CMH vs LED vs HPS

[kro-magnon]

Spectrum and heat are important too . Honestly heat is often understated as far as getting good growth efficiency

Do you think like other growers that you need around 28/30°c with LED to get the better result possible ?
I try to rise the temp as much as I can without using too much energy but I get around 26/27°C at best in my flower room. The plants look really healthy but they have not started to produce flower yet at day 10 of 12/12, I have no idea what it will change. In veg they were looking happy with 20/21°C.

 

[goingrey]

I'm sorry but it's time to stop this none sense of "you must not know how to use LEDs" because the same thing could clearly be said about you "not knowing how to use hid".

All I hear is, you need a perfect environment with led to equal a just ok environment with hps... Do you realize how stupid that sounds?

So ultimately your saying it's the environment that is producing the end product not the light.

Anyways, is there any large cannabis cups that have been won with led grown buds? That would be a true head to head smoke test by people with good/high tolerances

Well getting twice the g/W is not stupid at all, even if there are additional demands from the environment. Of course if more electricity is needed to create that environment (heaters for example) that should be taken into account in the g/W calculation.

 

[cfl...KING]

Gpw doesn't equal quality tho. I also have seen people pulling 4lb a light from hps. Again it's based on people not using hps to it's fullest with perfect environments then going led an focusing on the environment way more an then claiming the "better" results are the lights not the environment.

I grew up using cfls, there was a learning curve when switching to hps. But I was able to pull 20-24oz out of a 2x3 cabinet with a 600w hps of top quality bud. Now scaling that to 2-4k rooms I've ran the gpm didn't always track because of wasted space where the light wouldn't be reflected back onto the plants. With led your not so much concerned with that because it's more directional. There's a ton of factors for both led an hps but hps is more versatile an user friendly, that on its own should count for something. Also I'm never ran a sealed room with co2 like most led growers do. That alone will have a decent impact on yeild.

I have no experience flowering with led but a majority of what I'm seeing is led with perfect grow room environments supplemented with co2 vs pretty basic hps setups that are not supplemented with CO2. It's not apples to apples.

 

[exoticrobotic]

Well getting twice the g/W is not stupid at all

Sure...If you are a commercial grower but led bud comes with a depleted high tested in my expert lab... (the brain).

Something is missing in led bud that causes me to chain smoke the bud forever trying to chase and find what my brain perceives as missing.

Sure, it's nice pulling over 1gpw but for me it's like tomatoes, watery firm and crisp, or sugary squidgy and ripe.

 

[exoticrobotic]

I have no experience flowering with led

It grows larger buds a week or so quicker but in my opinion not as good potency.

When i first tried the maxibright 300w led set up i was very impressed with the speed and size of the plants.

The plants didnt stretch as much, internodal space was reduced and the buds seemed bigger and longer.

But it never matured properly so there was no spine supporting the high causing it to quickly fade.

But hey, it could be that my 50 year old ass who's been growing for the last 30 years doesnt really in fact know how to grow at all

Beautiful rooms @Crooked8

 

[LHC]

Very interesting thread.
I am a novice grower, and do not have much experience. I use 4000K HLG LED in veg/stretch, and then switch to CMH. For me, that is a method that works for making connoisseur ganja.

 

[cfl...KING]

It grows larger buds a week or so quicker but in my opinion not as good potency.

When i first tried the maxibright 300w led set up i was very impressed with the speed and size of the plants.

The plants didnt stretch as much, internodal space was reduced and the buds seemed bigger and longer.

But it never matured properly so there was no spine supporting the high causing it to quickly fade.

But hey, it could be that my 50 year old ass who's been growing for the last 30 years doesnt really in fact know how to grow at all

Beautiful rooms @Crooked8

Sounds almost like flowering with 27w cfl vs 55-100w cfls. The THC heads are larger an the buds ripen better. I've pulled off some decent bud under cfls but nothing compared to the quality difference when I went to a 600w hps. Went from 300w cfl to 600hps an never looked back

 

[exoticrobotic]

Very interesting thread.
I am a novice grower, and do not have much experience. I use 4000K HLG LED in veg/stretch, and then switch to CMH. For me, that is a method that works for making connoisseur ganja.

The best of both worlds.

 

[goingrey]

Sure...If you are a commercial grower but led bud comes with a depleted high tested in my expert lab... (the brain).

Something is missing in led bud that causes me to chain smoke the bud forever trying to chase and find what my brain perceives as missing.

Sure, it's nice pulling over 1gpw but for me it's like tomatoes, watery firm and crisp, or sugary squidgy and ripe.

Sunlight is free and creates a more satisfying product than both LED and HPS.

Maybe the energy put into lighting should be used to heat/cool/ventilate greenhouses instead.

Or just have fields in the open and refine the quality with extraction. The Moroccans had it right all along?

 

[exoticrobotic]

Leds were initially developed for increased biomass and they do indeed deliver on this.

I'm just not so sure on their ability to power the cannabinoid and terpene pathways when compared with hids.

 

[exoticrobotic]

The THC heads are larger an the buds ripen better

Not quite how it pans out with leds in my experience @cfl...KING

The buds stop growing and seem done with clear/cloudy trics a week or so earlier than with cmh.

The resin glands though are a lot smaller, no bulbous heads! There are more clear heads and less amber heads with led and the stalks are thicker than the heads with my led grows...

 

[JKD]

Maybe the energy put into lighting should be used to heat/cool/ventilate greenhouses instead.

This is on my house building wish list. Insulated, reflective walls etc. Double layer ETFE ‘ceiling’, one clear, one opaque. Indoor environmental controls - VPD, odour etc etc.

 

[goingrey]

This is on my house building wish list. Insulated, reflective walls etc. Double layer ETFE ‘ceiling’, one clear, one opaque. Indoor environmental controls - VPD, odour etc etc.

Don't forget the motorized blinds to force flowering.

 

[Crooked8]

Now that's a comment I like, more context, less author related Bullish
I like your ops, looks pro.

Still don't believe it, you say it but I can't believe you and stop taking it personal ! It's not you, it's all led growers with lab testing, I tried many, all bunk, so I only trust smoking from now on.

Yes, you do reach it, no one said you can't, but understand you are limited on the intensity each light source (diode) makes, so you have more ppfd for less $$ but it only means you created a lot more "weak" light for lack of better term in multiple places, which is fine, that's what LEDs are for...

Still looks like any other led bud.. blue purple budz.. not dissing you or your flower, they all just look the same for some reason.

I have to agree on that, I noticed they love to stretch also under the LEDs, and I see the CMH is keeping them tighter, but I think they make up for it in less heat and more light, in veg they are hard to beat, but you have more experience with the two so I will take your word for it, if big space is needed to veg you would still choose CMH ? Cuz I'm pretty sure I want to veg with my panels next round, but maybe you can shed some more light and opinion on CMH vs LEDs in this area.

Because it's a lie... The quality is not better, everything else might be, but to say the quality is better is just ludacris, but maybe you are talking about other qualities, weight, lower cost, I don't know, but I'm sure in the potency taste smell it's not better, now this is the realm of subjective opinion so I won't go any further on this matter.

You are right, and that's why I think LEDs are great overall for their own application, they still are not the ultimate light machine as they are formulated and built in such ways to hide their cons.
Btw, your opinion always matters, I never said it didn't, when you took it personal I had to cut it, I hate when people get caught up in that shit, sorry if u got offended by me.



Cuz you smoke weed bro, not look/feel it
I know you think lab test should indicate something but it doesn't, maybe in the past when people were more honest then the 24% top that we used to see was still true.. today ? 31, 28, 37 you name a number and they hit it, but you take hit from that 31 bud and see them laugh all the way to the bank
I am open for thoughts and ideas on how come 16% bud is fire and a 31% is not
This is an honest question.

Ok, fine, you dont believe it. Im fine with that. But just know you are denying my ability to judge these things too. You can look back on my work here on icmag. Ive been a tester for breeders, bred my own genetics and run all the classics. You think I cant tell a drop in quality from my own smoke. You think i cant tell a dramatic change in flavor, smell and high from something ive known and cherished for over a decade in some cases? I have genetics ive held since 2011 or earlier. Ive tried the same cut under cmh, hid and led. How many people can say that? I fully feel my best work in all departments is current and produced under my agrobars. I have no reason to say otherwise. If my best ever smoke came from hids i would say so. I used to be just like you about hids. I was the one arguing against going for leds! I was ignorant and afraid to go for something new when i felt like we were already so successful. But what most people do with leds is they try it a few times and never truly learn to tweak all cardinal parameters to fit their new lighting. Its like throwing a lambo motor into a car with bald tires, youre fucked if you dont know what is needed to go the distance. Damn near every unsuccessful led grow ive seen i can pick out their problem instantly.

And regarding your photons being created by one bulb or lots of diodes, that argument is simply pointless. A photon, is a photon, is a photon, regardless of its source. If were lighting a 5x5 area and we create a higher average ppfd for less money, we win. A plant cannot discern whether or not its one bulb or multiple diodes, it only has success based on how much light its given. Leds produce WAY more intense light than hids collectively. Stating that one diode cannot produce what a 1000w bulb can is obvious to everyone, it doesnt matter. Cannabis is demanding in every way. If we can pour on more photons, cannabis loves that but only if we can keep up with those photons with our feed, air flow and most importantly co2. Just like the car with a lambo motor and bald tires, well end up in a ditch if we dont fine tune every parameter.

I do not feel after all this time that its easier to grow with leds at all. Quite the opposite, people have had loads of success with hps/hids and are comfortable. Then when they try to go led they fuck up and cry about how leds suck, just like you. Growing with leds takes serious attention to detail and the ability to adapt to running a race car instead of an economy car. Its not something you can pick up first try and I admit that first hand.

As for your all blue purple weird comments about led bud. Anthocyanin producing strains are everywhere and produce color regardless of their light source. I chose a photo of a strain that goes purple. Here are photos of an og and karma sour d bx2 tester that stays green grown under leds so you can at least put that bullshit to bed….

No purple/blue hues at all. Lime green, gassy funk for days w no foxtails….from led. I wont mention lab results bc you dont care about that. Which is probably the only thing youve said i agree with and heres why.

I literally know people who kief their samples before sending it off to lab it. And i mean add kief to the sample to hit crazy numbers. Ill be honest, we never hit 30%, ever. My highest lab ever was 27%. It was true and legitimate. So to answer your question as to why a bud that labs at 16% gets you higher than a 31% result, its based on one million+ things. Is it an honest result? Did someone get paid off? How about you? Are you in the same mood? Did you have any booze? Did you eat an edible too? So many factors involved that both lab testing and your personal smoke test honestly both get tossed out.

You took a turn in your most recent reply and were more respectful which I appreciate. I do take it personally when people spew fake info as fact to people on here. Icmag is near and dear to me, i learned SO much from people here. Please take a step back before you post to make sure youre not making assumptions about people or stating information that could be false. I feel like youre shooting from the hip quite a bit.

I am open to discussing anything, just know I will go to the furthest degree to find the truth in all of it.

 

[Crooked8]

Crooked8, great looking operation! And nice smackdown too, lol.

Thanks man, many years of hard work and borderline unhealthy obsession. Ill always love my job!

 

[Broggemann]

Congratulations, you are the silliest member of Icmag. You offer nothing. You are here to spread stupidity. Please leave.

That price actually goes to you.

There are members that presented scientific papers in this thread, which show that there IS a drastic change in cannabinoid and terpene/essential oil expression in cannabis and other plants under LED.

So now, after you realised science isn't actually on your side, you start arguing with personal observations against it - and your observations are the only ones to be right, because... you run a big room.
And everyone who makes other observations than you must be wrong, because... you run a big room.
And even tried different light sources at some point!
Thats broscience at its finest.

Did you read the studies linked on the last three pages?

Maybe you could just stop posting pictures, being theatrical and just aggresive.
If you're satisfied with the outcome from your LED grows, I'm the last person to question that.
But you don't have to state it over and over again.

If youre not able to respect different opinions/science, just leave the discussion.

 

[Crooked8]

That price actually goes to you.

There are members that presented scientific papers in this thread, which show that there IS a drastic change in cannabinoid and terpene/essential oil expression in cannabis and other plants under LED.

So now, after you realised science isn't actually on your side, you start arguing with personal observations against it - and your observations are the only ones to be right, because... you run a big room.
And everyone who makes other observations than you must be wrong, because... you run a big room
And even tried different light sources at some point!
Thats broscience at its finest.

Did you read the studies linked on the last three pages?

Maybe you could just stop posting pictures, being theatrical and just aggresive.
If you're satisfied with the outcome from your LED grows, I'm the last person to question that.
But you don't have to state it over and over again.

If youre not able to respect different opinions/science, just leave the discussion.

Science has been on my side this entire time. What the fuck are you actually even talking about? Please show me these “papers”. Cannabinoid testing in led vs hid has been argued in both directions. But more often than not, leds win.

LED vs HPS – Mammoth Lighting

HPS vs. LED - cannabinoid trials. We get asked a lot - on why we increased the blue % (+ far red) in our new spectrum…read along. 📖 ⁣⁣⁣⁣First - One thing we have spent a lot of time educating on is how cannabis yield and light intensity are linear when your environment is dialed in. That is why...

mammothlighting.com

[Case Study] Swell Farms HPS vs. LED Grow Lights - California LightWorks

Read how Swell Farms put HPS lights up against their LED grow lights and what they learned. Total THC percentage was over 24% higher under LED.

californialightworks.com

I took the USU science and technology of medical cannabis course. Im now in their advanced course. They do all their own research and testing and over and over leds produce higher cannabinoid and terpene tests.

Please show me any instance where science has not been on my side. I post photos along with scientific fact to back up my claims. Im trying to show why I feel Leds are the clear winner. This thread is about cmh vs hps vs led. My photos include my use of all three. Whats your problem here? It appears you arent reading whats in front of you. Im the one who is agressive? Have you read this thread? Ive been called a moron and assumptions galore about my experience. I posted what I have to make those assumptions disappear because Ive proven i have experience with all types of lights. Just because you are outgunned doesnt mean you get to claim im spouting broscience, im the one disputing it and explaining facts regarding what hps vs led light output actually is, measured, and what spectrum morphology has done. You have no idea what you are talking about. Im sorry my rooms made you feel small, but i could run a small tent and it wouldnt change my understanding of plant growth requirements. Posting the large room was simply to prove i have tons of experience running hps, only because i was told i “didnt put in the work or foot the bill” to do so. Hilarious how people make assumptions about internet strangers.

 

[snakedope]

As far as light is concerned, there is nothing more important than the light intensity hitting the leaf. This is measured in photons/ppfd. Etc

No, intensity is measured at source, not in space
You can't measure intensity in ppfd as it's source related not space related !
You don't seem to understabd such a simple thing.

Do you think like other growers that you need around 28/30°c with LED to get the better result possible ?
I try to rise the temp as much as I can without using too much energy but I get around 26/27°C at best in my flower room. The plants look really healthy but they have not started to produce flower yet at day 10 of 12/12, I have no idea what it will change. In veg they were looking happy with 20/21°C.

I had the best results when I put my leds tent at 28c +
The flowers seems more frosty, fake hairy frost but frostier no doubt.

Sunlight is free and creates a more satisfying product than both LED and HPS.

Actually I love the HIDs product better, although when u put a good solid clone outside its very hard to beat it I agree.

Ok, fine, you dont believe it. Im fine with that. But just know you are denying my ability to judge these things too. You can look back on my work here on icmag. Ive been a tester for breeders, bred my own genetics and run all the classics. You think I cant tell a drop in quality from my own smoke. You think i cant tell a dramatic change in flavor, smell and high from something ive known and cherished for over a decade in some cases? I have genetics ive held since 2011 or earlier. Ive tried the same cut under cmh, hid and led. How many people can say that?

I don't think that, I just think that no one especially growers will admit their bud is lower quality, but maybe it is high quality damn bro I can't know from pics...
That's why I'm saying I'm done judging pics and subjective smoke opinions
When we get together and blaze we put this smoke debate to rest.

I fully feel my best work in all departments is current and produced under my agrobars. I have no reason to say otherwise. If my best ever smoke came from hids i would say so. I used to be just like you about hids. I was the one arguing against going for leds! I was ignorant and afraid to go for something new when i felt like we were already so successful. But what most people do with leds is they try it a few times and never truly learn to tweak all cardinal parameters to fit their new lighting. Its like throwing a lambo motor into a car with bald tires, youre fucked if you dont know what is needed to go the distance. Damn near every unsuccessful led grow ive seen i can pick out their problem instantly.

So 90% of the growers don't know how to grow with led but crooked8 does ? You see now that it just sounds silly ?
I'm can fully understand that maybe I fucked my led grow, I'm not perfect and never claimed to be amazing grower, but what about all others ? Are they lame growers also ? And if so how come they got over 10 years of fire under such lame light setups before ? No logic in the "you need to adjust to led" claim, none, zero.

And regarding your photons being created by one bulb or lots of diodes, that argument is simply pointless. A photon, is a photon, is a photon, regardless of its source.

You are right, a photon is a photon, but, in light creation theres more to the equation, the production of photons per sec, and the total photons the exist in the space you are measuring
If a light source doesn't create enough light, enough fast, then it's not considered as high intensity source
Making enough light, not enough fast is not high intensity, not in surface measurements.
You will never find a scientist claim otherwise or a science paper that says you can add intensity by measuring a space and combining ppfd, don't be silly, this is not science, this is marketing schemes.

If were lighting a 5x5 area and we create a higher average ppfd for less money, we win.

Yes, thats why they are perfect to veg large spaces.

A plant cannot discern whether or not its one bulb or multiple diodes,

Actually it can, plants follow the light, it's known, they don't care if it's many or one source as long is has all principals covered (intensity and spectrum)

it only has success based on how much light its given.

Exectly, you give it low amounts of light intensity and stress, so it will grow healthy plant, but not so good oil and meds.

Leds produce WAY more intense light than hids collectively.

Yes, only collectively.
Which is good to create more light in more spaces, but the rating is always the same, so you do add more photons to the space, BUT AT THE SAME RATE !
RATE = intensity.

Stating that one diode cannot produce what a 1000w bulb can is obvious to everyone, it doesnt matter. Cannabis is demanding in every way. If we can pour on more photons, cannabis loves that but only if we can keep up with those photons with our feed, air flow and most importantly co2. Just like the car with a lambo motor and bald tires, well end up in a ditch if we dont fine tune every parameter.

I do not feel after all this time that its easier to grow with leds at all. Quite the opposite, people have had loads of success with hps/hids and are comfortable. Then when they try to go led they fuck up and cry about how leds suck, just like you. Growing with leds takes serious attention to detail and the ability to adapt to running a race car instead of an economy car. Its not something you can pick up first try and I admit that first hand.

Again excuses, LEDs require stuff we have never heard about, just crooked8 knows and a handful of other people apprantly.
LEDs don't suck, you just trying to do stuff with them that they are not suited for, and that's human mistake, not tech mistake
Your lambo analogy is great, your lambo engine is built for high speed and performance, or high intensity haha, don't use it to go slow (veg stuff)

As for your all blue purple weird comments about led bud. Anthocyanin producing strains are everywhere and produce color regardless of their light source. I chose a photo of a strain that goes purple. Here are photos of an og and karma sour d bx2 tester that stays green grown under leds so you can at least put that bullshit to bed….
View attachment 18807561 View attachment 18807562 View attachment 18807563 View attachment 18807564 View attachment 18807565
No purple/blue hues at all. Lime green, gassy funk for days w no foxtails….from led. I wont mention lab results bc you dont care about that. Which is probably the only thing youve said i agree with and heres why.

Nice, I like that, very good results look wise.

I literally know people who kief their samples before sending it off to lab it. And i mean add kief to the sample to hit crazy numbers. Ill be honest, we never hit 30%, ever. My highest lab ever was 27%. It was true and legitimate. So to answer your question as to why a bud that labs at 16% gets you higher than a 31% result, its based on one million+ things. Is it an honest result? Did someone get paid off? How about you? Are you in the same mood? Did you have any booze? Did you eat an edible too? So many factors involved that both lab testing and your personal smoke test honestly both get tossed out.

That's why I keep telling u nothing matters, just the smoke at the end.

You took a turn in your most recent reply and were more respectful which I appreciate. I do take it personally when people spew fake info as fact to people on here.

Fake info ? Lol

Icmag is near and dear to me, i learned SO much from people here. Please take a step back before you post to make sure youre not making assumptions about people or stating information that could be false. I feel like youre shooting from the hip quite a bit.

You started with the personal shit bro don't forget, I just took the fight back to you
I have no interest in taking shit into personal level cuz this is a tech debate
Be on point and I guarantee I will be also.

 

[snakedope]

Science has been on my side this entire time. What the fuck are you actually even talking about? Please show me these “papers”. Cannabinoid testing in led vs hid has been argued in both directions. But more often than not, leds win.

LED vs HPS – Mammoth Lighting

HPS vs. LED - cannabinoid trials. We get asked a lot - on why we increased the blue % (+ far red) in our new spectrum…read along. 📖 ⁣⁣⁣⁣First - One thing we have spent a lot of time educating on is how cannabis yield and light intensity are linear when your environment is dialed in. That is why...

mammothlighting.com

[Case Study] Swell Farms HPS vs. LED Grow Lights - California LightWorks

Read how Swell Farms put HPS lights up against their LED grow lights and what they learned. Total THC percentage was over 24% higher under LED.

californialightworks.com

Yeah when led companies do tests LEDs always win we know that

I took the USU science and technology of medical cannabis course. Im now in their advanced course. They do all their own research and testing and over and over leds produce higher cannabinoid and terpene tests.

In real life smoking also or just on paper ?

Please show me any instance where science has not been on my side. I post photos along with scientific fact to back up my claims. Im trying to show why I feel Leds are the clear winner. This thread is about cmh vs hps vs led. My photos include my use of all three. Whats your problem here? It appears you arent reading whats in front of you. Im the one who is agressive? Have you read this thread? Ive been called a moron and assumptions galore about my experience. I posted what I have to make those assumptions disappear because Ive proven i have experience with all types of lights. Just because you are outgunned doesnt mean you get to claim im spouting broscience, im the one disputing it and explaining facts regarding what hps vs led light output actually is, measured, and what spectrum morphology has done. You have no idea what you are talking about. Im sorry my rooms made you feel small, but i could run a small tent and it wouldnt change my understanding of plant growth requirements. Posting the large room was simply to prove i have tons of experience running hps, only because i was told i “didnt put in the work or foot the bill” to do so. Hilarious how people make assumptions about internet strangers.

No one said you don't have the experience, well I did until u showed it, but it doesn't matter what u grew under if you fail to acknowledge basic science facts and basic difference in each tech and it's use
Other then that, all rest is your subjective opinion, not science.

 

[Broggemann]

Science has been on my side this entire time. What the fuck are you actually even talking about? Please show me these “papers”.

You can just scroll back if you didnt get it the first time, that's one of the great benefits a forum has over a chatroom.

https://mammothlighting.com/pages/led-vs-hps

https://californialightworks.com/blog/swell-farms-hps-vs-led-case-study/

You're linking marketing articles from LED light producers - are you trying to troll me?
Espescially the second link, you can't be serious.
To be fair, the first link does mention an actual study, and it indeed points out higher THC levels.
But that THC levels alone don't define quality, you don't have to take USU advanced medical cannabis courses to know that.

Im now in their advanced course. They do all their own research and testing and over and over leds produce higher cannabinoid and terpene tests.

So you're referring to studies that aren't even released to the public?
Did they tell you how science works yet?