Ceramic Metal Halide (CMH)

[Illumination]

It's not monkeys designing these lamps. The arc tube itself is designed to emit a more blue-shifted spectrum, and the jacket is designed to refract that to the desired SPD. Creating more UV-B would be really easy, but these lamps are designed to be worked under, not for plants. It would be really great if someone would develop a horticultural version of the Retro White lamps.

http://www.usa.ecat.lighting.philip...cdm-t-elite-med-wattage-agro/928601172201_na/

But to my knowledge still little to no uv

 

[Illumination]

It's not monkeys designing these lamps. The arc tube itself is designed to emit a more blue-shifted spectrum, and the jacket is designed to refract that to the desired SPD. Creating more UV-B would be really easy, but these lamps are designed to be worked under, not for plants. It would be really great if someone would develop a horticultural version of the Retro White lamps.

Features
Excellent PPF (Photosynthetic Photon Flux) value of 1.9 micromols per second

 

[magiccannabus]

http://www.usa.ecat.lighting.philip...cdm-t-elite-med-wattage-agro/928601172201_na/

But to my knowledge still little to no uv

Interesting! Looks like quite a lamp, but i can't find an SPD graph anywhere. Maybe my searching skills are lacking....

Anyway what I'm talking about with the jacket and how it shifts the light is that to make a jacket that allows lots of UV through changes how the material shifts other spectra as well. They have to tune the whole setup to produce a certain output. This is why you aren't really seeing HID lamps that have no yellow at all in them, even when they're horti lamps. Most of that energy coming off the tube is UV until it hits the jacket. There's stories about people in public places getting burns from cracked metal halide fixtures. It's just the very nature of how these lamps work that make the UV low. I mean, if it's producing UV-B, it probably has to be UV-C to start with at the tube. I doubt the CMH will ever produce anywhere near as much UV-B as a far-blue metal halide for reef growing since it's main output range is way more red than that.

 

[whazzup]

Interesting! Looks like quite a lamp, but i can't find an SPD graph anywhere. Maybe my searching skills are lacking....

Anyway what I'm talking about with the jacket and how it shifts the light is that to make a jacket that allows lots of UV through changes how the material shifts other spectra as well. They have to tune the whole setup to produce a certain output. This is why you aren't really seeing HID lamps that have no yellow at all in them, even when they're horti lamps. Most of that energy coming off the tube is UV until it hits the jacket. There's stories about people in public places getting burns from cracked metal halide fixtures. It's just the very nature of how these lamps work that make the UV low. I mean, if it's producing UV-B, it probably has to be UV-C to start with at the tube. I doubt the CMH will ever produce anywhere near as much UV-B as a far-blue metal halide for reef growing since it's main output range is way more red than that.

Quote from specs:
UV-related Characteristics
Damage Factor D/fc 0.17 -
PET (NIOSH) 241 h500lx
UV A 4.65 mW/cm2
UV B 0.02 mW/cm2
UV C 0.02 mW/cm2

The lamp has an inner jacket for it to be suitable for an open fixture. so it is protected. CMH in general also does emit a lot of UV, so the warnings are in order when using a closed fixture lamp. Also see the general CDM warning notice: http://download.p4c.philips.com/l4b/9/928601172201_na/928601172201_na_wrn_aen.pdf

btw, a closed or protected fixture is something else than an air cooled fixture, as this would suck very high temperature particles in you ventilation system in case of a rupture which could cause a fire.

So actually only protected MH lamps are allowed in an air cooled fixture. The hardened glass in the fixture would block most UV anyways so it is not much use choosing a lamp which has UV output.

I believe that the protected version have UV-block quartz glass in the inner balloon (surrounding the CMH arc balloon) as well as the outer balloon, preventing UV dangers in case of a failing inner or outer balloon.

I believe the Agro version will only be available in a protected version as all horticultural reflectors are open reflectors. Philips published some information about generic CDM lamps on their page, which are also available in unprotected versions. The Agro lamp we have for tests is protected (so has the double balloon).

 

[BrnCow]

Bulb
http://www.amazon.com/Philips-218317-CDM-T-Elite-Halide/dp/B0052E60BW

Ballast - Philips 07357
http://www.amazon.com/Philips-07357-IZTMH210315RLF-Halide-Ballast/dp/B0041L9ZAK%3FSubscriptionId%3DAKIAI7YX2TYQB5DQMW5Q%26tag%3Dblogfree69-20%26linkCode%3Dxm2%26camp%3D2025%26creative%3D165953%26creativeASIN%3DB0041L9ZAK

 

[BrnCow]

Anyone finished a grow with these? How many per M2? Additional lights?

 

[rives]

Here is some spectral testing done on the Philips Agro lamp for Cycloptics by Utah State University. Cycloptics new luminaire for these just hit the market, but as you can see from the component costs in the above Amazon links, it is pretty spendy gear.

Spectral analysis

BrnCow, the lamp that you have linked on Amazon isn't the Agro. The Agro is a T12, and the one in the link is a T9, with a single jacket.

I've started piecing together components to put some lighting together with these. At this point, I haven't been able to find a source for either the PGZ18 (for the single-envelope T9) or the PGZX18 (for the double-envelope T12) lampholders. If anyone can point me toward a source, I would be grateful.

 

[Illumination]

here it is ... an 830 cmh watt to run on a 1000 watt mh ballast

http://www.bulbs.com/espec.aspx?ID=18388



more info

http://www.bchydro.com/ecatalog/eCa...tage All Start 830W BT56-CDM830/V/O/4K EA 6PK

http://www.ecat.lighting.philips.co...nergy-advantage-cdm-allstart/928601172801_na/
spectrum graph:

 

[rives]

here it is ... an 830 cmh watt to run on a 1000 watt mh ballast

Interesting lamp, I didn't realize that they were building a CMH in the 1000 watt range. It doesn't seem to put out much light, though - two of the 315w CDM lamps linked above by BrnCow put out more light with 200 fewer watts.

 

[Maj.Cottonmouth]

This the right one rives?

http://www.bender-wirth.de/katalog/katalog.php?lan=1&BASES=PGZX18;

///EDIT/// Shit nevermind, I don't see anywhere on their site to buy.

///EDITAGAIN/// - Here is a site that has them but minimum 100

http://www.bulbtronics.com/Search-T...leProductSearch&AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1

 

[rives]

This the right one rives?

Thanks, Major. Yes, those are the right ones. I've found both of those, but B&W has large minimum orders through their stateside distribution as you saw with Bulbtronics. Same thing with an Italian manufacturer that I found. I found one US mfg. (Mitronics) that look like they might work. They have a minimum order of 10, but the sockets are only $13.75 each instead of the $35-60 that the other people want. $140 beats the hell out of $3600!

 

[StoopheadFred]

I've got a 4k CMH (http://1000bulbs.com/product/4786/MHS-0150377242.html) and I'm wondering if I'd have better luck in flowering if I got this 3k CMH (http://1000bulbs.com/product/58037/MHS-0150134635.html)

Looks like the 3k more closely resembles an HPS spectrum and I know lower "k" value is better for flowering... but would it make a big difference vs my current 4k lights?

 

[thestruggle]

I got a Philips MasterColor 70 Watt CMH ED-17 Protected (4K), does vertical or horizontal orientation matter for this bulb?

 

[rives]

I got a Philips MasterColor 70 Watt CMH ED-17 Protected (4K), does vertical or horizontal orientation matter for this bulb?

If this is your lamp, then it is approved for universal burning.

 

[rives]

I've got a 4k CMH (http://1000bulbs.com/product/4786/MHS-0150377242.html) and I'm wondering if I'd have better luck in flowering if I got this 3k CMH (http://1000bulbs.com/product/58037/MHS-0150134635.html)

Looks like the 3k more closely resembles an HPS spectrum and I know lower "k" value is better for flowering... but would it make a big difference vs my current 4k lights?

Fred, if you are still looking for an answer to your question, take a look at the bottom of this pdf file at the spd charts. The 4k lamp is significantly stronger in the 600-700nm range, which is what you want for flowering. I would think that it would make a substantial difference - the only time that I have seen little impact between 3k and 4k lamps is in fluorescents, and that's as a result of the way that the phosphors work.

 

[brotherjericho]

Fred, if you are still looking for an answer to your question, take a look at the bottom of this pdf file at the spd charts. The 4k lamp is significantly stronger in the 600-700nm range, which is what you want for flowering. I would think that it would make a substantial difference - the only time that I have seen little impact between 3k and 4k lamps is in fluorescents, and that's as a result of the way that the phosphors work.

This is interesting because it goes against the conventional wisdom of most of the growers in the cannabis world. That is, that the sweep spot for most lighting during flowering is around 2700-3000k. Yet you are right, the chart shows that the 4000k CMH is a better choice.

It would be interesting to do a comparison grow of 3000k vs 4000k in these type lamps.

 

[rives]

This is interesting because it goes against the conventional wisdom of most of the growers in the cannabis world. That is, that the sweep spot for most lighting during flowering is around 2700-3000k. Yet you are right, the chart shows that the 4000k CMH is a better choice.

It would be interesting to do a comparison grow of 3000k vs 4000k in these type lamps.

Yes, it seems pretty odd to me too. I had wondered if they had the charts mislabeled, but the 4k lamp appears to be stronger across the board, which in turn seems like it would give a "whiter" light to our eyes.

 

[brotherjericho]

I wouldn't think they are mislabeled because the 4000k should have more blue, but it seems odd that it it so much better than the 3000k in the reds as well. I was comparing a different manufacturer's (GE) charts for CMH, and their 3000k models had more red than the 4000k. Weird, and not 100% sure that the chart for Philips is accurate.

 

[magiccannabus]

Fairly subtle variations in the designs and the exact composition of the arc tube gasses/salts can make huge differences in the output. There's no reason their 4000K can't have both more red and more blue than their 3000K lamp. Color temperature is correlated, so it's not like it has to be centered on 3000K or 4000K, it just has to come out appearing to the human eye to be that. Our eyes are not good at distinguishing the separate wavelengths and can be easily fooled. Look at how radically different different manufacturer's SPDs are for their competing fluorescent tubes, and how radically different that SPD looks than a CMH, even if they're all rated 3000K for example. It's not a good way to truly compare lamps.

 

[StoopheadFred]

Thanks for the info rives!

Just to make things a little more confusing, I was looking at this page from Advance Lighting and it shows that regular HPS are even less powerful in that 600-700 range.

I may buy one of those 3k lights just to see how she performs... but then again I do have a 400w magnetic HPS ballast that I could use to get that red spectrum... too many options...