Ceramic Metal Halide (CMH)

[Guest]

Greenisgold - I think I was sounding sensative to your earlier post. I was just up from sleeping and all hazed out.LOL I have re-read your post and think that we are on the same page.

Peace to you!

 

[greenisgold]

I love this thread, thank you to everyone for contributing, Azeotrope & Simba you have both convinced me to go CMH. And yes it is entirely your fault that I now have to rethink my lighting! funny thing is I don't mind...lol

I have settled on a 6' x 8' space with 6'6" of vertical for plants and lights and growing medium. Now I haven't decided on growing method yet other then flowering will be in hydro. What I'm wondering is what would be the best use of these CMH lamps is this size of grow.

Here is what I think I might do, run 6 tables, bubblers, whatevers of 2'x3' in size around the outside of the space and light with 7 400W CMH just above the canopy.



My questions are:
1. What type of a reflector should I be thinking of for this? If I can get away with out air cooling or running an AC it would be a bonus. I have been looking for a small parabolic but haven't had any luck yet.

2. With the size and layout as above, what growing style would lend it self best to the CMH? SOG, SCROG, bushes?...

3. Ummm I know I had 3 questions but I lost one somewhere between here and the pipe...

Any feedback is welcome...
GG

That would be a cool setup. If it was me I would train them using LST, but that entails a long veg. With the setup you are thinking of having, stay away from scrog.
Have you ever considered a stadium grow. With the amount lights you are proposing you could have a killer setup, BUT you will have to have some big-ass moms to get around 60-80 plants (sog).
Or run a sog like you propose, still will need lots of clones, but with a 2 week veg max, you get a hell of a lot of harvests/year.
Peace and good luck

 

[Bigtimer7]

Hey guys, quick question I was ordering my CMH and didnt know which bulb to buy. I assume that horizontal because it is in a hood? Am I correct in thinking thiS?

 

[Guest]

Just match the position you are going to mount it in. ------ = Horizontal

llllllllllllll = Vertical

Most of us have Horizontal hoods.

 

[Bigtimer7]

haha thats what I figured just had to make sure before I drop 100 on 2 bulbs.

 

[Guest]

Greenisgold -

Are you worried about getting access to the sides against the walls? I can see that as a concern. Good point. LST works nicely I stay away from large plant counts these days as I have no need. Not to mention the legal implications if things go wrong. When I ran SCROGs I had that 4x6' area built out of black and white poly and could get to it from all sides. The general layout looks good though.

 

[Ganja Guerilla]

That would be a cool setup. If it was me I would train them using LST, but that entails a long veg. With the setup you are thinking of having, stay away from scrog.
Have you ever considered a stadium grow. With the amount lights you are proposing you could have a killer setup, BUT you will have to have some big-ass moms to get around 60-80 plants (sog).
Or run a sog like you propose, still will need lots of clones, but with a 2 week veg max, you get a hell of a lot of harvests/year.
Peace and good luck

After seeing NF's HP stadium grow I was really leaning that way but I don't know if a 400 would work for a stadium in a 6x8 footprint... now if the 600 or 1000 CMH hit the market tomorrow I'd be all over a stadium.

My mom, clone, veg area is 6'9" long by 3'6" wide and 7'2" high and stacked with adjustable shelves. I'm planing on dirt based bonsai moms and clones in half of this space using the other half for vegging. I've been playing around with plant numbers and I think that I could easily produce 80 to 100 clones for each run. I would take 3 or 4 bonsai cuts, root and veg them, then from these 3 or 4 cuttings I would make clones to go into flower. I'm not looking for a perpetual but I would like to be ready to reload the flower room within a day or two of harvesting, a 7 to 8 week strain should give me lots of time to prepare clones and veg them. I intend to veg under CMH also by the way.

Thank you for the replies.
GG

 

[MPL]

If I am doing a vertical grow, even though the bulb will be hanging vertically, do I still want a horizontal bulb? The reason I ask is that if the vertical bulb is designed to throw light down, then I don't want that.

 

[simba]

hey wow allot happened in day..

mpl its not so much the 3k are cappy spd.just not what we want yet..


ya i the Fadeblock issue ya i should have gone into both aspects.
thats also why they cant say they are archive quality lamps because they dont block All UV.. i should have said that but i was thinking more along the lines of factory workers for the 400 watters as retail only small.

as far as that layout i agree with az

mpl as far as ballasts.. u can go magnetic cheaply
also as far as hor or vertical.
if your hanging it vertically and having plants grow around it then u need vert..
if u miss position a lamp you can have Big issues.. not worth it..

 

[Rolling_Stoned]

Please excuse my ignorgance. From what i've been reading using a glass cool tube isn't as good as not using any glass barrier at all, because the glass blocks UV and UV is good for the production of our budz. Is that correct so far? Am I also correct in assuming that The Philips Master Color, HPS-Retro White 400w emits 4000 Kelvins? Can you run these things (CMH bulbs) on digital ballasts if they're small wattages?

 

[Guest]

I believe that the smaller wattage cmh bulbs are usually a pulse start halide. There are magnetic pulse start ballasts in almost every wattage. I would say that the ansi code need be crossed to be safe. I have used glass in the past but never again for the reasons you just brought up. Some insist on it or don't have their set up correct.

Yes 4k is the color.

 

[Pirate138]

anyone know how many degrees cooler a 400w CMH bulb is vs 400 hps bulb? i ask cause i have a small cab and it gets hot in there at times.

 

[greenisgold]

anyone know how many degrees cooler a 400w CMH bulb is vs 400 hps bulb? i ask cause i have a small cab and it gets hot in there at times.

From what I understand, but Simba or Azeo will know, it's not the heat, it's how the CMH "throws" heat. Reg MH and HPS throw a lot of heat, the CMH does not, therefore you can put light much closer to the plants.

 

[Pirate138]

so buying a CMH wont lower my temps at all? just allow my light to be closer without burning?

 

[simba]

pirate..
depends on venting etc.. but yes.. it will if done properly...
(even a chit aircooled hood will lower room temp ALOT>. as its able to suck almost all heat generated,, *(yes there is heat . then and no glass even needed for AC>> Basicly u just need a hood to collect the heat that is rising off the arc tube..

and yes CMH allows for closer even without active cooling.. (for larger rooms, small rooms require active cooling or Proper room venting.. and air movement.

as far as small areas.. u have to think of it like ur running a MH lamp in there as the bulb itself gets as hot as a MH lamp (hotter than HPS) however its not as big of an issue for cmh vs mh as mh throws heat and CMH only needs bulb cooling to Remove 75%+ HEAT vs MH or HPS that throws the heat and requires the Small area to be Heavily actively cooled..


20-150 watt are MH pulsed lamps (well they have 20-400 watt MHP) but in our case 250 and 400 are HPS
20-150 digis MUST STATE that there for CERAMIC Lamp, (VS, Advance, Hatch, Few others) have CMH units.. however you can also use magnetic MHP ballasts.. .. (ansi code same though)

Bulb temps
430 Philips son agro hps = 430c arc tube about 700c
cmh 400 hps retro white = 400c arc tube up to 1000c *( i have to look for typ as thats its max)
go figure.. cmh is lower bulb jacket temp..
im prob creating a mess by putting those number out there..adds to the confusion..

 

[Ganja Guerilla]

re: cooling without glass

re: cooling without glass

For these lamps I think one of the best matched reflectors is the SunGro from Sunlight Supply. It allows for an air cool fitting to be mounted to the top of the hood so that a single 4" could be used to pull heat from the top of the lamp.

This is not the most effective reflector out there but should work well for cooling a CHM, the size is 20-1/4" x 20-1/4" x 9". I would need 7 of these... too much cash, small parabolics or batwings for me I think.

 

[MPL]

I haven't seen a magnetic ballast that will fire the 150w single-ended CMH lamps.

So vertical bulbs don't change the way they light up an area vs. a horizontal bulb? What is the difference? I was going to hang it vertically, but since the plants were going to be around it I thought it would still need to be a horizontal style bulb... apparently I was wrong. That's why I asked.

mpl as far as ballasts.. u can go magnetic cheaply
also as far as hor or vertical.
if your hanging it vertically and having plants grow around it then u need vert..
if u miss position a lamp you can have Big issues.. not worth it..

 

[MPL]

Hey I think I found an inexpensive ballast that will fire the 150w CMH lamps.

CLICK ME

What do you guys think?

Here is the spec sheet in a .pdf.

 

[MPL]

Also I found another source for the Philips Lamps.

Bulbs.com

 

[MPL]

Ok, I figured something out. If you want to use the 150w or lower CMH lamps, you do not want to use the ones listed here. They are the bi-pin versions, and require an enclosure.

What it seems like we want is the MasterColor CDM 150W/940 Med ED17 CL ALTO.

This is the lamp I am pretty sure I'm going to get for my grow. I am trying to find the spectrum for this specific lamp, but I'm sure it is like all the other MasterColors. Also, it says that it requires an enclosed fixture as well, but I think that is because it emits full UV because it is unprotected (it doesn't have a coating like the other versions). I hope it isn't rated to be enclosed because it blows up easy. Any info on this?

Ok, I found a .pdf for the ED17-base bulbs. I really think these are the ones those of us wanting to go with 150w lamps need to get, I'm still not 100% sure which version. There are 4 of the 150w ED17 lamps, there is one each, coated and uncoated, of the unpcotected and protected (enclosed- or open-rated). I guess the safest bet would be to get the clear, protected 150w lamp, since I haven't been able to find why and/or what the reasons for rating them like that is. If it is just because of UV emission, I want the unprotected one.

Correct me if I am wrong on any of this.