clone s degradeing?

[toohighmf]

My first bubba mom lasted 10 years. I have gifted a few cuts to people. now i don't have her anymore. asked friends for cuts. their always holding me back waiting to get their moms back to health before they can ever get me cuts. last time I grew some I noticed the vigor was gone. they yielded less, didn't smell as good and the complex flavor was near gone. Strain drift is a fact my man. sorry you dont agree. I have seen it with my own eyes and yes, the health of the mom helps, but I have taken kids of near dead moms that were 1st/2nd gen and they have been fine. in fact cloning resets genetics.

 

[DocLeaf]

If that's what you say, then starting with your statement,

"Clone lines become inherently weaker and less vigorous than the seed plant they descend from with age!"

Notice the "become" is highlighted and become means 100%. Like if someone said, "I became annoyed when that girl opened up her fat mouth and started talking". It doesn't mean I may not be annoyed, it means, I am annoyed. And then you say,

"which may reside within the plant tissue indefinitely ,,, cause everytime a plant is cut ,, we open up a fresh wound that can get infected!"

That doesn't mean that it will 100% get infected because if that plant was treated perfect and never was infected in the first place, then the clones wouldn't degrade and they will be the same. So your statement is saying one thing and conflicting with that. I don't know how much clearer I can get, not to disrespect.

1. Take a plant and clone it,, flower the seed plant and try and remember exactly what the essential oils and floral growth displayed were like. Then flower the clone. The clone will not show the same quality,, in essential oils and floral growth,, as the seed mother did.

This is an observational fact... in most strains,, where the mother and the clone are grown in exactly the same perfect environment.

2. Plant diseases, pathogens, and viruses may or may not inhabit the cloned plant tissue depending on the sterility of the environment they are grown and cloned in... obviously the more times they are cloned the higher the chance of either the mother plant or the clone getting infected.

Hope this helps and makes things a bit clearer ,, because I'm not really here to argue semantics with you

Peace out

 

[biteme]

this thread has argued everything from language semantics through genetic viabilitiy/deterioration of the clone without touching on an obvious potential problem. those cuts look like they were never properly rooted before they were planted. i've witnessed this in the past. things are particularly touchy when cloning using hydro methods and then planting into soil, imo. peace-biteme

 

[DocLeaf]

To put it another way... we can almost (99%) guarantee that the original parent plant that this Purple Kush clone first came from displayed much more vigor in growth, and yield.

Over the years this old clone has slowed right down,, even for a Kush,, slow to root,, and slow to grow.

... once rooted these old clones usually flower slightly quicker than the original parents did,, because as annuals they've been forced into an endless summer ,, and all they really want to do is flower

Some clones display this urge to flower more than others..

Hope this helps

 

[supervaca]

1. Take a plant and clone it,, flower the seed plant and try and remember exactly what the essential oils and floral growth displayed were like. Then flower the clone. The clone will not show the same quality,, in essential oils and floral growth,, as the seed mother did.

This is an observational fact... in most strains,, where the mother and the clone are grown in exactly the same perfect environment.

2. Plant diseases, pathogens, and viruses may or may not inhabit the cloned plant tissue depending on the sterility of the environment they are grown and cloned in... obviously the more times they are cloned the higher the chance of either the mother plant or the clone getting infected.

Hope this helps and makes things a bit clearer ,, because I'm not really here to argue semantics with you

Peace out

Yes , definetely in some strains, renewing mums is a must, as you pointed very well...
Growing pattern and "bouquet" , in the long run, is affected, too; I agree; but final harvest is more or less the same in cuantity; but maybe you need 1 more week/whatever in veg... I anyway think this is not degrading, is plant trying to adapt to its new situation (cloned, vegged, flowered;and back again; env. conditions, etc).
For sure DNA is made to renovate, etc, nature hasa "time bomb"on it, so as She doesn't allows too much inbreeding, so does with cloning, for sure.. but personally never reached to that "critical mass" ...
BUT if what you care is GENETIC (for breeding purposes,keeping,crossing,etc.), I usually think the older the mum, better ; ... but I can be wrong.. and if it is like this, I will truly appreciate an explanation.

DocLeaf expressed all I try to express in my previous post in my poor english very well; thanks for clarifying.

Clones from 'true-breeding' stock sometimes retain their vegetative conditions (e.g. Cheese)... but clones from 'unstable' stock show signs of wanting to pre-flower as they grow old,, after which the performance in growth and rooting is reduced.

Exactly

The quality and condition of a clone (and clone line) also hangs on the plants phyllotaxy ,, the specific branch that was cut to make the original clone (clone line),, and the way the clone was rooted.

I agree completely, this is the main point; care and prevention and a good method and controlled environment.
Almost nothing

 

[Snype]

1. Take a plant and clone it,, flower the seed plant and try and remember exactly what the essential oils and floral growth displayed were like. Then flower the clone. The clone will not show the same quality,, in essential oils and floral growth,, as the seed mother did.

This is an observational fact... in most strains,, where the mother and the clone are grown in exactly the same perfect environment.

2. Plant diseases, pathogens, and viruses may or may not inhabit the cloned plant tissue depending on the sterility of the environment they are grown and cloned in... obviously the more times they are cloned the higher the chance of either the mother plant or the clone getting infected.

Hope this helps and makes things a bit clearer ,, because I'm not really here to argue semantics with you

Peace out

I agree with most of what you are saying in this post as far as #2 but as far as #1, yes it is possible. I feel you though and am not taking this as an argument, it is a simple heathy debate and in my experience my clones are the same as the mom that they came from as long as it always stayed healthy with no stress or viruses. In all, I respect what you have done but that doesn't mean that I have to agree with you 100%. This subject will be debated for years to come.

 

[DocLeaf]

Question, reproach, and civilized debate is how we learn,, and move forward as humans. We can only base our answers on experience and example, and any knowledge we may have gained from them along the way

In our experience, (using Jack Herer as an example) , then the seeded plants always grew bigger, taller, stronger, and healthier than the clones did in the same environ.. the clones from these hybrids (especially hybrids) were inherently weaker than the seeded plants of the same genetic stock ,,, cause they lost their mojo ('hybrid vigor') with age!

The same clone-line will always display different results in different gardens,, because phenotype is the environment over genotype... so in some cases it may appear that the line has improved a generation when moved gardens or it has a change of method. The potential potency and resin profile of a clone may remain in the same condition as the parent seed plant, but only so long as the clone-line is kept healthy.

Most clone lines get played out after a few years due to sexual dominance in an annual,, they preflower then mutate. A few true exceptions like Cheese (uk) and Chitral (nl) are more than 20 years old,, still resilient enough to produce their minerals year after year,,

but many of the other "clone only" lines are all buggered and battered out ... small and squatted,, (dwarfes if we were being impolite).. definitely NOT the clones anyone would select if offered a wide selection of old and fresh clones or seed plants to grow from... that's for sure

Heds are always cloning new seed lines and the old clones ,,, so there's always a nice vibe to keep everyone happy and the clone population healthy. We put out Amnesia [Hy-Pro] clones for this reason a few years ago,, which still grow healthy in many gardens today ,, so its not like we are anti-clone or anything (lol) ,, just emphasising the fact that clones grow weaker with age,, in growth patterns,, for many reasons

Peace n flowers all

 

[cannaboy]

Some Helpfull clone Info

Some Helpfull clone Info

A clone isn't a seed plant and knowing to veg and when to flower is up to you... All being said clones are clones they are what the mother was,, If you veg on a bit seeds take a few months to grow big, my clones would smash them out the park.......
1st generation clone's from a seed plant are not as big vigarous or well rooted as its mother but has all it needs,2nd,3rd,4th,5th generation however it may be apparent that and is common for things to be a bit SHIT. And not be clone matireal...this is important to find out if planning to do breading..
However many commercial or big clone turnovers don't keep viable mothers without loss of vigour or picking up pathogens on the way.
You can harm plants with too much trimming in a session and may incourage a weekness defects,in the next generation open wounds and stress and a poor enveroment can cause a misconsumption over apperence/taste final yield, Then ther is the EPIGENOME which has its own thread and people have their oppinions on this too.

A clone that grows/came from my mother in my room that grows in your room will display differences. However if you clone me 1 back before you renew or flower the generation theline will grow true in my room enviroment again same season for seasons..This is Enviromental... The EPIGENOME is the A clone that grows/came from my mother in my room that grows in your room will display differences. However if you clone me 1 back from a subsequent genoration of that genetic that was not cloned under the origional enviroment the branch cloned was inferior & the mother was in sub par concdition. This is the argument over this trait occorance..along with pests and the use of suplimentary lighting..
But sometimes a clone needs to go back through a flower/reveg which isn't an ideal situation and some breeders will 12/12 for a week then back 24hrs to sex this is bad too.


How to keep lines in clone for years is a artform.
Shantibaba says if you take a mother plant and clone off her and root clones under natural light and grow them on under natural light to go under HID's as new mothers, He has no apparent loss of traits vigour.

 

[Snype]

The problem that I see is that most of the growers that I know stress their plants without knowing it by taking too many cuttings off of their plants. Another problem that I see is people not taking care of their moms 365 days a year and have a few days or weeks of poor care which can cause stress.

I have a friend who invented a strain called J1 and he has been working with it since the 80's. I've seen him clone that plant for many generations and they were always the same. He told me that it's important to take the main top off of the plant before he starts taking cuts from the plant and that will be the next mom and he will repeat the same process for many years. Because he does it this way it's harder to have any stress with all the care that he puts into it 365 days a year. It is possible that moms that you see that are not as good as the P1 were over cloned or pruned and affected the next generation.

 

[bosshoggin]

thanx 4 all yalls help its greatly appreciated..........it hastn been a full week i believe since transplant and theyve at very least doubled in size-post pics soon-thanx again
peace and overgrow
BOSS

 

[Snype]

Nice Boss sounds dope! You sippin on some syzurp?

 

[bosshoggin]

already snype-

 

[bosshoggin]

2 wks ago, post more pix 2mrw

 

[Snype]

Plants look nice boss!