Ceramic Metal Halide (CMH)

[Drek]

They are multi volt but for the proper lamp operation according the there test reports and phillips own lamp specs 277v will be needed. Would be great for high watt cmh commercial grow setup that usually have 3 phase available.

I fired one up the other night on a 1k (probe) MH ballast I bought for $20. Lamp seemed fine; ballast grunted pretty good when starting the lamp tho.

I think the important thing is to use a high quality pulse-start MH ballast with it. Philips advance 1k ballast is what I would use. All start tech is designed to start on either ballast type, with pulse type being preferred, imo. I don't think you need 3 phase to get it to work well.

Thanks for input all, I looked on the Advanced Tech page, for 315W CMH

Any idea if this is just to save money by carrying less products, or if there are actual disadvantages to running the 315W Agro? My initial impression was that the Agro was the best for horticulture/plants.

Cheers!

I have no idea why the 315 Agro isn't on his page by now. I'm sure he has it. Agro is designed around a wide variety of plants I think. Nice lamp. There's also Bolder and Cycloptics and a few others...

 

[redclover]

So is the LEC kit still the most bang for buck?

 

[Ericos]

So is the LEC kit still the most bang for buck?

Pretty much, hood designed for the lamp and ready to run out the box. Just the price on retail is up there. Wholesale at cost is more reasonable if you can(I work at a hydro shop so know that pricing : )

drek I know the 860 works just fine on magnetic, I was referring to the accendoe ballast I mentioning. It's a digital ballast on the industrial side that runs my,hps, and cmh. The tech in that ballast is interesting but designed for the commercial/Industrial side just the that 660w hortilux Cerato arc pro2 bulbs that run on a hpmv ballast.

 

[Jhhnn]

I fired one up the other night on a 1k (probe) MH ballast I bought for $20. Lamp seemed fine; ballast grunted pretty good when starting the lamp tho.

I think the important thing is to use a high quality pulse-start MH ballast with it. Philips advance 1k ballast is what I would use. All start tech is designed to start on either ballast type, with pulse type being preferred, imo. I don't think you need 3 phase to get it work well.

I have no idea why the 315 Agro isn't on his page by now. I'm sure he has it. Agro is designed around a wide variety of plants I think. Nice lamp. There's also Bolder and Cycloptics and a few others...

I think ericos was talking about the electronic ballast he mentioned as requiring 277v, not the 860 lamp itself.

I think that for med wattage growers the 330 is a good choice to move into the CMH realm at low cost. I intend to run mine for seedlings & veg on a salvaged 400w industrial pulse start MH ballast. Switchable ballasts work fine, too, I'm sure, & the difference between a switchable ballast & a standard hps ballast is the switch.

Yeh, sure, the 315's are the state of the art but the price is steep & most growers' needs for a step up transformer to run philips ballasts offsets power saving in no small way. W/o some serious ingenuity, you end up with a lot of exposed wiring connections the same as you'd have with a naked MH ballast that only costs $40-$50 brand new. The stuff from cycloptics & bolder lighting is all enclosed, but the price is even steeper atm.

My 330 setup is torn down right now or I'd put my kill a watt meter on it to see how much power it really uses. It'd be good if somebody running a 315 on a voltage converter would do the same.

 

[rives]

W/o some serious ingenuity, you end up with a lot of exposed wiring connections the same as you'd have with a naked MH ballast that only costs $40-$50 brand new. The stuff from cycloptics & bolder lighting is all enclosed, but the price is even steeper atm.

There are some pretty neat options for housing the Philips ballast because it is so small and sheds very little heat. I used an aluminum enclosure by Budd on one of mine that was pretty inexpensive from onlinecomponents.com. Plug headers (with a twist lock on the lamp output side) and 1/4" fuse holders made for a nice package that had removable cords. I'll try and remember to get a picture up.

 

[SB7]

Just thought I'd add that anyone using a step up transformer ( with Philips electronic ballast), should opt for a toroid type ( as opposed to a standard laminated type)
Lower losses , practically no noise, smaller etc... and I did most of my "exposed" terminations inside the step up transformer box.

When I get back home, I'll do some overall power measurements

 

[Jhhnn]

There are some pretty neat options for housing the Philips ballast because it is so small and sheds very little heat. I used an aluminum enclosure by Budd on one of mine that was pretty inexpensive from onlinecomponents.com. Plug headers (with a twist lock on the lamp output side) and 1/4" fuse holders made for a nice package that had removable cords. I'll try and remember to get a picture up.

I did much the same with my salvaged 400w ballast, putting it in an ancient L shaped computer power supply enclosure. Plenty of ventilation. Not everybody has the tools or the skills to do stuff like that, however.

 

[Ericos]

I'm a DIY guy my self as well. Can't see paying prices on some things when I can match it pretty close with my own designs.

I come from the industrial electric side so that's how I come across my train of thought and resources.

Well ran into some snags. Can t remove the glass till my ac is in, delays, and venting with low volume for the bulbs longevity. I know these bulbs like to stay in the 500-700 degree range during normal operation. The 315s will be wired up tomorrow. Pics attached.

Damn those 860s are like having the sun in a box! Pics not the greatest lights throwing the camera off, go figure.

 

[OIBI]

Are the ballasts from advanced tech the best bang for your buck for the 315watt bulbs?

 

[rives]

Are the ballasts from advanced tech the best bang for your buck for the 315watt bulbs?

Unless you can find them on eBay.

 

[Ericos]

Well no luck getting those lines from showing in the pic. If anyone has suggestions for that please fill me in.

Seems the best image is a negative to show the spread of light. It doesn't start till about 2' below the fixture and does run pretty warm with the 860s in these hoods and is intense but still need to see how the babes like it.

Just thought maybe I should do enter that summer newbie contest with this cmh cycle since it a test for me and I'll be documenting it in depth anyway, ehhh who knows.

 

[Drek]

You got some interesting tech there Ericos. Nice setup; hope the grow goes well. The little plasma unit looks neat; that's 41.02 emitter in it? I know Gavita's had those available for a while now.

 

[Drek]

Drek, you are correct in the proveness of the retro as a quality lamp. I personally like to have efficiency play a role in ballast/lamp setups to some extent. Even the a 315 agro has a better umol than the moguls I'm using.

With the Retro, just being CDM is a high enough efficiency standard for me. Agro is ~ 600 umols, but having a spectral curve that plants overall prefer. Other lamps follow this curve, because it happens to be close to what we like visually as well, HID soft white.

I read a while back that a guy tested his 2 x 400w Retro setup, and it's sweet spot came out with a PPFD of 1600umols/m2/s. Whether it's bunk or not, I don't know. Apogee PAR meter would be nice to have.

 

[Jhhnn]

Well no luck getting those lines from showing in the pic. If anyone has suggestions for that please fill me in.

Seems the best image is a negative to show the spread of light. It doesn't start till about 2' below the fixture and does run pretty warm with the 860s in these hoods and is intense but still need to see how the babes like it.

Just thought maybe I should do enter that summer newbie contest with this cmh cycle since it a test for me and I'll be documenting it in depth anyway, ehhh who knows.

I get the same problem with my phone camera, but my little panasonic & the wife's canon have no problems. Light output actually pulses with the frequency. I think the shutter on my phone cam is too slow to scan the image during a single pulse, rather taking the time of multiple pulses, giving bright/dim bands.

 

[Ericos]

The plasma is a .02 spectrum. My theory for this grow was to have as much white light as possible to make use of a fuller spectrum but with good amounts of uvb without reptile bulbs. Looking for other worldly quality and hoping for decent yield at the same time without having to supplement the red wavelengths

I have yet to see a plasma/cmh combo grow. Also if the moguls don't do so well I have the pgz18 bases o retro fit my hoods with the agro. You are right on the Argos curve, that bulb utilizes a good spike in the red nanometer wavelengths with gives it a edge on most plus it's cmh, cdl as some are starting to call it.

As for the retro test those numbers are well. I believe the 860's are at ~1400 umol. Bottom line for getting the most out of these cmh is the reflector used but cost is a a factor of circumstance.

 

[Drek]

Actually, I saw a guy measure 12" off the side of an 860 with an Apogee PAR meter, and it came out at ~1880umols. Off the bottom was 1600u or something.

What was the reasoning behind the inclusion of the Plasma? I've read that plant response is supposedly a little different(positive) towards these lamps, because they are so continuous throughout the spectral curve. The plasma power is 300w?

 

[Ericos]

Actually, I saw a guy measure 12" off the side of an 860 with an Apogee PAR meter, and it came out at ~1880umols. Off the bottom was 1600u or something.

What was the reasoning behind the inclusion of the Plasma? I've read that plant response is supposedly a little different(positive) towards these lamps, because they are so continuous throughout the spectral curve. The plasma power is 300w?

Another local grower is letting me use is apogee meter for this cycle so well see, especially considering I'm using an og hood. That light intense it seemed.

Main reason for adding the plasma was to see how it affected growth. I've heard it can cause some "weird" growing characteristics both good and bad. And have seen it with hps and mh just not with cmh. It's funny you mentioned they've been around, the production serial number on mine is 110and I got is just a few months back!

With what I'm flowering all but the golden goat are in-house stains we bred and are basically year and a have old so fairly young on their lineage.

 

[squarepush3r]

This cannot be true.

If so, how would one order a case of either one, if Philips own product codes are the exact same for each lamp?As rives et. al. said, they are the same as the agro. my Agros are old stock, (may 2013) and they say "green power" on the side of the base of the lamp.

When I spoke to Tom at ATL he said;
They are the same lamp. It is all marketing. The purpose of the agro/green power was supplemental green house lighting. These lamps trick the crops into thinking its summer while early in spring and late in fall and later into the night and earlier in the morning.

The Agro/green power shifted spectrum red and reduced blue to get better power efficiency and PPF. (red umol are cheaper in power than blue) In its role as SUPPLEMENTAL GREENHOUSE LIGHTING that makes sense. As the ONLY lighting for an indoor grow that is not ideal. He suggests the mogul base 315W bulb he recommends is actually better than the Agro for our purposes. Also he does not like PGZ bases, much preferring the mogul base. Also He suggests that the Agro/GreenPower has superior UV blocking to his recommended bulb, which is bad for indoor grows, but great if you have people working in your greenhouse all day. This was pointed out by redclover in #5810. Tom told me he would put that vid up after our chat. He did not, however, post the corresponding lack of UV block on his recommended bulb. As redclover also points out.

His recommended bulb. http://www.ecat.lighting.philips.co...stercolor-cdm-elite-mw-mogul-base/67292/cat/#

I present these thoughts for our dissection.

I think we would like to understand better:
How the Mogul Base is different from the PGZ. And how does that effect us.
Why the mogul base bulbs have a lower life 20000H ( in the docs.)
If there is any difference in the UV coating, as tom says.

ALSO
Is it time for a new thread yet? It seems a lot of the info in the last few pages of posts has been gone over before several times. its just very hard to find in a 5800 post thread.

Can we hack all this info together into one post and start a new thread?

wanted to bump this post, since it answers a lot of questions

 

[Drek]

It looks like a nice bulb. I didn't know that bulb existed. It's datasheet also has PPF units, showing the lamp has horticultural intentions. I was wondering why he didn't have the 315 pg18 on his site...I guess he likes the other bulb, the mogul base. It has pretty high levels of UVA/B. Also comes in 930/942 color temps.

 

[CannaSkweez]

They're apparently gone, or nearly so. OTOH, the CDM330/U/O/4K EA Allstart for 400w MH core & coil ballasts is apparently here to stay. It's Philips' high end energy saver lamp for industrial applications.

They should run fine on switchable 400w ballasts.

Re: Post 6084 on CDM330/U/O/4K EA Allstart for 400w MH core & coil ballasts, question:

Not sure if you mean by "core and coil ballasts" the older magnetic style heavy ballasts? So will these cdm330 lamps run fine without shortened life on a 400w digital ballast also? And using a 400w powering a 330w lamp won't overpush it to an early demise?

Would you regard these 330s as energy-saving as the 315w? Ability to utilize a 400w ballast - even if only magnetic will work - is worth considering for the lower ballast cost.. thx