Chem. vs. Organic ferts discussion

[heady blunts]

i just watched this amazing movie today and it totally changed my life. a lot of similar things being discussed in this thread.

food matters

it's on netflix instant view btw.

 

[heady blunts]

I agree. You make a good point about transporting petroleum around in petroleum burning trucks trucks and trains. You mention biased numbers, I wouldn't be surprised if the chemical industry fudges numbers more than organic advocates. But that's just my opinion.

logistics is another factor to consider that often gets left out of the "conventional farming to feed the world" debate.

the parts of the world most affected by famine and hunger are more able to sustain small farms using composting and soil building practices with varied crops and livestock.

giant monoculture industrial agriculture operations are not only failing to feed those parts of the world, but also destroy local ecosystems and economies. and often food grown in these farms is transported thousands of miles to its final destination. this is not the solution to end hunger in developing nations, and it's seemingly not a permanent solution for the developed world either.

 

[CascadeFarmer]

I'm on the organics side of the 'discussion' here. Started as a hydro grower in rockwool with GH nutes and ended up with pre-amended soil using 100% organics which to me is no bottle feeding and only water or teas.

Some interesting info from a large scale ag consulant I know is interesting. He works with mostly conventional farms but still a decent amount of organic farms. A few tricks are using something like MAP (Monoammonium phosphate) and adding dextrose. The lactobacillus in the soil go crazy and complex up the highly soluble P in the MAP. So you get more long term efficient use of the P and less runoff. Another thing is using something like an ultra micronized lignite when adding highly soluble N and/or P. You can get away with adding 25% less ferts cause the lignite ties it up in the soil and it makes the highly soluble N and P more 'microbially friendly'...exact words. The guy knows his soil microlife and considers conventional ferts unfriendly to microlife. Actually his opinion is based on soil testing he's done. Once again more efficient and less runoff. Just look at the dead zone in the Gulf of Mexico and this year they are projecting it to be the worst ever.

I just give the plant/soil critters what they need to be healthy and let nature do the rest. Considering millions of years of evolution I think nature has a pretty good handle on it by now . I actually find organic soil grower the lazy man's way...just add water.

 

[cyat]

Quote:
Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
I'm not sure what the numbers are with alternative vs conventional medicine. But 20th century vaccines have saved lives in the tens of millions.

a lot of the vaccines they push on us now, are a tool used by eugenisists to further their agenda of " population control", i.e. bill gates and ted turner.


sorry im kinda off topic couldnt help that one

 

[Butte_Creek]

Penn & Teller has an episode on organics with their show 'Bullshit'...very informative and thought provoking show, very funny too (and popular). Notice the name of said show, 'Bullshit'...lmao. And yes, organics is Bullshit. Established growers will never admit this after having spent thousands on this scam and will defend (very vehemently) themselves with tooth & claw...as I said before I mean no disrespect, much love & all that. I will address this subject every time it comes up so as to inform the newcomers. They read the 'bullshit' here & elsewhere then go out & spend $ on the bullshit, thus creating more bullshit.....speaking of bullshit, that bullshit smells just like bullshit

Penn and teller. Your going to take scientific advice from two comedians who make a living telling jokes.


You have no idea how organic agriculture works, and seem to ignore the facts that conventional agriculture in most cases is ruining our top soil, and polluting our environment..
Do you have any idea how ignorant that sounds?

Did you know the world is flat? carrot top just said so on the television...



What happens when current conventional agriculture ultimately fails? the argument that it's the only way to feed the planet seems kind of near sighted to say the least , short term. Real issue I guess is over population though..

I do kind of agree with disco biscuit, that there won't be just one system or solution in the beginning or ever, that we will need a few systems, at least in the beginning. Aquaponics hopefully will take off soon.
.

The reason this argument is kind of crappy to begin with, is because the real problem and issue is over population of the human race. No system will work forever, people are going to die off eventually, scary but obvious. The human race isn't sustainable, we grow exponentionaly without many checks and balances.

Maybe conventional ag and fertilizer was gods solution to humanities over population, "let's see them grow their crops over time with this shit".hahahah

 

[Butte_Creek]

This is just crazy

Waste is unused resource whether its too much Organic cow shit or to many nutes

the main issue i see is ass hats ferting at 1000+ ppm

you can finish at like 550ppm and still do 2# a light

soil microbes will consume chemical ferts
this is madness

ps i drink EDTA to remove lead from ma body.

Yes, few(keyword few) microbes will consume chemical ferts, but over time through excessive use of synthetic chem fertilizer, plants stop releasing exudates to attract and feed microbes, most microbes are killed from chem fertilizer to begin with, plants and the microbes that eat the chem are in constant struggle to consume and the plant usually is more effective(chem microbes die off).

It really doesn't work over time, microbes and organic matter dissapear . And because diversity is most important, one kind of microbe surviving(temporarily) really isn't a great success

An abundance of EDTA will kill microbes. People use salts, dyes, perfumes, synthetics, in their shampoos every day without harm, guess where it ends up and destroys biology/ecology?

The picture is larger

 

[enter sandman]

Organics has long been 'scientifically' proven to be a big hoax, a money making scam...continue to make fools of yourselves at yer own risk. Or do you lurk on icmag from a treehouse way up high...like in that movie 'without a paddle'. There is such a thing as research.

 

[Butte_Creek]

^
Provide links or I don't believe you. I understand a basic-average understanding of the science of organics, I.e. Nutrient cycle loops and soil food web etc from reading books and researching scientific journals for papers in college, it's pretty obvious even to me that its not a hoax, lol

Explain how a system that was here before humans is a hoax please? nutrient cycle loop and soil food web is a word humans created to explain a process that has been around much longer than us humans have, its how the planet works.

this lack of understanding you possess is epicly failing You, sorry

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

Well said. But it's industrialization and chemical ferts that allow us to sell as much food as we do.

Bad for the environment: check - better management necessary

Bad for health: check - jury's out on that one

For all you organic lovers, I say more power to you. peace

 

[Butte_Creek]

Disco biscuit, I appreciate your ability to stick it out, play devils advocate(important in any conversation), not resort to flaming, and make valid points. I'm guitly of getting too emotionally invested at times, outspoken, way to be role model ha !

 

[heady blunts]

Organics has long been 'scientifically' proven to be a big hoax, a money making scam...continue to make fools of yourselves at yer own risk. Or do you lurk on icmag from a treehouse way up high...like in that movie 'without a paddle'. There is such a thing as research.

no need for name calling.

how bout backing up some of those allegations?

to make it easier on you, i'll post a couple relevant articles supporting your argument that came up on the first page when i searched "organics a hoax?" on google:

Agro Services International Inc. "The Organic Hoax" by Terrence Fullerton

in this article mr. fullerton criticizes the organic CERTIFICATION PROCESS in the US, and the ambiguities in what chemicals are considered acceptable in organic production.

he makes some good points, but unfortunately his argument degrades into cheap straw man debate tricks and unsubstantiated opinion and it becomes unclear exactly who or what his target is.

Suppressed Truth [blog] "the organic food hoax"

if you relate to this guy then we can't really have a fair and balanced discussion.

in this article, the comically conservative, nut-job author argues that organic foods are not more nutritious than conventionally farmed foods, that pesticides are not harmful to the human body, and that conventional farming has in fact saved the environment.

some of the other articles he's written this month: "conservatism- the leading ideology in america," "american's haven't learned a thing and they'll regret it," "proof of a left-wing conspiracy to suppress truth," and "did someone say, 'peak oil'?"


if you have some more sources please provide them.

 

[mostnonymouse]

Organics has long been 'scientifically' proven to be a big hoax, a money making scam...continue to make fools of yourselves at yer own risk. Or do you lurk on icmag from a treehouse way up high...like in that movie 'without a paddle'. There is such a thing as research.

You're the only one making a fool of yourself. You're on your own team. Go play in the other room and let the adults talk.