Can't figure out problem - losing my mind!!

[Flanagani89]

Also slownickel, wouldn't adding all that lime (2 lbs per plant) cause a drastic increase in pH?

 

[Flanagani89]

based on everything ive read and see in this thread your plants look really hungry. you mention that your soil up top is compacted. you might not be getting water on most of the roots. when soil gets hydrophobic like that you can dump a million gallons of water on it and it will all just go around the rootball and away into the surrounding soil. i would rake the top of the soil a little bit and if you see roots then add another inch of some sort of cover mulch. then poke a bunch of holes in the soil a few inches deep all around the base and water very heavily. if you have any fish fertilizer use some of that for a few watering/feedings.


the way i understand it most of the food soil web shit goes on in the top inch of soil (topsoil) and the roots further down just focus on sucking up water. if the roots that suck up the food aren't getting water then they aren't sucking in the nutrients made in the topsoil and the roots down below are only sucking up water and burning leaves to stay alive.

I usually take my time when watering each plant and let the water soak in before I add more, so hopefully thats not the issue. They do look really hungry though... Going to folier feed tomorrow as well so hopefully that helps

 

[corky1968]

2 lbs of lime per plant all at once sound like too much.

I think I would add 1/2 ounce per plant every few days while testing the soil pH.

The last thing you want to do is overshoot your pH mark or burn your plants.

 

[slownickel]

If you distribute it well, over 30 inches diameter, your pH will only increase slightly.

Given you have added P and N and gotten no response, I am pretty sure you have an air problem. A lot of your native soil has mixed with your organic material and you are having a pretty acid environment I would imagine from the looks of the organic material present, plants etc.. that I saw in your photos.

What did your tester tell you?

You can send a sample to the US pretty cheap and would have results in a week. PM me if you are interested. Stop guessing.

 

[slownickel]

Corky,

Have you ever seen a burn from calcium, really? Please explain. I apply dosages much higher than this to push numbers and have never seen a burn. I have seen induced deficiencies of things that were already deficient, but that is to be expected. That is just part of tending the issues.

 

[corky1968]

Corky,

Have you ever seen a burn from calcium, really? Please explain. I apply dosages much higher than this to push numbers and have never seen a burn. I have seen induced deficiencies of things that were already deficient, but that is to be expected. That is just part of tending the issues.

Hydrated lime (Calcium hydroxide) they sell at my local hydroponic store will drive the pH to 12.4 and will burn and even kill us.

BTW: Lime (Calcium hydroxide) and limestone (Calcium carbonate) isn't the same thing.

Hydrated lime is more soluble so less is needed than limestone.

 

[Flanagani89]

If you distribute it well, over 30 inches diameter, your pH will only increase slightly.

Given you have added P and N and gotten no response, I am pretty sure you have an air problem. A lot of your native soil has mixed with your organic material and you are having a pretty acid environment I would imagine from the looks of the organic material present, plants etc.. that I saw in your photos.

What did your tester tell you?

You can send a sample to the US pretty cheap and would have results in a week. PM me if you are interested. Stop guessing.

I'm about to test pH tomorrow, although I'm not quite sure on the best method to do so yet. Just bought a 70 dollar tester today.

 

[slownickel]

Hydrated lime (Calcium hydroxide) they sell at my local hydroponic store will drive the pH to 12.4 and will burn and even kill us.

BTW: Lime (Calcium hydroxide) and limestone (Calcium carbonate) isn't the same thing.

Hydrated lime is more soluble so less is needed than limestone.

Corky,

I didn't recommend calcium hydroxide, nor calcium oxide, nor calcium nitrate, nor calcium phosphate, what did I recommend?

Calcium carbonate, gypsum and calcium lactate.

 

[corky1968]

Corky,

I didn't recommend calcium hydroxide, nor calcium oxide, nor calcium nitrate, nor calcium phosphate, what did I recommend?

Calcium carbonate, gypsum and calcium lactate.

You initially said lime and not limestone. Sorry.

Good Luck

 

[slownickel]

Flan,

Did you did down to see how wet it is?

I went over your time schedule, you started having problems 60 days after planting.

I think it is sopping wet at the bottom of that hole and anaerobic (no air).

If you don't want to dig, get a piece of construction rebar and jam it into the soil. If you grind a sharp point on it, better yet, easier to enter the soil. Stick it in down deep and pull it out. Feel the bar to see it it is wet or not and then smell it.

 

[Flanagani89]

Flan,

Did you did down to see how wet it is?

I went over your time schedule, you started having problems 60 days after planting.

I think it is sopping wet at the bottom of that hole and anaerobic (no air).

If you don't want to dig, get a piece of construction rebar and jam it into the soil. If you grind a sharp point on it, better yet, easier to enter the soil. Stick it in down deep and pull it out. Feel the bar to see it it is wet or not and then smell it.

Let me give you a rundown on my site to give you a more detailed picture.

So the area that I'm growing in sits on a raised elevation from the rest of the land (I guess you could call it a hill if you like).

There are two spots at this location where I have my plants (50/50 split). One is at the lower elevation of the two (which I assume used to be a pasture 100 years ago or so), pretty much an overgrown field that contains a wetland right next to it (never standing water throughout the year, but indicator species as well as a spongy feel when stepped on) I have half of my plants right next to this adjacent area.

Where I am growing my other plants is an area about 50 ft higher in elevation from the others... there is a pretty good slope as well. these plants are also effected, however much less then the ones at the lower elevation what supports what your saying

In mid March - early April when I dug the holes at the lower elevation there was around 3 inches of so of water that collected at the bottom. As water table receded in the next couple of weeks the holes became bone dry however. When I did actually fill the holes it was after 3 or 4 days of heavy rain, and the holes didn't have any standing water in them, which would mean the native soil drained somewhat decently?

I'm pretty sure that the water table in the northeast is in the highest during the spring time so I don't see how it could rise back up and flood my roots. We also had a slight drought up here recently so the water table should be pretty low.

I'm pretty terrible at communicating my thoughts clearly so let me know if what I said above makes any sense haha. I just figured that if my mix drains well and the native soil drains somewhat well, I shouldn't have water pooling at the roots.

regardless, I will look for something I can stab into the soil tomorrow.

 

[Flanagani89]

Wish I had one of those soil sampler probes we used during field biology last year, that shit would be perfect.

 

[Granger2]

Slow Nickle is dishing out a good bit of sound advice. I disagree on a thing or 2 though. First, drop the lime/limestone. Just go with gypsum. Best bet would be to use "Solution Grade" Gypsum as a top dress. I would apply every couple of weeks and observe.

Or you could dig plant out, put temporarily in pot. You'll lose a lot of roots so there is risk. Dig your gypsum, preferably add a lot of perlite, into the soil you had added in the beginning, return to hole, replant the plant. Good luck. -granger

 

[slownickel]

Granger,

My first thoughts were with you. What I am most afraid of is that this soil is acid, very acid.

Look at our clues. Rainy area. Chances are he has water full of bicarbonates as his soil is sealing up and chances are it is acidic water from a well. The higher area has less of a problem than the bottom area, the bottom area will most likely be a more anaerobic area as it is marshy... note the response to walking on it.

Rainy areas are acidic. All the calcium is washed away.

The idea of the lime on the surface will only raise the pH a bit. It is only 2.6 mt/ha, which is a small dosis, as is the gypsum. Typically for acid soils, we need at least 6 to 10 mt/ha to move things. I was just calculating enough to get a response.

My jist is that the roots are rotting from lack of air. If the top soil is crusting or sealing, imagine down below.

Ph won't tell us about air space. Smelling the probe from what comes up from down deep will give us an idea quickly.

His irrigation times sound like he is filling that hole with water. Sure there is drainage, but if the place is a marsh, imagine how it holds water.

Lots of the older leaves are drooping, yet stems in the air. Over watering. There are leaf tips with burning that go up and burning that go down. That has me wondering about high K, makes the roots rot even faster, making breakdown.

And last if not least, there is the big A. Aluminum. I have worked a great part of my life in Central America, Honduras, Guatemala, Costa Rica, Nicaragua and El Salvador. Acid soils are tough. Aluminum toxicity makes uptake of everything crash. This occurs mainly in acid soils for the most part, especially where it rains more than there is evaporation. I have aluminum toxicity here in Peru on alkaline soils due to bicarbonate influences. Took me years to understand the dynamic between bicarbonates and aluminum toxicity in alkaline soils. Was written about by Breazall at the Univ. of Arizona in 1929.... not much since. Aluminum hydroxides.... who figured. More toxic at times than acid forms. Not the issue here though. Pretty sure Flan has acid soil. All that run off will when it rains, will be dumping in more acid from the french drain he made to plant in.... (sorry for the humor).

Here there were conifers, acid lovers. There was a branch of what looked like a spruce in there...

For $40 or so, we could get a soil analysis from a real lab in the US and know the answer in 7 days if he is in Europe.....

 

[Flanagani89]

finally was able to check on my site before I headed to work. yesterday (I work nights unfortunately)

Probed the soil all the way to the base of the holes on 4 of my plants (in the lower spot). Probe came up dry, even through we had a good amount of rain in the past few days. Soil also had that good "fresh" soil smell. applied 2 handfuls of gypsum and about 2 ozs of lime and watered it in with the milk solution.

Just got done testing the pH which was interesting... First I tested the pH of the distilled water I would use to test the pH of my soil, turned out to be 7.4 which was strange. I Then tested my solution of soil/distilled water, came out to a 7.3.

after this I tested the pH of my well water (just from the faucet). That came out to a 7.9!

I figured my pH meter was defected, however I then tested orange juice (3.9), and some seltzer (4.2) so it must be somewhat accurate?

Maybe I'm dealing with an alkaline issue then?

 

[Flanagani89]

Just wanted to say thanks to all who taken some interest in this thread. I cant believe how many intelligent and passionate people there are on this site that are willing to help idiots out, such as myself.

Granger,

My first thoughts were with you. What I am most afraid of is that this soil is acid, very acid.

Look at our clues. Rainy area. Chances are he has water full of bicarbonates as his soil is sealing up and chances are it is acidic water from a well. The higher area has less of a problem than the bottom area, the bottom area will most likely be a more anaerobic area as it is marshy... note the response to walking on it.

Rainy areas are acidic. All the calcium is washed away.

The idea of the lime on the surface will only raise the pH a bit. It is only 2.6 mt/ha, which is a small dosis, as is the gypsum. Typically for acid soils, we need at least 6 to 10 mt/ha to move things. I was just calculating enough to get a response.

My jist is that the roots are rotting from lack of air. If the top soil is crusting or sealing, imagine down below.

Ph won't tell us about air space. Smelling the probe from what comes up from down deep will give us an idea quickly.

His irrigation times sound like he is filling that hole with water. Sure there is drainage, but if the place is a marsh, imagine how it holds water.

Lots of the older leaves are drooping, yet stems in the air. Over watering. There are leaf tips with burning that go up and burning that go down. That has me wondering about high K, makes the roots rot even faster, making breakdown.

And last if not least, there is the big A. Aluminum. I have worked a great part of my life in Central America, Honduras, Guatemala, Costa Rica, Nicaragua and El Salvador. Acid soils are tough. Aluminum toxicity makes uptake of everything crash. This occurs mainly in acid soils for the most part, especially where it rains more than there is evaporation. I have aluminum toxicity here in Peru on alkaline soils due to bicarbonate influences. Took me years to understand the dynamic between bicarbonates and aluminum toxicity in alkaline soils. Was written about by Breazall at the Univ. of Arizona in 1929.... not much since. Aluminum hydroxides.... who figured. More toxic at times than acid forms. Not the issue here though. Pretty sure Flan has acid soil. All that run off will when it rains, will be dumping in more acid from the french drain he made to plant in.... (sorry for the humor).

Here there were conifers, acid lovers. There was a branch of what looked like a spruce in there...

For $40 or so, we could get a soil analysis from a real lab in the US and know the answer in 7 days if he is in Europe.....

It is a rainy area, but not in the summer, especially not this one.. The northeast USA was in a slight drought up until 2 weeks ago.

I don't believe there are bicarbonates in my well water, however we never had a water analysis so I'm really not sure. Not sure if this means anything regarding bicarbonates, but I live in a extremely rural setting and my well is very deep haha. Ive been drinking it straight out of the faucet since I was 3 and it tastes extremely clean.. however it is on the slightly hard water side... (alkaline pH??)

Plants on the least elevation side are beside the marshy area, not in it, no wetland indicator species or that marshy feel whatsoever where they are growing.

 

[Flanagani89]

Slow Nickle is dishing out a good bit of sound advice. I disagree on a thing or 2 though. First, drop the lime/limestone. Just go with gypsum. Best bet would be to use "Solution Grade" Gypsum as a top dress. I would apply every couple of weeks and observe.

Or you could dig plant out, put temporarily in pot. You'll lose a lot of roots so there is risk. Dig your gypsum, preferably add a lot of perlite, into the soil you had added in the beginning, return to hole, replant the plant. Good luck. -granger

these plants are over 6 feet tall so I think I would cause to much of a shock to the plant if I dug them up... Especially since they are flowering. pretty much at the point of no return now

 

[slownickel]

Flan,

Given that pH you are reporting, it is highly likely that the water has bicarbonates. How much? No clue.

You mentioned hard water. Is there a scale build up in the sink? or shower head? White crusts?

If your plants are dry, well, maybe they need a lot more water that you think.

Nothing beats a good soil analysis though.

At that pH, your P availability is very low. A foliar P application would probably do wonders.

 

[Xanode]

Gypsum and lime, 2 lbs each on top, well distributed over a 30" RADIUS. Wash it in. Apply 30 grams of powdered milk in drench too.

Out of interest whats the powdered milk for?

 

[slownickel]

Lots of calcium and phosphorus with pure amino acids and a bunch of carbos, low conductivity.