Cannabis? In TEXAS?!
- Thread starter Payaso
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My my my how times have changed. That there statement used to be a HUGE oxymoron. LOL
True that Hydro-Soil. In these next coming years I don't doubt that Texas reverts back to its Liberal roots.
That's Real Liberalism (ie Classical Liberalism). Not the manifestation of "Social Liberalism" from the 1960's that California is enjoying so much right now.
That's Real Liberalism (ie Classical Liberalism). Not the manifestation of "Social Liberalism" from the 1960's that California is enjoying so much right now.
Yeah, that social liberalism is such a pain, ain't it? California is just going to the dogs, no?
Too much freedom in Cali. Some people just can't handle it...
Liberal is such a bad, loaded word anymore, is it any wonder Libertarians don't change their name?
Give me social liberalism over economic libertarianism any day.
Economic Libertarianism as promoted today is nothing short of Fascism, imo. It's simply a license to loot the people - what you've seen happening since Reagan took power (and continuing thru Bush and Obama today). Part and parcel of the "trickle down" theory, that was nothing more than a LIE.
Yeah, that social liberalism is such a pain, ain't it? California is just going to the dogs, no?
Too much freedom in Cali. Some people just can't handle it...
"Our wallet is empty, our bank is closed and our credit is dried up."
- Arnold Schwarzenegger, Summer 2009
Yea.. I don't think the problem in Cali is "too much freedom" lol
Liberal and libertarian are totally different as understood in the modern sense. As elluded to by spastic Classic liberalism (wich was close to modern libertarians) is dead (in the USA). Modern liberalism or as spastic referred to it as social liberalism has nothing to do with protecting personal freedoms. People commonly misunderstand these terms.
Social liberalism imo is engineered society.. It takes away from the choices and decisions that seperate us from each other. Many people think that 'people are to stupid'. Sometimes I find myself thinking this as well. I have faith that people would much rather make there own choices than have someone decide what choices they have available to them. That is if they have any choices at all.
Social liberalism imo is engineered society.. It takes away from the choices and decisions that seperate us from each other. Many people think that 'people are to stupid'. Sometimes I find myself thinking this as well. I have faith that people would much rather make there own choices than have someone decide what choices they have available to them. That is if they have any choices at all.
Yeah, that social liberalism is such a pain, ain't it? California is just going to the dogs, no?
Too much freedom in Cali. Some people just can't handle it...
Liberal is such a bad, loaded word anymore, is it any wonder Libertarians don't change their name?
Give me social liberalism over economic libertarianism any day.
Economic Libertarianism as promoted today is nothing short of Fascism, imo. It's simply a license to loot the people - what you've seen happening since Reagan took power (and continuing thru Bush and Obama today). Part and parcel of the "trickle down" theory, that was nothing more than a LIE.
This makes me very sad. Ayn Rand's "Capitalism, The Unknown Ideal." published 50 or so years ago explains economics and government intervention.
I personally have no interest in any ISM that doesn't want to shrink the government's percentage of total economic production.
We don't need rules, we don't need nanny states, we need personal responsibility.
Social Liberalism is a myth, and I don't see CA citizens enjoying more freedoms than WA, OR, or NV citizens, but 90% pay to retired state workers can't be paid with smoke outs on hippy hill or IOUs despite everyone loving everyone else.
Government is the problem.
No argument there bro. True libertarianism in a state's economic policy will only manifest itself as anarchy. We see it manifesting itself as Global Fascism today. The epicenter of which is the US.
That's why I always am beating my USA Fascist drum. Because that is what we are today. Nazi f'ing Germany with an American Flag. A super sophisticated hate machine.
"Social Liberalism" from the 1960's is a philosophical mirage IMO. Never in the world's history has a government been able to control anything because they always, always fall victim to special interest (money $$). A totalitarin state control will always manifest itself as oppressive and destructive towards the governed people.
I believe we will see the rise of a new form of political philosophy during the next several years. "Progressive Libertarian" is what I see coming from the ashes of our inevitable collapse. A free people with governmental economic controls that actually police fraud is our only answer. This country is so far gone down the rabbit hole that revolution will be our only way out. Revolution by implication dicates the collapse of the system in which we now live. How we get there is going to be a strange ride though. In the end we are just simple creatures stuck the washing machine of the cycle of civilization.
^spot on
You need to actually LIVE in a liberal socialist society to understand that there are several excellent examples that are very successful and ongoing today. Just not the USA although California comes closest.
Have you ever lived in Sweden? The Netherlands? France? Spain?
If not then it's likely you don't even understand modern socialism and have been conditioned to think it's something else. All those countries have great public medical systems (as well as private). Well spain does lag as always.
Ask Jorge Cervantes about Spain. Unfortunately those countries also represent extremes in their attitudes towards cannabis with Sweden and France being very conservative, the Netherlands and Spain very liberal. I suppose some people here think that liberal Netherlands and Spain must be bad countries cause they're so socialist...allowing ppl to grow and smoke cannabis...
Think of it this way. California is the Spain of the US now. The only reason it's doing bad economically is its Republican governor only wants to lower taxes, refuses to raise taxes on the rich or corporations. Everybody wants something for nothing. Let's go back to Eisenhower's 92% tax rate for awhile. Then people won't think raising taxes just a bit is such a bad thing.
Have you ever lived in Sweden? The Netherlands? France? Spain?
If not then it's likely you don't even understand modern socialism and have been conditioned to think it's something else. All those countries have great public medical systems (as well as private). Well spain does lag as always.
Ask Jorge Cervantes about Spain. Unfortunately those countries also represent extremes in their attitudes towards cannabis with Sweden and France being very conservative, the Netherlands and Spain very liberal. I suppose some people here think that liberal Netherlands and Spain must be bad countries cause they're so socialist...allowing ppl to grow and smoke cannabis...
Think of it this way. California is the Spain of the US now. The only reason it's doing bad economically is its Republican governor only wants to lower taxes, refuses to raise taxes on the rich or corporations. Everybody wants something for nothing. Let's go back to Eisenhower's 92% tax rate for awhile. Then people won't think raising taxes just a bit is such a bad thing.
To answer your question Skip no I have not lived in all those places. If youll notice I wasnt talking about european countries with my comment. If you see california as a good example of modern socialism, then I think we simply see things differently. I see there unsustainable spending/taxing as suicidal at best.
Im not sure why medical is being brought into this discussion but if you would like to compare texas and californias insurance rates we can do that. I believe you will find Texas has a much more competitive market as well as better prices.
Im not sure if you understand modern American Socialism but its not european socialism. Maybe you have been conditioned to believe such but ... seems rather obvious. We have a different approach to politics and have since the founding of the country.
Lastly, I believe that people need to educate themselves about natural rights. Once the concept is understood legalization is a given. Natural rights is considered a libertarian concept when in reality its simply a human concept. Is it your position that socialism = legalization?
The real difference we are talking about bears upon the cannabis debate in California as well as society in general.
Do we want freedom for business (to do what ever they want at whatever cost to society without sufficient legal oversight) or...
Do we want individual freedoms guaranteed by our government, and protection from greedy, irresponsible businesses.
The California Initiative tries to balance both, by reinforcing individual freedom to use cannabis without needing a prescription - recreational use, while allowing big business to dominate the production and distribution of cannabis and limiting the ability of individuals or small business to compete with them.
Most people in California seem to want the freedom to grow whatever they want and not have so many more regulations that only benefit big business.
So it's a direct conflict between economic liberalism favoring business at the expense of the people, and individual right to not be criminalized for loving and propagating a very useful plant.
Do we want freedom for business (to do what ever they want at whatever cost to society without sufficient legal oversight) or...
Do we want individual freedoms guaranteed by our government, and protection from greedy, irresponsible businesses.
The California Initiative tries to balance both, by reinforcing individual freedom to use cannabis without needing a prescription - recreational use, while allowing big business to dominate the production and distribution of cannabis and limiting the ability of individuals or small business to compete with them.
Most people in California seem to want the freedom to grow whatever they want and not have so many more regulations that only benefit big business.
So it's a direct conflict between economic liberalism favoring business at the expense of the people, and individual right to not be criminalized for loving and propagating a very useful plant.
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Skip can you explain why these are mutually exclusive. Why must you take away freedom from businesses to give it to a individual. Are people in, and that own business not individuals as well?
I find this seperation rather disturbing and it seems to be part of the socialist/liberal playbook. We are all individuals rather you work for or own a business (most of us do).
Most people want freedom from regulations... rather they be business or private individuals. The fact is that your liberal/socialist state goverment you like so much was never going to unregulate and legalize. We both know that. I dont like regulations but I find it funny as hell that you think they are only to benefit cooperations and businesses.
Regulations are the reason cannibas is illegal I certainly dont support them but to each there own.
Funny thing is I was going to say they aren't mutually exclusive, normally. However due to politics, they tend to be. When you have tons of money coming from business to buy political favors, or in the case of California's Initiative, to create your own law to cater to your business, it usually means the people are being robbed of certain freedoms or will just get ripped off - in this case by Big cannabis monopolies who will attempt to control prices and dictate the laws for the rest of us.
What everyone should be wondering about - esp in Cali, is why did we let a few businesses (the gang of four) dictate this law that we must all follow if it passes?
It's no different than the energy companies meeting in secret with Dick Cheney to craft new laws to favor them, at the consumer's expense. Or Goldman Sachs & other bank execs meeting with Obama and Geitner to ensure they got bailed out at our expense.
In theory they are not mutually exclusive, but American Big businesses want profits no matter the costs to the American public. And they have the money to buy what they want. We just have the vote, which becomes meaningless once the elected official takes office and is faced with piles of special interest money from Big biz.
What everyone should be wondering about - esp in Cali, is why did we let a few businesses (the gang of four) dictate this law that we must all follow if it passes?
It's no different than the energy companies meeting in secret with Dick Cheney to craft new laws to favor them, at the consumer's expense. Or Goldman Sachs & other bank execs meeting with Obama and Geitner to ensure they got bailed out at our expense.
In theory they are not mutually exclusive, but American Big businesses want profits no matter the costs to the American public. And they have the money to buy what they want. We just have the vote, which becomes meaningless once the elected official takes office and is faced with piles of special interest money from Big biz.
Kinda sidestepped my point bro. The point I was trying to make is the gang of 4 are people.
Now I understand concerns about the influence of lobbies but realize that is part of our freedom of speech. Most people misunderstand the concept of lobbying. Did you know if you walk up to a representative and make a suggestion or give a opinion and hope that suggestion or opinion is considered you have lobbied that politician. I dont believe that because someone is successful we should limit there freedom of speech. One of the advantages to being successful in this country is your influence broadens.
Socialism would not solve this problem. It would only move the power from the 'rich' to the beurocrats and politicians. Id rather have people who worked there ass off to accel have more influence than goverment employees.
I think another important thing to note is that lobbies are on all sides of the fence , hell some are on both. George Soros has used his money/power to lobby hard for the medical marijuana community for instance. He also supports many things I dont like but I believe he should have the right to support whatever he likes rather I do or not.
If not for his powerful lobbying I doubt that some states would have a medical marijuana law. Jack was a strong voice but without money that voice wont reach many ears.
Id just like to clarify that bribes buyouts and political favors is not lobbying
If not for his powerful lobbying I doubt that some states would have a medical marijuana law. Jack was a strong voice but without money that voice wont reach many ears.
Id just like to clarify that bribes buyouts and political favors is not lobbying
I haven't lived in those countries. I've spent a few weeks in Grenada, Spain. I do love siesta time.
My best friend in Singapore was from was France. Here is the thing about California. They are bankrupt because of their policies. To blame it all on one governor is a bit simple. I'm not sticking up for him. He's a joke. He's an actor. You get what you pay for lol. The problem is multi-generational in the making though. Spain is going bankrupt too at the moment BTW.
The problem that I see with Social Liberalism is that you are trying to get something for nothing in the long run. As populations age and the Social Liberal State ages the state always ends up promising more than it can pay out. Like Greece. Another Social Liberal state that is bankrupt.
They make for great little utopia's while they are working, but in the end they always fail and a government that gives you everything can and will always take it away according to the history books. But, to be fair no political system has been found that really protects the people over a long period of time (+200 years). They all seem to crap out right about then. The original American Experiment was supposed to be that. It hasn't really worked out all that great either.
T
texsativa
There is no caxibus in Texas.
Wait. What?
Wait. What?
"We are all individuals rather you work for or own a business (most of us do)."
No (most of us dont).
But as I read your politics it became very clear that you do and what your political views are set up to protect.
Ive noticed that anytime anything is given to the workers the people that run the businesses get upset about it.And to be honest it seems to be the small businesses that get the most upset about it.I guess the farther down the foodchain you get the more vicious you have to be to hang on to what you have.
Another atittude I often notice when dealing with politics is the older people feel a need to make the younger "earn" whatever they can get.Allways talking about how easy they have it now when in truth we now that is a load of B.S..Things are harder now.And what generation was it that dropped the ball anyway?
Just like anything else the only way we will find a political system that works for everybody is to somehow not think all of our petty greed into it.But who the hell knows if that is actually posible.
You ever see one of those documentarys about one of those lost citys in south america or somewhere and the town looks like everybody just got up and left?Alot of these have no mention in history on what happened to them.They just disapeared.
Sometimes it makes you wonder.
And sorry about my spelling.
No (most of us dont).
But as I read your politics it became very clear that you do and what your political views are set up to protect.
Ive noticed that anytime anything is given to the workers the people that run the businesses get upset about it.And to be honest it seems to be the small businesses that get the most upset about it.I guess the farther down the foodchain you get the more vicious you have to be to hang on to what you have.
Another atittude I often notice when dealing with politics is the older people feel a need to make the younger "earn" whatever they can get.Allways talking about how easy they have it now when in truth we now that is a load of B.S..Things are harder now.And what generation was it that dropped the ball anyway?
Just like anything else the only way we will find a political system that works for everybody is to somehow not think all of our petty greed into it.But who the hell knows if that is actually posible.
You ever see one of those documentarys about one of those lost citys in south america or somewhere and the town looks like everybody just got up and left?Alot of these have no mention in history on what happened to them.They just disapeared.
Sometimes it makes you wonder.
And sorry about my spelling.
