Closed-Loop Concentrates Vacumn Temps and Times

[thcnology]

Hello All. This is my first time posting here, not new.. Im as Older as Overgrow Breeder Steve and BOG, I've just never posted. I
just recently got into concentrates, probably should have taken up golf. I dont know why maybe a second mid-life crisis or you can
just get old and bored growing plants and want to try something different? Or maybe when you get old you just want to still
be included in your family? Anyhow after reading plenty here and from lots of sources I thought a poll might be a good way to
delineate some of the questions that continue to pervade but few have a definitive answer. I understand the multitude of "variables"
of beginning product material/vacumnCFM/elevation/humidity/etc and thus the ambiguity of such a task within this supposed to be
simple pole. What Im really looking for is a baseline vacumn Temperature and Time to accordingly adjust end stability?

First and foremost this poll is only for "Closed-Loop" Oil makers. If your not using closed your probably wasting your money and
certainly putting yourself and everybody around you in a potentially dangerous situation. So if your not..yes I know you're all over
youtube and here and the other forums out there and I thank you for your flagship efforts and input I'm not bashing you but your
information is of very little value to me. This Pole is for Closed-Loop Hydrocarbon Extractors.

Plain and Simple it took me a long time to even think about getting into concentrates for the above reason alone. If the gas is not
recyclable its not feasable and besides that more than anything its just dangerous. I cant have stoned-monkeys open-blasting
flammable liquids around me and my family.

With that said my setup.. yes I sprang for it like a new Porsche at 66 (wife said I should have just bought a new truck, I like my
old truck just fine) recently purchased is an ExtractionTek LHBS1200 my vacumn oven is also a recently purchased AI 1.9 Cubic Foot.

So yes..Not the Best out there Im sure but I spent some time doing some research. Anyhow Good solid turn-key equipment for me to play with..everybody says I spent too much so if all you want to do is say that Im not interested..im not gonna be around forever my
safety is important to me. On top of that I want things simple enough a stoned-monkey could probably use this with some initial
proper instruction (My grandkids) I'm interested in shatter primarily just because they tell me its hardest to make.. but input on
all other forms wax crumble honeycomb sugar should all be included in this pole.

And Im not sure exactly being new to this site how I can setup this pole the proper way..Remember I'm old and stupid so if anybody or
the moderator could help me that would be great. Im looking for Temperatures and Time within the vacumn oven with an extraction exclusively from closed loop systems to establish a baseline by which any stoned-monkey(Me and My Grand-Kids together) could by trial and error accordingly adjust his or her material for end product stability.

That being said... even if with closed loop where we alleviate alot of variables.. many Variables Remain...

What type Closed Loop system do you use?

Does your system incorporate a dewaxing unit?

What Gas or mixtures of gas do you use?

What Vacumn Oven do you use?

What type/CFM Vacumn pump do you use?

What hints tips or tricks have you discovered?

Probably some other "variables" Im missing here..thats all i can think of at the moment, all help apreciated.

Thanks All

 

[hobb3s93]

everyone is prolly gna tell u to read forums on here to learn all that.

you might have better results sharing ur past experiences with ur cls and what you beleive your problems are.

the biggest variable to good concentrate is good starting material.
a closed loop aint gna turn outdoor black stuff into gold but it will make it more cost effective to extract based on being able to recover solvent.

 

[thcnology]

Hey Hobbs, thanks for the reply. Again Im looking for a poll...it says I cant? so help from the moderator?

 

[thcnology]

Obviously Im new, however my experience thus far has been nothing what like I see here in this forum. Im using a closed loop system with a heated water jacket and CO2 dewaxing system and I run straight instrument grade propane and even with what you refer to as close to outdoor "black stuff" you know the crap scraped off the ground..it comes out of the collection vessel perfect muffin and cooks at 102 for 70 hours and ends piss yellow clear but not shatter. More or less that laffytaffy snap and break. Now that of course was just practice material..so is it great great ending product NO. Ive just started. But when I have my usual great beginning material in a few months..im looking for more of a time and temp from only other closed looped guys that maybe running a similar system. Thanks

 

[Gray Wolf]

Hello All. This is my first time posting here, not new.. Im as Older as Overgrow Breeder Steve and BOG, I've just never posted. I
just recently got into concentrates, probably should have taken up golf. I dont know why maybe a second mid-life crisis or you can
just get old and bored growing plants and want to try something different? Or maybe when you get old you just want to still
be included in your family? Anyhow after reading plenty here and from lots of sources I thought a poll might be a good way to
delineate some of the questions that continue to pervade but few have a definitive answer. I understand the multitude of "variables"
of beginning product material/vacumnCFM/elevation/humidity/etc and thus the ambiguity of such a task within this supposed to be
simple pole. What Im really looking for is a baseline vacumn Temperature and Time to accordingly adjust end stability?

First and foremost this poll is only for "Closed-Loop" Oil makers. If your not using closed your probably wasting your money and
certainly putting yourself and everybody around you in a potentially dangerous situation. So if your not..yes I know you're all over
youtube and here and the other forums out there and I thank you for your flagship efforts and input I'm not bashing you but your
information is of very little value to me. This Pole is for Closed-Loop Hydrocarbon Extractors.

Plain and Simple it took me a long time to even think about getting into concentrates for the above reason alone. If the gas is not
recyclable its not feasable and besides that more than anything its just dangerous. I cant have stoned-monkeys open-blasting
flammable liquids around me and my family.

With that said my setup.. yes I sprang for it like a new Porsche at 66 (wife said I should have just bought a new truck, I like my
old truck just fine) recently purchased is an ExtractionTek LHBS1200 my vacumn oven is also a recently purchased AI 1.9 Cubic Foot.

So yes..Not the Best out there Im sure but I spent some time doing some research. Anyhow Good solid turn-key equipment for me to play with..everybody says I spent too much so if all you want to do is say that Im not interested..im not gonna be around forever my
safety is important to me. On top of that I want things simple enough a stoned-monkey could probably use this with some initial
proper instruction (My grandkids) I'm interested in shatter primarily just because they tell me its hardest to make.. but input on
all other forms wax crumble honeycomb sugar should all be included in this pole.

And Im not sure exactly being new to this site how I can setup this pole the proper way..Remember I'm old and stupid so if anybody or
the moderator could help me that would be great. Im looking for Temperatures and Time within the vacumn oven with an extraction exclusively from closed loop systems to establish a baseline by which any stoned-monkey(Me and My Grand-Kids together) could by trial and error accordingly adjust his or her material for end product stability.

That being said... even if with closed loop where we alleviate alot of variables.. many Variables Remain...

What type Closed Loop system do you use?

Terpenator or Lil Terp.

Does your system incorporate a dewaxing unit?

The Mk VIII does.

What Gas or mixtures of gas do you use?

n-Butane and mixes with n-Propane up to 50%.

What Vacumn Oven do you use?

Cascade TVO-2

What type/CFM Vacumn pump do you use?

Welch 2054 on our ovens. http://welchvacuum.com/collections/laboratory-vacuum-pumps/products/part-2054b-01

What hints tips or tricks have you discovered?

Too many to reel off. You will get more response with more direct questions, which will pop into your mind as you read the various threads on the subject.

Probably some other "variables" Im missing here..thats all i can think of at the moment, all help apreciated.

Thanks All

If you are using the Caresaver recovery pump, it isn't oil less.

 

[thcnology]

Thanks GW for the reply. I have read about the Caresaver not being oilless. Also from what Ive read some of the other options for recovery would be alot more expensive. So maybe its middle of the road..Trade offs with just about anything...You give a little to get a little so to speak. Ive seen some things posted from you and someone else about filters as well to help prevent issues. So far I cant say that Im really having any big problems with this "new" machine...but as time goes on and potentially this caresaver begins to wear the list could potentially grow. Anyhow when I get to doing some more runs Ill take some pics and post my setup and what im experiencing thus far..for others to see. There are no other real comprehensive threads on this particular machine anywhere on the net that I have found? So far I'm impressed.

GW we have similar setups..What Temps and Vac Times for shatter do you seem to average?

Green Dot had something on here Im guessing maybe at one time? Im fairly sure hes beenusing this ETS for awhile now. But guessings he was banned and when I search for his posts not much comes up..am I missing alot from him? if so did anybody potentially save anything?

 

[thcnology]

Also GW. You are using a very expensive pump. I went middle of the road with the AI oven and selected the EasyVac 9Cfm 2-stage.

So I guess for a specific question is there anything you or anybody else here recommends as far as specific filters for both this Caresaver recovery and this EasyVac purge that I should purchase immediately to prolong the life of these pumps and avoid potential contaminants in my end-product?

As time goes on ill probably elect to go with something a little more robust but for now I'd like to try and work with what I have. Thanks Again

 

[thcnology]

Just some notes I've been taking...

These come from a variety of sources do much respect and all credit due.

Super golden Light 70 hours at 102 degrees. Darker 75-80 hours at 104 degrees.

Our extraction method ensures the same care for quality as our growing practices. We freeze the

cannabis to preserve its flavor and medicinal qualities and then run the full plant, in strain-

specific batches, through a closed loop extractor. After reclaiming the gases used in the

process, we purge the product of any residual gas particles for 12-72 hours, or even longer if

necessary. Stay tuned through the year as we move towards live plant resin extracts.

Parker C-082 Filter
Parker 303 Filter

Originally Posted by surfguy1936 View Post
hey Gray wolf so i have the C-082 filter already on my recovery pump, so with that would i be

able to clean out the tank if i just run it through. Because I have seen liquid go through the

little glass screen on it a couple times
Any of the filter dryers will work, if they are large enough and aren't already saturated. We use

an E-032 as an inlet guard for the pump and add another filter to dry out the butane.

The 082 will work until it gets saturated with water. I use the 032 for pump protection, and

would use the largest that I could accommodate for drying and periodically dry it out in a 200F

oven as needed.

We actually have a Robinair refrigerant pump and filter dryer, which pumps in a circle from the

tank, through the filter dryer, and back to the tank. It has a replaceable element, which can be

baked out to regenerate.

we used a mixed gas....

the heating vessel circulates water at 90 degrees and my recovery tank is just in an ice water

bucket. about a 45 min full recovery time for 4.5# of mixed gas
You might try dropping the 90F to 80/85F. Amazingly, the color starts at about that level.

We use 85F and get light extracts, but much more and they darken.

1. Always let sit in your oven for 30 minutes prior to pulling a vacuum. This will greatly reduce

the muffining effect and your oils will use gravity to make its own thin film.

2. Time > Temperature. Set that shit at 103, let run for 6-8 hours. Then release vacuum and let

set for 30 minutes. Take it out and flip it. Repeat. Patty flipping is just common sense for the

most part. You really don't have to go 'thin film' necessarily if you do this properly. Once your

patty stops looking like the toxic avenger and those oil on water rainbow bubbles stop bliping,

your shit is pretty much done. An extra 30 min for good measures.

3. Fabricate a dry ice sleeve around your column of your closed loop. -40c will help freeze some

plant fats and waxes (waxy membrane around trich head) and not allow them to pass through your

screen. Too much plant fat and wax will make your shatter (autobudder) over a short period of

time.

4. Do not touch your shatter with your oily ass fingers. This will cause autobuddering. Do not

fold in more than once to make a patty, or you will increase your chance of autobuddering.

5. Use a buchner funnel/lab filter and passive vacuum system to completely dewax your oils. You

have to either keep adding butane or bury the funnel in dry ice to keep your tane chilled -40c.

If you smell the wax you get off of using dual solvent winterizing process, you will notice it

smells better than your oil. If you use a single solvent for dewaxing, hte wax has no smell;

therefore, full terpene retention in the oils. Use a buchner funnel only if you want 100% wax

free shatter. You can get a good 80% out by using dry ice and a 25micron screen. You can't see

how much wax is present in your shatter until you dewax it You typically lose about 15% yield

doing this.. but if youre a connoisseur, i say go for it.

6. Stop smoking wax. Seriously. You are smoking a bunch of unnecessary plant materials in your

product. The stuff that makes you feel like you got kicked in the chest... thats WAX.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8pIiq1t5fU

7. Never turn your vacuum pump off while in the oven. Yes AI ovens have a vac-lock mechanism but

the problem is that as they hydrocarbons boil out of the oil, they release a very very very small

fraction of vacuum in your oven; thus, slowing down the purge; thus requiring you to add more

heat and longer times that make your oils dark. You simply get more action by leaving the pump

running throughout the whole purging process. This will yield you lighter oils.

8. Never let your collection vessel exceed 80degrees F when recovering your tane. Always leave

about 5% gas in your collection vessel to act as a carrier solvent for your oils. This will speed

up the cleaning and scraping times, but will lose you 5% gas (a few bucks) but lets face it..

time is money.

9. Learn how to calibrate your AI oven. It came with the instruction manual and the guys at AI

will gladly assist you in breaking down the PV/SV and what it means to your oils.

10. Safety first. Gas mask, lab coat, gloves? check. walk in lab hood that pulls 2700cfm? check.

Proper fire suppression and explosion proof equipment? check. Do not cut corners here. Lots of

people die OVER SOME WEED because they want to make money


Originally Posted by Roji View Post
Im starting to question the need for such industrial machines for these relatively sensitive procedures we do . Is there any reason we need such bulky and heavy duty units? I'm wondering if a top load plain old vacuum chamber with stackable heated shelves fitted inside would be functionally similar to these new fancy highly technical ovens for a fraction of the cost. My ten gallon vac chamber has 1.33 cubic feet. Decent amount of room.
Am I missing something here? Are heated sides really necessary after we have gone to heated shelving?
Why are you even asking rhetorically?

KISS:

Simplest single walled box with front facing door that can hold a vacuum without imploding, there's no high heat from radiant heaters to weaken it... a full size plexiglass window for a door, like the top of a stock pot vacuum chamber, would be slick.

Several aluminum shelves with adhesive backed, full coverage silicone heaters stuck to the bottoms (two or three hundred watts per shelf should be more than enough imo)

PID temperature controllers with solid state relays for each heater in a little external box

The gauge and valve 'manifold' composed of a couple of cross connectors can also be completely external with just one hole in the chamber for the vacuum plumbing entrance, or two if you want to backfill with nitrogen, etc.

Silicone heat mats, each with it's own sensor and PID controller. The only way to get perfect tracking is to directly monitor the oil temperature, IR temperature sensors should do, since this is a low temperature specific oven. They start at about $150 each,

http://www.omega.com/subsection/fixe...ermometer.html

Just mount a sensor pointed down above each heat mat.

If you place soft padding/insulation under each heat mat, the mat will tend to conform to the uneven (concave) outside, bottom surface of many Pyrex dishes. I doubt you'll find any dishes that are perfectly flat on the bottom, and it would be necessary to ensure good contact with a solid heated shelf.

For the silicone heat mats (they're called heaters,) 1.25 watt per square inch is plenty, and should be able to withstand full power in free air. Here's a Temperature versus Wattage in fiberglass heaters graph, http://www.omega.com/toc_asp/framese...ro_flexheaters

The 1.25's are the SRP Series from Briskheat, Briskheat sells direct, Grainger's also carries them, so does this place,

http://www.oemheaters.com/c-541-srp-...-wsq-inch.aspx


That, and the box and you're good to go. The window should be large enough to allow full viewing of all levels so you can adjust the action on the fly...


Of course you can also toss your oil on parchment in there, right on the heat mat. You can even mix Pyrex and parchment, why is radiant heat still even being considered?

Water Jacket Temp 85 degrees

102 degree Heat Mat BestVac

We pull at 50% clear to 100% milky, usually 12-7 days immature.

All rh levels are below 20%

also, pulling a hard vac really quick can often result in waxing. best to pull partial vacs and let the butane escape slowly. if anything, slow and steady is the better way.

So I have some facts not after digging. We have been speaking frequently with the owner of a WA company that works very closely with extracted.

The gas depends on the material. For example propane is used for older cure material. When propane is used the vibrant colors and light terpenes are retained because of the ultra low boiling point of the solvent.

They run Extraction Tek systems and csresavers. Way over priced systems they told me each set up cost 25 grand. The do not use tamesiums

They use very large pumps to bring purge times way down.

To achieve the muffin the use a warm water circulator around the pot during propane extractions and pull a super hard vac. This and a few other steps will yield the stable muffin.

We use an ETS just like xtracted, FOA, lunchbox, etc. The prepurge muffin is just hard vacuum while the collection pot is cooling after a hot water circ. The pour prepurge is accomplished one way by heating you hot water circ to 90-100F...The oil will be a VERY low residual solvent syrup that hardens immediately. I don't like the pour because you can get oil all over the pot and spend precious extraction time scraping (potentially causing nucleation).

They also do propane butane blends. It has a lot to do with how you handle and prep your material as well. We have broken the code and now producing the same caliber oil as xtracted good luck everyone.

I read 8 pages of this post, no one mentioned that shatter comes from non agatated oil. If you scrape then scrape razor, then scrape again etc, you get butter. If you blast into Pyrex let it purge to a point where it's sludge, then with a flexible spatula scrape corners and whole pan with as few smooth strokes as possible. Then let gravity run the oil from spatula to parchment , you can guide it with a razor. Once it is on parchment let it sit in oven for 30 before pulling vac. I start at 95deg Fahrenheit, and each flip I go up 1degree. After flip let sit for 20-30 before vac again. After a few days I usually end up with solid shatter. If warmed up a bit it can be flexible...no idea why pics won't post but hopefully this helps a few people...yes I don't have many posts on here...but that's cuz I really don't care to have one more thing to keep up with.

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=289808&highlight=propane+shatter&page=3

I've been running an ETS with 99% pure propane from General Air out of Dillon, CO for a little over 6 months now, and I find that the yields are lower, but the product is far lighter when pulling it out. I've been purging at temperatures in the 80's and have had some awesome results, but this comes after whipping the material at 125 degrees until it turns creamy. Toss it in the 80ish degree oven, and it muffins up and turns to a glorious crumble. My best crumble test result was 96.3% THCA from some Blue Dream trim. For some reason, though, even though when I first pull it out of the collection vat and of the oven it smells great, when it comes to dabbing it, it leaves room to be desired as far as terps is concerned. Maybe they're evaporating when I'm whipping at 125?

If this same whipped material is purged at 110ish or higher, I've found it makes the material a more earwaxy material, rather than a flakey crumble. A small bit of brightness seems to be compromised when making it the wax instead.

I've tried to make shatter with propane as well, and have had decent luck. Without whipping, I've purged the hash at around 100 degrees, and gotten some rather stable and bright shatter. The issue for me has been that the shatter I make with propane auto-budders HARD after about 2-3 weeks. Had some dispensaries call and complain of this, though the auto-budder is still rather tasty. Highest test result with propane shatter was a 97.9% THCA 303 Kush.

I've thought about taking my once-run material and steam distilling it for remaining terps, then adding it to the material while I'm whipping it. Would that work with material that's already been run? Sometimes the cannabis still smells good when I'm unloading the column, so I've gotta guess there's still some goodness in there.

Tried doing some live-resin with propane, had KILLER results. Some Island Sweet Skunk for Hashish House in Pueblo turned out to be a yellow-wet-sand look, and had the best terp profile of anything I've ever blasted with the ETS. I guess they're selling it 100/g out here in CO :/ Did a shorter soak, no whipping, and a purge at about 85 degrees. About to start playing with another several loads of live resin from them this morning, any advice?

The ETS is capable of holding pressures of up to 300psi, and I've seen it get as high as 160 when I'm using it. I heat my propane tank before I release it for a soak, I've tried soaks for anywhere from 5 to 30 minutes, and I still get awesome colors. I think the collection pot is an 8", pretty tall and tough to get into.

Dispensaries like the PHO because it's bright and smelly, making it easy to sell.

Try this method for shatter, and see if never exposing it to vacuum deeper than -29.5" Hg solves the waxing up problem.

Thin film, 110-115F @ down to, but no lower than -29.5" Hg. Purge until the boiling slows to a crawl, only takes about forty-five minutes to an hour with a few grams. I raise and lower the muffin a couple of times at the beginning.

My opinion is taking the vacuum below the boiling points of the many of the oils components is disrupting the matrix.

Yeah, that's why we say wax sucks, smells good just sitting there, but dabbed it's just not there anymore...

Thanks for sharing about the propane results, I don't think I've seen any PHO at my local MMJ dispensaries. At the moment nobody in SoCal is denying what they're selling is BHO, so I don't know why they wouldn't brag about it being PHO if it was...

Btw, I came home from the Cannabis Cup with three shatters from Paper Planes, and now the third is also turning to wax...dudes get your definitions correct, you're confusing solidity with stability, here's a pic, they were all originally in parchment folds where they deteriorated, and now continue to deteriorate... I actually paid for this...why I really want to be able to continue on making my own oil for my own personal use.

The fastest way that I've found to purge propane or butane, is for the surface tension of the puddle to be low enough for the gas molecules to readily escape from strike angles shallower than 90 degrees. With the strains we tes
ted, that temperature fell somewhere around 110/115F.

Not to be confused with the oven temperature setting, as it was measured at the puddle surface itself.

The terpenes we are targeting are well below their boiling points, but sublimating off, faster under vacuum, so we want to limit how long we pump.

Heat also changes the nature of some terpenes, through processes like decarboxylation and oxidation, so another reason to minimize how much and for how long.

It is common to distribute a mixture of propane (C3H8) and butane (C4H10) (LPG) for combustion purposes.

Propane is more suited to colder environments since it evaporates at -44oF (-42oC) at atmospheric pressure. Butane evaporates at 33oF (0.6 oC) at atmospheric pressure.

The vapor pressure of a mixture of the two products are indicated in the table below:

Vapor Pressure (psig)
Mixture Propane (C3H8)
(%) 100 70 50 30 0
Butane (C4H10)
(%) 0 30 50 70 100
Temperature
(oF) -44 0 0 0 0 0
-30 6.8 0 0 0 0
-20 11.5 4.7 0 0 0
-10 17.5 9 3.5 0 0
0 24.5 15 7.6 2.3 0
10 34 20.5 12.3 5.9 0
20 42 28 17.8 10.2 0
30 53 36.5 24.5 15.4 0
40 65 46 32.4 21.5 3.1
50 78 56 41 28.5 6.9
60 93 68 50 36.5 11.5
70 110 82 61 45 17
80 128 96 74 54 23
90 150 114 88 66 30
100 177 134 104 79 38
110 204 158 122 93 47
1 psi (lb/in2) = 144 psf (lbf/ft2) = 6,894.8 Pa (N/m2) = 6.895x10-3 N/mm2 = 6.895x10-2 bar
Note that the evaporation temperature is not the only parameter that influences on evaporation of the propane butane mixture. Evaporation requires heat and if the heat transferred to the liquid gas is limited - the liquid cools down and the evaporation is reduced.

Larger consumers requires heat exchangers fueled with hot water, electric heater or combustion of the propane butane mix itself to supply the evaporation heat.
Smaller consumers requires propane butane mix containers with efficient heat transfer from the surroundings. By example - composite containers provides less heat transfer compared to steel containers and may cause problems at lower surroundings temperatures.

 

[snake11]

Ditch the caresaver. There are better options out there.

 

[Gray Wolf]

Thanks GW for the reply. I have read about the Caresaver not being oilless. Also from what Ive read some of the other options for recovery would be alot more expensive. So maybe its middle of the road..Trade offs with just about anything...You give a little to get a little so to speak.

The Caresaver isn't cheap, so I suppose it is how we define a lot and incremental value added brother T.

Incremental value in this case, is no pump oil carryover into the butane you will be using to extract the next load of oil.

How much is too much? Why have any with other options available?

As you note, often we compromise for what we can get, but I'm unwilling to compromise on adding any amount of pump oil into my pharmaceutical extractions, because there are options, and compared to the overall investment, don't appear show stoppers from my perspective.

Ive seen some things posted from you and someone else about filters as well to help prevent issues. So far I cant say that Im really having any big problems with this "new" machine...but as time goes on and potentially this caresaver begins to wear the list could potentially grow.

The issue with the Caresaver isn't wear, it is design and the problem isn't with what happens to the pump itself, it is what makes it past its oil separator and into the recovered butane stream.

If you want to put a filter downstream of your Caresaver, as we did the likewise non oil free CM-EP that we tested, I suggest that you contact Isaac at VICI Metronics for a suitable polishing filter.

He is their engineer that Skunk Pharm Research is working with on joint research.

http://www.vici.com/contact/contact_met.php

Anyhow when I get to doing some more runs Ill take some pics and post my setup and what im experiencing thus far..for others to see. There are no other real comprehensive threads on this particular machine anywhere on the net that I have found? So far I'm impressed.

GW we have similar setups..What Temps and Vac Times for shatter do you seem to average?

A big open ended question, because besides running small quantities for my own personal use using my original prototype Mk III Terpenator, and finishing in what ever oven is available at the pharm, I support WW's commercial system installations, extracting more than half a pound of oil per run and using various ovens.

How I run it depends on whether I plan to winterize with ethanol afterwards.

I typically remove the material from the Mk III as cotton candy shatter, which takes about five minutes at the end of the cycle to fluff up into extremely thin filmed foam and harden using high vacuum, holding the collection pot under 85F.

I either wash it out with warm ethanol, or freeze the cotton candy 30 minutes and reduce to dust with a whisk, which I pour onto parchment or PTFE film, and spread in a thin layer.

I filter, freeze, filter the ethanol solutions and reduce to a heavy syrup using evaporation in a Pyrex casserole dish, before putting it in a 120F oven at full vacuum until vacuum levels reach about 750 torr/~29.5" Hg, at which time I vent enough nitrogen to keep the pressure above 750 torr/~29.5" hg vacuum and assist in final purge.

I run it as long as it takes to stop bubbling at 120F, which is highly dependent on film thickness.

I then cover it and let it air and harden, before warming it enough to scrape and jar the shatter.

For non winterized shatter, I place parchment tray with thin film of pulverized cotton candy dust that into the 115F oven with no vacuum until it starts to melt, at which I pull vacuum until it boils vigorously, and then hold the vacuum at that level until it calms down.

At that point, I lower the vacuum level further until it again boils vigorously, and repeat until the vigorous boil has ceased.

I remove it from the oven and stick it in the freezer until I can break it free from the parchment or PTFE film, and flip it.

I return it to the 115F oven and once it starts to melt again, I increment up the vacuum again until boiling calms.

Repeat as necessary until vacuum levels climb above about 750 torr/~29.5" Hg, and vent nitrogen to keep vacuum level from lowering further.

When it stops bubbling at ~115F, back fill oven with nitrogen and remove patty to cool.

Time varies from under an hour, to over 8 hours, depending on lot size, so an average would fall with lies, damn lies, and statics.

Green Dot had something on here Im guessing maybe at one time? Im fairly sure hes beenusing this ETS for awhile now. But guessings he was banned and when I search for his posts not much comes up..am I missing alot from him? if so did anybody potentially save anything?

In blue.

 

[Gray Wolf]

Also GW. You are using a very expensive pump. I went middle of the road with the AI oven and selected the EasyVac 9Cfm 2-stage.

So I guess for a specific question is there anything you or anybody else here recommends as far as specific filters for both this Caresaver recovery and this EasyVac purge that I should purchase immediately to prolong the life of these pumps and avoid potential contaminants in my end-product?

As time goes on ill probably elect to go with something a little more robust but for now I'd like to try and work with what I have. Thanks Again

True, chemically rated diaphragm pumps are more expensive than AC sliding vane vacuum pumps, but they don't contaminate the exhaust so it is easier to cold trap monoterpenes.

You also don't have to worry about flooding their gear boxes with solvent and wiping them out.

Everything is a matter of degrees. As long as you are just finishing off bho extractions, I would just change the pump oil regularly and call it good.

On the other end of the spectrum, if you are cold boiling solvents, you have a serious problem with a sliding vane vacuum pump like the Easy Vac.

Simple filters don't stop solvent vapor, and you can add a dry ice or liquid N2 cooled fore trap to catch the solvent before it reaches our pump, but it limits your performance at the oven itself.

You also don't need the vacuum levels a two stage pump is capable of, so be attentive to sublimating away target components at room temperature and high vacuum.

As far as the Caresaver, we get sample sized filters from VICI Metronics for under $250 each, which will require regular replacement as it loads, but which will adequately scrub the discharge before it reaches your storage tank.

 

[thcnology]

Snake.. "ditch the caresaver". Okay what do you recommend? I think ETS uses or went with the Caresaver because its one of the only ones "rated" for Hydrocarbons. What exactly that means is beyod me..Im again new to all of this..but I believe I read many commercial buildings their HVACs run on Propane or Hydrocarbons? And thats really what these Caresavers are intended for?? So NOT Pharmaceutical Grade Extractions.

 

[thcnology]

GW thanks I will get with Isaac at VICI next week for a downstream filter as a temporary patch. I take it I should probably get an upstream filter as well… what’s going IN to the Caresaver to prolong any internal issues within the Caresaver itself, which could in turn potentially create or at least compound the failures downstream? With these type of products that people ingest it would seem to me redundancy is better.. we can never be too safe. I don't want any contaminants in there. Seems to me ETS should be pre-fitting these Caresavers with filters if they know this is or can be a potential problem or they should be using an entirely different recovery pump? Likely a different recovery pump would cause them to lose their “certification”.

 

[SkyHighLer]

Before someone even says it harsher, when Rickys Bong pointed out here at ICMAG Forums the Caresaver wasn't actually oilless, it was dropped like the proverbial hot cakes. I think we all were assuming it had been abandoned by all the CLS vendors by now, that you are now showing up with one is extremely disappointing to say the least. GW only referenced the filter because he's a common sense dude who understands enough about human nature to figure you're probably going to go on using it at least until you come around to biting the bullet and replace it. Most everyone here would love the option to use the Caresaver, but instead have gone with any and all possible oilless substitutes, those are just now having their reliability problems worked through, i.e. the CPS TR21 which was working out ok, and then the CPS TRS21 which seems to have a factory seal defect(s,) and hopefully the CMEP-OL which is now being given a torture test by GW and company.

Hope that helps, I'm sure other's will pitch in with the details.

Oh, and if I were you, I wouldn't even be trying to remain cool about it, I'd be shouting at the guy who sold it to me to take it back.

 

[thcnology]

Thanks for the easy letdown from SkyHighler..well to say Im disappointed in this Caresaver if its avoided like the plague around here is an understatement. The fact that I just bought this and now am thinking about adding filters to patch it up as a temporary bandaid..? Yes that is unsettling to say the least. Never ceases to amaze what the Man will approve and certify as safe and then what they designate as unsafe..that’s an entirely different subject but it definitely relates to this case in point. I will talk to ETS about it again, I mentioned it before I bought it matter of fact when I was there in Denver. When I think back they may have glossed over the question or dismissed as irrelevant. However I will need some solid evidence “3rd party tests” of the contaminants it causes and a worked through candidate for potential replacement. Again though this will probably cause them to lose their “certification” so I may be wasting my breath.

 

[gholladay]

Hello All. This is my first time posting here, not new.. Im as Older as Overgrow Breeder Steve and BOG, I've just never posted. I
just recently got into concentrates, probably should have taken up golf. I dont know why maybe a second mid-life crisis or you can
just get old and bored growing plants and want to try something different? Or maybe when you get old you just want to still
be included in your family? Anyhow after reading plenty here and from lots of sources I thought a poll might be a good way to
delineate some of the questions that continue to pervade but few have a definitive answer. I understand the multitude of "variables"
of beginning product material/vacumnCFM/elevation/humidity/etc and thus the ambiguity of such a task within this supposed to be
simple pole. What Im really looking for is a baseline vacumn Temperature and Time to accordingly adjust end stability?

First and foremost this poll is only for "Closed-Loop" Oil makers. If your not using closed your probably wasting your money and
certainly putting yourself and everybody around you in a potentially dangerous situation. So if your not..yes I know you're all over
youtube and here and the other forums out there and I thank you for your flagship efforts and input I'm not bashing you but your
information is of very little value to me. This Pole is for Closed-Loop Hydrocarbon Extractors.

Plain and Simple it took me a long time to even think about getting into concentrates for the above reason alone. If the gas is not
recyclable its not feasable and besides that more than anything its just dangerous. I cant have stoned-monkeys open-blasting
flammable liquids around me and my family.

With that said my setup.. yes I sprang for it like a new Porsche at 66 (wife said I should have just bought a new truck, I like my
old truck just fine) recently purchased is an ExtractionTek LHBS1200 my vacumn oven is also a recently purchased AI 1.9 Cubic Foot.

So yes..Not the Best out there Im sure but I spent some time doing some research. Anyhow Good solid turn-key equipment for me to play with..everybody says I spent too much so if all you want to do is say that Im not interested..im not gonna be around forever my
safety is important to me. On top of that I want things simple enough a stoned-monkey could probably use this with some initial
proper instruction (My grandkids) I'm interested in shatter primarily just because they tell me its hardest to make.. but input on
all other forms wax crumble honeycomb sugar should all be included in this pole.

And Im not sure exactly being new to this site how I can setup this pole the proper way..Remember I'm old and stupid so if anybody or
the moderator could help me that would be great. Im looking for Temperatures and Time within the vacumn oven with an extraction exclusively from closed loop systems to establish a baseline by which any stoned-monkey(Me and My Grand-Kids together) could by trial and error accordingly adjust his or her material for end product stability.

That being said... even if with closed loop where we alleviate alot of variables.. many Variables Remain...

What type Closed Loop system do you use?
Terpp MKIVc

Does your system incorporate a dewaxing unit?
No

What Gas or mixtures of gas do you use?
Straight distilled n-butane or butane/propane blend

What Vacumn Oven do you use?
Cascade tek TVO-5

What type/CFM Vacumn pump do you use?
CPS 6 cfm high vac pump

What hints tips or tricks have you discovered?
Read the forums

Probably some other "variables" Im missing here..thats all i can think of at the moment, all help apreciated.

Thanks All

GH

 

[Gray Wolf]

GW thanks I will get with Isaac at VICI next week for a downstream filter as a temporary patch. I take it I should probably get an upstream filter as well… what’s going IN to the Caresaver to prolong any internal issues within the Caresaver itself, which could in turn potentially create or at least compound the failures downstream? With these type of products that people ingest it would seem to me redundancy is better.. we can never be too safe. I don't want any contaminants in there. Seems to me ETS should be pre-fitting these Caresavers with filters if they know this is or can be a potential problem or they should be using an entirely different recovery pump? Likely a different recovery pump would cause them to lose their “certification”.

We typically use a 032 filter drier in front of our pumps to add some protection from droplets of liquid. We get ours from RSD refrigeration supply.

The Caresaver is certified for use with flammable refrigerants, which the lack of filters wouldn't change. Getting a pump not rated for flammable refrigerants by the fire marshals is problematic.

The Caresaver relies on an oil separator, which does remove most of it, and certainly meets the refrigeration recovery job that it was designed and is sold for.

I think it is a good point, that selling the Caresaver in a package with cannabis extraction equipment, does imply that it is suitable for that purpose.

The Caresavers are not unique in that regard, I've personally witnessed hawkers at hemp fest events promoting Appion G-5's as suitable, so that leads us to the real core of the problem, and that is failure to fully inform the buyer, so that they could make an adult decision.

As noted, thankfully there are certified alternatives like the Haskel, which is oil less and explosion proof. They love us enough to redesign their 59025-3 to EXT-420-2 configurations, specifically for our application, and continue to work with us to improve their product.

We are, and will continue to root for the new certified CMEP-OL which does meet our requirements and is currently putting in hours in the field, to see how it stands up with various operators, systems, and with time. So far it has performed without incident and moved to a third lab for further testing yesterday.

My two Appion's did a fine job, but aren't rated for flammable refrigerants, and Appion made it abundantly clear that they want no part of our industry, so I would suggest obliging them by eschewing their products.

CPS loves us enough to spin off the TRS-21 "sparkless", but though safer, it isn't certified for flammable refrigerants either, and they are presently struggling with infant mortality seal failures.

I'm confident they will solve their quality issues, and await them doing so. Taking the next step to a system certified for flammable use, would be a good thing as well.

Lastly, I am aware of a US company currently running a test sled that so far has proven both promising and impressive. We are scheduled to test it as well, once they purdy it up some for field testing.

 

[snake11]

Snake.. "ditch the caresaver". Okay what do you recommend? I think ETS uses or went with the Caresaver because its one of the only ones "rated" for Hydrocarbons. What exactly that means is beyod me..Im again new to all of this..but I believe I read many commercial buildings their HVACs run on Propane or Hydrocarbons? And thats really what these Caresavers are intended for?? So NOT Pharmaceutical Grade Extractions.

Cmepol seems like it is getting fair reviews and is rated. TRs-21 is "sparkless" but there have been issues with seals and misleading statements. Appion is not rated but better then a caresaver. ETS uses caresavers because the owner Matthew is the only usa distributor for caresaver. When ets first came out the caresaver was the only rated pump but now there are better options. He makes a lot by pushing those pumps over others.

 

[thcnology]

GW thanks again. I don’t see here how Im supposed to be add you “rep”? I tend to ask a lot of open-ended questions as I seem to get better results without just those Yes or No’s. I tend to think in what-ifs and hypotheticals from many years in the tech industry. Ill try to be more direct.

A big open ended question, because besides running small quantities for my own personal use using my original prototype Mk III Terpenator, and finishing in what ever oven is available at the pharm, I support WW's commercial system installations, extracting more than half a pound of oil per run and using various ovens.

How I run it depends on whether I plan to winterize with ethanol afterwards.

Before I get too far on this. What prompts you to decide to winterize with Ethanol or Not? I was under the impression that with closed loop and a “proper recovery pump (which I may not have with this Caresaver) that winterizing with Ethanol was unnecessary. If I could elect to winterize with Ethanol or Not winterize... I would elect NOT just because of added costs and time.

I typically remove the material from the Mk III as cotton candy shatter, which takes about five minutes at the end of the cycle to fluff up into extremely thin filmed foam and harden using high vacuum, holding the collection pot under 85F.

I will post pics... Next Runs. I would say the extractl is something like Cotton Candy as you are referring too. Certainly not a liquid. I cannot see inside the Collection Vessel (there is no window) The Caresaver at the end of the run override switch pulls it down to around 25Hg I believe. Initially I was running my heated water jacket at 95..have since reduced this temperature to 85 as it seemed to me like the extract was a little “burnt” that’s not the best word. But that’s what it looked like from my uneducated opinion.

I either wash it out with warm ethanol, or freeze the cotton candy 30 minutes and reduce to dust with a whisk, which I pour onto parchment or PTFE film, and spread in a thin layer.

I filter, freeze, filter the ethanol solutions and reduce to a heavy syrup using evaporation in a Pyrex casserole dish, before putting it in a 120F oven at full vacuum until vacuum levels reach about 750 torr/~29.5" Hg, at which time I vent enough nitrogen to keep the pressure above 750 torr/~29.5" hg vacuum and assist in final purge.

I run it as long as it takes to stop bubbling at 120F, which is highly dependent on film thickness.

I then cover it and let it air and harden, before warming it enough to scrape and jar the shatter.

For non winterized shatter, I place parchment tray with thin film of pulverized cotton candy dust that into the 115F oven with no vacuum until it starts to melt, at which I pull vacuum until it boils vigorously, and then hold the vacuum at that level until it calms down.

This is something I have never heard of or read. I keep reading to mess with the extract as little as possible. Ive been pulling this “Cotton Candy” or I’ve heard it referred to as a “muffin” out of the Extraction Vessel and flattening it with a piece of heavy glass on the parchment. I try to get it maybe 1cm in thickness. And then just been popping in the Oven and running the vac pump constant for 70 hours. Always thinking there has got to be a better way.

At that point, I lower the vacuum level further until it again boils vigorously, and repeat until the vigorous boil has ceased.

I remove it from the oven and stick it in the freezer until I can break it free from the parchment or PTFE film, and flip it.

I return it to the 115F oven and once it starts to melt again, I increment up the vacuum again until boiling calms.

Repeat as necessary until vacuum levels climb above about 750 torr/~29.5" Hg, and vent nitrogen to keep vacuum level from lowering further.

I have not been backfilling Nitrogen but it seems like something easy enough to add and will do in the coming weeks. By doing this your allowing the vac pump to rest?

When it stops bubbling at ~115F, back fill oven with nitrogen and remove patty to cool.

Time varies from under an hour, to over 8 hours, depending on lot size, so an average would fall with lies, damn lies, and statics.

GW This is what really impresses me… 8 hours versus 70? Lies All Ill be Damned Lies… In your opinion is this directly related to the pulverization?

Until I hear back and I change a few things with the setup and my methods.. I’m probably going to leave this thread alone, unless anybody else wants to chime in? I have some things I need to do this next week above mentioned. When I get to the next runs. Ill document thoroughly and go from there. Thanks Again GW.

 

[Gray Wolf]

GW thanks again. I don’t see here how Im supposed to be add you “rep”? I tend to ask a lot of open-ended questions as I seem to get better results without just those Yes or No’s. I tend to think in what-ifs and hypotheticals from many years in the tech industry. Ill try to be more direct.

A big open ended question, because besides running small quantities for my own personal use using my original prototype Mk III Terpenator, and finishing in what ever oven is available at the pharm, I support WW's commercial system installations, extracting more than half a pound of oil per run and using various ovens.

How I run it depends on whether I plan to winterize with ethanol afterwards.

Before I get too far on this. What prompts you to decide to winterize with Ethanol or Not? I was under the impression that with closed loop and a “proper recovery pump (which I may not have with this Caresaver) that winterizing with Ethanol was unnecessary. If I could elect to winterize with Ethanol or Not winterize... I would elect NOT just because of added costs and time.

The material run and how it was run. Outdoor tends to have more plant waxes than indoor, and material that is extracted at subzero temperatures has less.

If I extract at -30C, I don't usually winterize.

I typically remove the material from the Mk III as cotton candy shatter, which takes about five minutes at the end of the cycle to fluff up into extremely thin filmed foam and harden using high vacuum, holding the collection pot under 85F.

I will post pics... Next Runs. I would say the extractl is something like Cotton Candy as you are referring too. Certainly not a liquid. I cannot see inside the Collection Vessel (there is no window) The Caresaver at the end of the run override switch pulls it down to around 25Hg I believe. Initially I was running my heated water jacket at 95..have since reduced this temperature to 85 as it seemed to me like the extract was a little “burnt” that’s not the best word. But that’s what it looked like from my uneducated opinion.

I either wash it out with warm ethanol, or freeze the cotton candy 30 minutes and reduce to dust with a whisk, which I pour onto parchment or PTFE film, and spread in a thin layer.

I filter, freeze, filter the ethanol solutions and reduce to a heavy syrup using evaporation in a Pyrex casserole dish, before putting it in a 120F oven at full vacuum until vacuum levels reach about 750 torr/~29.5" Hg, at which time I vent enough nitrogen to keep the pressure above 750 torr/~29.5" hg vacuum and assist in final purge.

I run it as long as it takes to stop bubbling at 120F, which is highly dependent on film thickness.

I then cover it and let it air and harden, before warming it enough to scrape and jar the shatter.

For non winterized shatter, I place parchment tray with thin film of pulverized cotton candy dust that into the 115F oven with no vacuum until it starts to melt, at which I pull vacuum until it boils vigorously, and then hold the vacuum at that level until it calms down.

This is something I have never heard of or read. I keep reading to mess with the extract as little as possible. Ive been pulling this “Cotton Candy” or I’ve heard it referred to as a “muffin” out of the Extraction Vessel and flattening it with a piece of heavy glass on the parchment. I try to get it maybe 1cm in thickness. And then just been popping in the Oven and running the vac pump constant for 70 hours. Always thinking there has got to be a better way.

At that point, I lower the vacuum level further until it again boils vigorously, and repeat until the vigorous boil has ceased.

I remove it from the oven and stick it in the freezer until I can break it free from the parchment or PTFE film, and flip it.

I return it to the 115F oven and once it starts to melt again, I increment up the vacuum again until boiling calms.

Repeat as necessary until vacuum levels climb above about 750 torr/~29.5" Hg, and vent nitrogen to keep vacuum level from lowering further.

I have not been backfilling Nitrogen but it seems like something easy enough to add and will do in the coming weeks. By doing this your allowing the vac pump to rest?

??? I turn off the recovery pump before backfilling, and turn on the vacuum pump immediately thereafter.

When it stops bubbling at ~115F, back fill oven with nitrogen and remove patty to cool.

Time varies from under an hour, to over 8 hours, depending on lot size, so an average would fall with lies, damn lies, and statics.

GW This is what really impresses me… 8 hours versus 70? Lies All Ill be Damned Lies… In your opinion is this directly related to the pulverization?

Until I hear back and I change a few things with the setup and my methods.. I’m probably going to leave this thread alone, unless anybody else wants to chime in? I have some things I need to do this next week above mentioned. When I get to the next runs. Ill document thoroughly and go from there. Thanks Again GW.

Some things that appear key to a good timely purge, are:

1.0 Start with clean butane. Remove the molecules longer than C-4 before extraction, because they are easier to remove from the butane, than the concentrate and drag things out.

1.1 A third party forensic lab analysis revealed molecules at the part per billionth level as long as C-18 in MO, which would be Octadecane, having a melting point of 30C/86F, and a boiling point of 317C/603F.

2.0 Keep thickness thin.

2.1 The heated molecules are charging around looking for a way to escape, bouncing off walls the bottom and the surface. Only the surface affords escape so the higher you can keep your surface area as a ratio/proportion of the whole, the more molecules will escape faster.

2.2 It is easier if lot sizes are also small.

3.0 Temperature control.

3.1 Is patty really the temperature on your dial?
3.2 How fast does the patty come up to temperature once in the oven? Are your shelves directly heated or do you have shelves with sufficient heat sink to hold their temperature while oven heats up after opening and closing the door to insert product?

4.0 Temperature.

4.1 The puddle must be hot enough to lower the surface tension sufficiently for the butane molecules to escape when they strike the surface, and to release the bubbles as they form.

5.0 Vacuum control. You must be able to pull low enough, without pulling too low, and sublimating away the cannabinoids.

5.1 Controlling vacuum by bleeding in nitrogen is a plus, as the nitrogen molecules add to pumping efficiency and help dislodge the butane molecules from the puddles enriched surface layer.

5.2 Removing the butane at 115F/120F at higher relative pressure/lower vacuum levels, before finishing off at lower relative pressure/higher vacuum levels, minimizes the amount of time your puddle is above the boiling points of the various monoterpenes under vacuum.

I've found that I end up with more of the monoterpenes left, if I maximize the butane's ability to escape, , while minimizing the amount of heat applied. Above around 120F, and we start to decarboxylate the material as well.

When I'm use actual boiling points, I'm referring to their actual boiling points under their relative pressures.

For instance, at 1000 microns, about -29.8" Hg, the ostensible boiling point of n-Butane is about ~-55C.

Here is handy conversion program, compliments of Skyhighler, to review the effects on boiling point, which puts things into ballpark perspective.

http://www.trimen.pl/witek/calculators/wrzenie.html