stuck the seeds in the wet towel. I just flipped the switch to send them into flower.

Now, if you studied the pictures carefully and/or have seen any of my other posts you know that I'm not actually a real-life micro gardener. I used to be. I've graduated from my old cabinet to a brand-new grow-room. All of the grow-kit that I'm using is from my old grow. Building my new room cost so much money and time that I didn't have any left over for some sweet new grow kit, so I'm stuck using the old stuff.

However, I think this grow is still very relevant to you guys. The gear is very compact. It used to fit in a cabinet that was 56 inches wide, 18 inches deep and only 24 inches tall. Very, very compact for the yields it is capable of. That, and I figure none of you guys can resist watching a good-ole ScrOG fill up with frosty nugs!

Some details:

As you could see from my first image, I'm running an old-timey 4 foot T12/T8 fixture. All you serious micro kids seem to have moved on to the fancy new PL-L type floros. They seem to preform very nicely, but I'm a cheapskate and so the prices of PL-L lamps and fixtures are just too much for me. So I'm stuck with a more old-skool setup, but that's OK because you can teach an old dog new tricks:



First, I use foil-tape reflectors. This is a trick I picked up way back on the Overgrow forums. They can drastically up the light delivery of traditional floro tubes, just make sure to leave an inch or two on the ends with no tape.



And then I use an overdriven ballast configuration. Two 4-lamp T12/T8 ballasts are wired in parallel rather than series. Instead of running 8 tubes they run 4 overdriven tubes together! This gives you added output and massively improved penetrating power: something floros are always woefully poor at. This comes at the cost of increased running temperature of the tubes, shorter tube life and a slight loss in efficiency. However, the ballasts actually run cooler than normal because the load presented to them is of a lower resistance than normal (4 gas-filled tubes are easier to push electricity through than 8) and therefore tend to live a bit longer in this configuration.

The results of all this is a 344 watt T12/T8 lamp for less than 100 dollars. It has 4 overdriven sockets that run T12s and 2 normally-driven sockets that run T8s. Through veg I ran 6500K T12s and 5000K T8s. I just pulled the switch to go to flower today. That means I've swapped out the T12s for some General Electric Plant & Aquariums. The 5000K T8s will stay for the first couple weeks of flower. After buds start to show and trics appear they will be swapped out for a pair of T8 5% UV-B lizard lamps.

The plants are growing out of 4 gallon OBBTs. OBBTs, for the uninitiated, are a new form of organic hydro that stands for Organic Bubble Bath Tub. They use a coco moss-based medium over a lava-rock filled bath that has air constantly injected into it a-la DWC. The results are a very high-performance all-organic grow medium that is so easy to run it is basically maintinence-free. All I've done to the plants you see in these pictures is water them. Twice. Two waterings got me all the way through veg, thats it. No feeding, no checking the TDS of the water, no babysitting the pH, no worries about E.C. measurements, no concerns reguarding the state of the micro-life, no thoughts about root rot or pathogens, no nothing.

If this interests you (and I suspect that by now it does), the issues of how best to construct and run an OBBT have pretty much completely taken over the organic hydro forums. There are many gardeners now trying out and attempting to improve the technique. Wander on over to the organic hydro section or just hit the "OBBT grow show" link in my sig to take you to my own guide on the process.

So, the grow medium is very low-maintinence, but my chosen training method is about as high-maintinence as they come. I'm doing ScrOG, duh, but its a little different than is typical. You may have noticed my plants look a little too big to have just hit the switch. In a normal screen-training scenario they would prolly grow to large and stretchy at this point. However, I run what I call 'true ScrOG', as this was how the method was done way back when it was introduced. I actually 'weave' the plants into the screen which basically requires a hexagonal mesh instead of a square one. Completing a weave step takes 3 holes in the screen. A growth tip comes up through the first, you poke it down into the second and it grows back out the third. Like so:



This goes hand-in-hand with supercropping. In order to get the stems to bend in such a way without breaking them you have to first take them between to fingers and gently crush them while twisting. The pholem gives way and lets you put the growth tip wherever you want without damaging it permanently. This weaving technique allows you unpresidented nug density. It isn't uncommon for me to get two or even three buds from a single hole in my screen. You can veg plants longer and get them bigger in a smaller space this way. Combine this with overdriven floros and you would be amazed at the quantity of high-quality bud that can be had from a mind-bendingly small space. It is not for the impatient or feint of heart, you have to be willing to spend a good 20-30 minutes with your girls every day through the second half of veg and well into flower. Leave them alone for more than a day or two and they will break out of the screen and mash themselves into the lamps. Not good.


Happily, I am fully prepared for this level of micro-management. It isn't for everyone, but if you love the ganjas then I think it is one of the most rewarding grow methods out there. Sit back and light a fat one my micro-gardening friends, this is gonna be one hell of a show! :joint:

 
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Moldy Dreads

Active member
Veteran
Cool, I love micro stealth grows, how come not T5s or compact, those are t8 right?

edit - just read the answer sorry, you would love T5, same thing but smaller and better lumens for that type of grow..just a suggestion, love the grow.
peace
 

virago420

Member
Wow this does look very interesting. Cant wait to watch that screen fill up with monster buds. Ill be following along. Looking awesome so far. Keep it up. Peace
 

#1cheesebuds

Well-known member
Veteran
dammmmm dude they be looken very very nice. I am gunna pull up a seat for this one.
I love to grow and watch plants beening grown scrog style.
 

ScrubNinja

Grow like nobody is watching
Veteran
This is so awesome! I was fixing to do an OBBT but things just didn't pan out. I've seen a few of your posts though and I enjoy the detail you go into.

I agree totally with you on the true scrog thoughts and weaving. One thing driving me nuts though - you say "You may have noticed my plants look a little too big to have just hit the switch" except you only have, what, 45 or 50% of the screen filled. I would think it's way too early to flip and have a full screen of bud density you describe. But I'm no expert and quite willing to be schooled :)

Any chance you could elaborate on the tube reflector? Is it basically shiny reflective stuff covering the top surface of the tube? Like, actually resting on the tube?

Look forward to seeing this kick some ass :yes:
 

Hella THC

Member
I've never seen this method before. It's awesome sounding though. I tried to click on the link in your sig but for some reason, I got the IC Mag error page saying I wasn't allowed to access that feature. :( I'm not sure why. Time to problem solve!
 
Any chance you could elaborate on the tube reflector? Is it basically shiny reflective stuff covering the top surface of the tube? Like, actually resting on the tube?


That is exactly what I was going to ask. It looks like its just a strip of foil tape right on the bulb.

Pretty neat idea, I wonder how effective it really is?
 

catman

half cat half man half baked
Veteran
Impressive. Could we get an external shot of the cabinet? I think the thing that needs to be most appreciated is that it is only 2 feet tall.
 
:DHehe, Wow! :D

Thought you micro cats would get a kick out of my rig, but 10 responses in 24 hours is pretty kewl! :rasta:

I agree totally with you on the true scrog thoughts and weaving. One thing driving me nuts though - you say "You may have noticed my plants look a little too big to have just hit the switch" except you only have, what, 45 or 50% of the screen filled. I would think it's way too early to flip and have a full screen of bud density you describe. But I'm no expert and quite willing to be schooled

Look forward to seeing this kick some ass


Hey buddy! Bummer on having to abort your OBBT attempt, they are picky about how you put them together but after that its a breeze!

You have a good eye mate, I would guess that they had just passed the 50% screen-filled tipping-point as I flipped the switch. With my method, 50% is just about right. In one of my previous updates I bragged that I was gonna push the line and go well past 50, but the way they're going, tending to them and seeing them IRL, my gardener's intuition just screamed to let them go.

Veg on these guys is pretty nuts, they grow like crazy but energy storage is even crazier. With Leaf training and never topping and shit there's just so much stored up starch in the lower fan leaves and roots and big fat woody supercropped stems. Pull the switch and the girls flip the fuck out, responding like they've missed the summer solstice by several months.

Doubling in size is about the minimum of what you will see during "sexing/stretch". There are pleanty of breeds though that are notorious for doing a lot more than that. AK strains especially will easily triple their foliage before exploding into buds.

I've got vastly mixed genetics. I know that Sheerah! line have all previously reacted beastly during early flower. WW#1 shaping up to be absurd. Dutch Mystery #2 has actually had some of the most impressive development, but she doesn't like to bush and I've had a bastard of a time getting her to stretch into my screen. Going to flower light will change all that shit in a hurry and I fully expect her to be the most visually impressive flower response.

So, uhhh... yea, pretty baked sorry :rasta::smoke::rasta:.

Haha! But uhh, yea filling that empty 50% of my screen is not gonna be a battle to get it full, its gonna be a big fight to keep it from being totally fucking overrun. These are not some cutoff clones, they haven't been under flower light at all till just today
, these are honest-to-god seed-started MONSTERS. The've gotta be like 2/3 root mass with my crazy-high-nitrogen medium and super-blue lamps.
I've never seen this method before. It's awesome sounding though. I tried to click on the link in your sig but for some reason, I got the IC Mag error page saying I wasn't allowed to access that feature. :( I'm not sure why. Time to problem solve!

my bad brothah! That link went bad for some reason, fixed it now. :whip:

That is exactly what I was going to ask. It looks like its just a strip of foil tape right on the bulb.

Pretty neat idea, I wonder how effective it really is?

hehe, Stash you Bastard you're making me feel old! This used to be an ubiquious trick on Overgrow.

http://www.drugs-forum.com/growfaq/1475.htm

It is just aluminum foil tape slapped right the fuck on the bulb. Don't cover much more than 1/3 of it's surface area, don't cover the last 1.5 inches of glass near the ends and you are good to go.

As for how effective it is, well, you could make a very credible scientific argument for this being just about the best reflector design for tube-style floros short of having a mylar film sprayed into/onto it or some shit. I'm definitely not the person to make that argument, but I believe it.

Cool, I love micro stealth grows, how come not T5s or compact, those are t8 right?

edit - just read the answer sorry, you would love T5, same thing but smaller and better lumens for that type of grow..just a suggestion, love the grow.
peace

Hey buddy,thanks for the love!

I've seen all kinds of gear on T5s, and I was recently tempted by them actually because reasonable ballasts and fixtures and tubes have found their way into me local big box hardware stores.

However, the fuckers are still comparatively spendy, run hot and take poorly to overdriving. You see, I'm a penny-pincher and a bit old-fashioned and chrotchety and I consider the pinnacle of florescent lighting technology in terms of what to hang over buds to be the 48 inch General Electric Plant&Aquarium T12

I can buy them for 7 bucks each at motherfucking Lowe's and that for me is perfection.

Yes, I know, fucking T12s are dinosaurs! PL-Ls, AKA the cost-effective bent-over T5 High-output make a 48 inch T12 look like a mag-light with the batteries half-drained.

But, and it is a large, round, full-bodied but, if you give those old T-12s the right treatment they are in a league of their own.

With foil-tape reflectors and charged up by the crazy high-tech 4-lamp instant-start ballasts (that I can get, complete with dope-ass fixture, for 32 dollars each) wired in overdrive the things just bud like small HIDs!

Read the lable on a GE P&A. Go on, I'll wait.......:joint:.......

Yea! I know, right? 1900 motherfucking lumens!? from 40 watts? that's it!? That's pathetic!!! I could get 2000 lumens from a 13 watt CFL in the right reflector, what gives???

Well children, lumens are a crap measure of the little chunk of the electromagnetic frequency which we call 'light'. As far as plants are concerned, lumens don't really tell us a lot about the quality of light. That's why you need at least lumens and color temperature to judge a light for the ganjas.

But there is another measurement called PAR

That's Photosynthetically Active Radiation

....yea, what the fuck?

Anyway, its the light spectrum viewed from how the plants give a shit about it as far as making their food, I.E. with all the green cut out and some other lumps and bumps put in. When measured this way GE P&As blow away any floro light source you can bring to the table.

Yes, there are tons of 'red' T5s running around out there with cool phosphor coatings like the P&A has, but those are 'red' lamps, the P&A has the red but at its core its still a GE Chroma 50, so its got the goods in blues as well.

When overdriven, the old-dog T-12s are poetry in motion. Their big, fat diameters and tons of surface area means that normally they are dim and waste a lot of heat compared to T8s/T5s, but in overdrive that surface area keeps them nice and cool, in a well-ventilated area they remain within normal operating temperatures.

Overdriven T8s get hot enough to burn plants badly at a touch and I don't even want to think about T5s done this way. For me at least, this rig is the ultimate of what floros have to offer. Its a bit wide and narrow and unwieldy (48 by 12 inches is an odd size, makes way more heat than you expect) and a bit too power-hungry for what it does but I love it

For me I couldn't do reasonably better without going HID (which is exactly what I plan to do when this lot is done)

err, haha as you can see I've given it all some thought. Definitely didn't post here to get advice on micro techniques, should have specified. All those things, T5s included, have excellent merits for other people's situations. I will not be considering any new micro techniques because after years of cab-growing I've graduated to a room.

Still, this is one last hurrah for me old micro techniques and so I thought I would share. Shit by now is set in stone and so I just wanted to make a bit of a show about what you can yield with shit from Home Depot and Ace hardware.

Stay tuned everyone!!

:woohoo:
 

Leviathan

Member
i dont understand what u mean when u say you put tape over the lights?

will see what u pull of this setup, this dutch guy=http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=67001&highlight=150watt+hps is pulling 60 grams from 72 watts of t-8s doing a similar style that u are.. u think you will match is gpw with this setup?

i like floro grows, the inverse sqaure law of light is eliminated as the buds are practically touching the tubes and if u choose wisely the spectrum or light quality that they give off rivals both hps n metal halides and makes better smoke. if you do the math, beka here(the ductch grower) would be pulling a half pound of 288 watts of t-8s if he hooked up 4 more of thees little grows. thats incredible.
 
Uhh, what I mean when I say to put tape on the lights is to, uhhh, put tape on the lights

Double-check my last post for a link to a page on the old Overgrow FAQ, that little article makes it all sensible.

As for 60 grams from 72 watts from mr dutch style: Meh, weak.

I've cracked 1 gram per watt with this rig before, so I know I'll beat his results without even trying too hard.

What he did, honestly, was much more like SOG, than ScrOG. Look at the shots from late in that grow, what do you see? A million little vertical popcorn nugs. That is nothing like what my grow will look like 8 weeks into flower. I'll have big, fat, glistening horizontal nugs instead of those punny little vertical popcorns. Horizontal nugs are the whole point of my rig and they allow unprecedented budmass under floros. I mean, just look at what his buds looked like once dry. Not very impressive.

Just because you run floros doesn't mean you have to go with a plantlet method like he does. You can have your low-headroom cake and eat it too. Big, fat, voluptuous nuggies are well within the reach of floro gardeners.

Everything about his rig is just a step or two below mine. Non-overdriven floros. Krinkly aluminum foil reflectors. Phillips Master Color tubes. An ordinary soil-based medium. He's growing with the volume set at 7 whereas I've cranked it way past 11.

His rig is lovely, very nice, I'm sure its easy to run and as predictable as a cast-iron stove. But he's got no fun extras. I'm putting the boat out, and will be using fancy tricks like Cytokinin hormone treatment and Ultra-Violet spectrum tubes.

You're right about floros though, choose the right tubes and you can get a color spectrum way better than even the fanciest horticultural CMH and HPS bulbs. I've always maintained that with the right setup, a floro ganja gardener can get bud of a quality that is right up there with the best HID stuff. Its getting the quantity up to snuff that is the real trick.

A trick I intend to demonstrate. Sit tight buddy boy, you aint seen nothing yet!
 
Impressive. Could we get an external shot of the cabinet? I think the thing that needs to be most appreciated is that it is only 2 feet tall.

Because of the dimensions of my room that is a bit hard to do, but here ya go!



Between those two you should get a nice idea. I guess 2 feet may be a bit of an exaggeration. The tubs that the medium sits in are about a foot tall with the valve and shit which only leaves 1 foot for the plants and lamp and screen and such. Might be doable but that isn't really enough. Put it this way: you would get it in well under 3 feet no problem-o. Other than that you are only limited by the 4 foot width of the lamp. With ventilation and drainage and shit the whole thing would go inside of a box 32 inches tall by 52 inches wide by 18 inches deep very easily. And that's with my rather deep, a-bit-too-big tubs. You could get away with a 3 or even maybe 2 gallon tub with plants this small. Cut 3 or 4 inches out of the tub height and the whole thing is seriously compact.

The ladies have gone shooting off already, its been a serious liftoff:


Pic on the left was taken less than 24 hours before pic on the right. Yes ScrubNinja, I don't think I'll be having any issue filling my screen at all :joint:

Stay tuned!
 

Leviathan

Member
your cracking a gram a watt because your vegging longer, big deal. will see if u pull over 344 grams from this 344 watt setup, am i right 344 watts? whatevers,.but best of luck to you your very talented.
 
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ScrubNinja

Grow like nobody is watching
Veteran
What do you mean by horizontal buds? Are you going to supercrop them above screen? You mentioned supercropping but only for the weaving part. Do you perhaps have a picture of what you'd consider a finished scrog in this style? (even someone else's grow)

What I found in my first (and only btw) scrog, I flipped too early. So I was weaving longer to fill up the screen, and before I could, the buds started forming and then it was like, do I let em grow up, or keep trying to fill the screen? And being a newb it it ended with a lot of the bud tangled in the screen, not swayin' in the breeze above screen like I was expecting. It was essentially a carpet of popcorn.

Also, do you mean we stick the tape to the back of the...haha, just fuckin' with ya. Thanks. I'll definitely be doing obbt's some day. I have no doubt you can do what you say by the way, it just seems surprising. :)
 
your cracking a gram a watt because your vegging longer, big deal. will see if u pull over 344 grams from this 344 watt setup, am i right 344 watts? whatevers,.but best of luck to you your very talented.

Heh, that's why I've always preferred the old Overgrow standard of yield measurement:

Grams/Watt/Month

Takes into account not only your yield efficiency in terms of light power, but time as well.

However, I'd be surprised if I've vegged any longer than Mr. Dutch. When I first posted this thread the plants where 31 days from seed. Out of that 31 days they spend 4-5 days sprouting in a warm wet towel and then another 5-7 days where the sprouts had gone into the medium and did not grow their foliage any but just rooted in (this is the phase where most people put the sprout in a peat pellet or something).

So really, the plants only vegged out for 2 weeks. Mr. Dutch was using clones and I very much doubt that his plants spent significantly less time than mine did under 18/6 veg light. I think if you looked around you would find 31 days from seed is actually just about the quickest veg as can be managed, for any ganja grower working with seed.

Yes, my lamp is indeed 344 watts and as long as I don't get a male (which hasn't happened to me in years) then I fully expect to break a 350 gram yield.

What do you mean by horizontal buds? Are you going to supercrop them above screen? You mentioned supercropping but only for the weaving part. Do you perhaps have a picture of what you'd consider a finished scrog in this style? (even someone else's grow)

What I found in my first (and only btw) scrog, I flipped too early. So I was weaving longer to fill up the screen, and before I could, the buds started forming and then it was like, do I let em grow up, or keep trying to fill the screen? And being a newb it it ended with a lot of the bud tangled in the screen, not swayin' in the breeze above screen like I was expecting. It was essentially a carpet of popcorn.

Also, do you mean we stick the tape to the back of the...haha, just fuckin' with ya. Thanks. I'll definitely be doing obbt's some day. I have no doubt you can do what you say by the way, it just seems surprising. :)

Yes, I can see where a lot of my claims would seem surprising. See, there's more at play here than some nice organic hydro and overdriven floros.

My method is a complete package and it vastly changes the way cannabis behaves. Normally, you flip the switch to flower and within 7-10 days all of the plants show their sex (males and females emerging at roughly the same time) and then you seperate them and move on. Also, ususally, if you have been vegging for a while then you can see the sex of the plants before going to flower anyway.

This is not how its gonna go down for me. Heavy cytokinin treatment makes the plants look pretty effeminent, they want to be girls, but they take forever to show their sex. These plants will never show pre-sex during veg no matter how long they stay in it. When I go to flower my males show within, like, 72 hours of flipping the switch. Males come bursting out with massive exuberance, they get covered in nuts very quickly and are producing pollen within 2 weeks.

All the rest of the plants who don't bust some nuts within the first couple of days just strech like crazy. They stretch and stretch and then stretch some more, they just grow for ages, doubling or tripling in size, it can take up to 3 weeks. During this time the plants show no sighn of their sex whatsoever. They are very weird, effemeinate looking to be sure but not a single pistil to be seen.

At the end of this unusually long strech on the odd asexual plants start busting out buds and go along their merry way.

Because of this, I have a much longer time to fill me screen after flipping the switch.

I guess I was a bit misleading. The goal of this grow is not to have 'horizontal buds' it is to have 'horizontal colas'

Look here:

This is a vertical cola, like we all know and love, courtesy of Mr. Wags.

2102IMG_00091.JPG


This is a horizontal cola, courtesy of FreezerBoy:

35769DS_1-16-9-TopColas.jpg



Yes, you see, big difference. The vertical cola is nice and symetrical with that classic Christmas Tree shape. The horizontal one if you notice is very asymetrical. All of the bud comes up off the main stem and points itself in one direction. That is what we are after here. Horizontal colas will develop much better under a lighting situation like mine than verticals ever could and achieving this is generally the goal of ScrOG.

Supercropping will continue as foliage makes it above the screen. The object is to continually crush the stems and bend the whole thing back underneath again. The 'weave' is completed when the plant does the last bit itself: grow back up into the screen. Wash, rinse, repeat.


Hope that clarifies a little what we're trying to do here. Not sure I'll manage to produce some two-liter-bottle-dwarfing horizontal top-cola monstrocities like Freezer Boy has done, but goddamnit I'm gonna try! :joint:
 

Leviathan

Member
theres plenty of people vegging for two weeks.. at one month veg plus 60 days flower your at 3 months atleast for a harvest.. not bad not great. your basically doing what most people can do, do u think bending a branch over is news? but i like your grow, your very talented.
 

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