CANNABIS CLASSIFICATION METHODS

[Sam_Skunkman]

Just a thought but isn't plant classification done in Latin? WLD and NLD etc are English... why should the classification of cannabis be in English?

The classification is in English because I speak English, the taxonomic Classification system can be translated to any and all languages as the system will work exactly the same regardless of the language.

Lo entiendes?

-SamS

 

[El Timbo]

The classification is in English because I speak English, the taxonomic Classification system can be translated to any and all languages as the system will work exactly the same regardless of the language.

Lo entiendes?

-SamS

Isn't the idea of standardised Latin classification that botanists from all over the word can use the same name for each plant to avoid confusion? Then lay people from each country/language are free to use their common names...

Cannabis Sativa and Cannabis Indica are what is in use, all of the rest of the proposal was descriptions not in Latin get it? -SamS

edit: maybe I'm missing something... so this isn't proposed as a scientific classification then?

No it is a work in progress it is nowhere near finished. When completed yes it will be scientific classification and more. -SamS

 

[Roms]

I never used TLC for analysis I used GC-Fid or HPLC what was the level of THC:THCV? I cannot tell. Most ganja growers select against THCV and keep the seeds of the plants they smoke and like the best. THCV is not psychoactive it is a CB1 antagonist, Hash makers that dry sift whole fields keep the seeds from plants with the most resin regardless of what the resin is because they do not smoke individual plants they have no idea if it is THC, CBD, THCV or what -SamS

Alright the THCV isn't really psychoactive in itself but it's a marker of the THC potency! And the most resiner plants are often the most potent, quite logic.

I never saw that THCV is a marker for THC do you have a reference for that? Also if you are looking for the minor Cannabinoids the most resinous plants will have little THC, I have plants that smell wonderful, are resinous as hell and have almost zero THC. Regardless of your logic. -SamS

The Mazar test is not precise but informative, around 20% of THC and 2:1 ratio with THCV. Quasi zéro CBD!!! And given the amount of CBG it means a not well mature bud harvest so up % in truth. I wonder with what strain or origin you also found this kind of result? Well with a landrace without selection it's more relative so and not easy to find winners pheno/chemotype. For example with the Thai, please how are your cannabinoids best % results?

To be honest I doubt the plant was 40%-50% cannabinoids by weight but if you say the THC was 20% and say the THCV was 10% in a 2/1 ratio what about the spots for CBC, CBG, CBD, CBN? I would say (if you are correct) the plant must be 20% THC, 10% THCV, at least 10% CBG, 10% CBD, as well as some CBC, and some CBN so the Cannabinoid content was over 50%??? That can not be, I suggest the values were all much less than you think.
But regardless our goal was a THCV variety with over 15% with little to no other Cannabinoids and we know our analysis was correct we used both GC-Fid and HPLC on all samples. We did not find any Cannabis variety with more than 5% THCV but we are clever plant breeders that could use them as parents to make the final selection 4 years later with just over 15% THCV. We did selections involving hundreds of plants for each of the 4 landrace varieties that were the parents of our THCV variety, and we did these selections each year with each variety to achieve what we did. It was not easy but we did do it, if we had a 10% THCV variety it could have been easier but what was more important was to have 4 THCV lines that were unrelated for the methods we used, we had that, but none were over 5% THCV when we got them.
-SamS

 

[therevverend]

Isn't classifying cannabis botanically by psychoactivity as mistaken as classifying by leaf width? Or any other select trait? Considering the plasticity of the plant, how quickly it changes. In a few generations you can change a strain high in THC to CBD and back. Cannabis Indica and Cannabis Sativa are Linnaean classification terms. Whether you break them down to Cannabis Indica Chinensis or Cannabis Sativa Spontennea depends on the ancestry of the plant, it's genetic makeup.

I helped RCC and MM with their ideas, and they borrowed the NLD & NLH system from Karl Hillig whom I gave a grant to fund his Taxonomy Classification work, I do not care what you think you read or what they wrote, Indica is high THC be it WLD or NLD to me. Sativa is Hemp probably from Europe/Russia I think. Time will tell, but regardless the old Indica/Sativa is dead replaced by a system based on DNA, Form, Type 1,2,3,4,5,6, Cannabinoid contents and terpene contents as well as sexual forms.

I have collected NLH types in Asia with low THC are they really Indica? I doubt it. Cannabis Taxonomy Classification is full of contradictions, but I am attempting to help create a system that makes sense and is usable so that by looking at a varieties Classification you have a better idea what it can be used for, where it can be grown, and what and where it came from. We keep getting closer and closer.

-SamS

I helped RCC and MM with their ideas, and they borrowed the NLD & NLH system from Karl Hillig whom I gave a grant to fund his Taxonomy Classification work, I do not care what you think you read or what they wrote, Indica is high THC be it WLD or NLD to me

If you gave them a grant to study cannabis botany you damn well should care about the results they find! You're saying because you're The Authority you can throw out science and you can arbitrarily decide your own pet classification scheme? Very disappointing. And what I THINK I read? I've got their book open in front of me I know what I read. What sort of fucking tone is that to take with someone?

Reread what I said " I do not care what you think you read or what they wrote"--SamS This was not aimed at you, it was aimed at the whole world including RCC my best friend

 

[therevverend]

Here's a link to a PDF of the book. I'm sorry your naughty little students are contradicting the deep knowledge of their wise enlightened master. I'd think of all people you'd welcome a civil discussion about cannabis botany without using strawman gimimicks and insulting language. You think...

I have their book also-SamS

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/275175754_Cannabis_Evolution_and_Ethnobotany

Look, you can say 'all hemp types are hemp' and 'all high THC types are called drug types'. I assume this is why you're saying 'Sativa and Indica' are obsolete. It has nothing to do with 'broad leaf' or 'narrow leaf'. It doesn't take a great mind to figure this out. But this has nothing to do with botany. It's 'use driven'..

I am including use in my Classification I think it is useful for breeders. -SamS

 

[therevverend]

Here's some info out of Cannabis: Evolution and Ethnobotany that some people may find useful. I know Sam disagrees and hates it but let's pretend that BLH really is Cannabis Indica. And Eurasian hemp is the only Cannabis Sativa.

'Presently the allele that facilitates THC biosynthesis (BT) and the one that results in CBD synthesis (BD) are found in both C. Sativa and C. Indica. However, the BT allele is weakly expressed in C. Sativa and the BD is more strongly expressed. While in C. Indica, although the BD allele is also expressed, the BT allele is always expressed at a higher level then it is in C. Sativa, even in East Asian Wide Leaf Hemp varieties. Possibly the BT allele did not exist in the proto-sativa or earliest C. Sativa gene pools before the introduction of drug varieties from the East. This could explain why we have found no confirmed evidence of early European people using Cannabis for drug purposes-because European Narrow Leaf Hemp Ancestor and Narrow Leaf Hemp did not contain any psychoactive THC until much later in history (ca. 4000-3000 years before present), when drug varieties were introduced from western Asia. Over time, introgressions may have led the B1 allele appearance in the European Narrow Leaf Hemp Ancestor and European Narrow Leaf Hemp gene pools, as well as in the purported Cannabis Ruderalis, which is recorded in taxonomic studies.

I know there's a lot of speculation we can debate about but it shows why how we classify cannabis is important. Why it's important to understand the botany and why whimsical classification schemes based on superficial traits detract from understanding.

Do you understand my Cannabis Classification Methods is a work in progress? Not only to Classify but also to help breeders know if any one variety is useful for their work? -SamS

I should edit one more time, to say I wasn't being sarcastic in my first post. I genuinely believed there might have been a change in cannabis classification or botany, maybe a new genetic discovery that Sam knew about but I didn't. Which is why I was surprised when he came on like a surly old curmudgeon..

You can reply as you see fit and you did but I will not change my views because of you. Maybe I can be as kind as you are?

BTW I am a surly old curmudgeon don't get yer panties in a twist. -SamS

 

[Roms]

Liste d'espèces acceptées ou synonymes, selon Tropicos (4 févr. 2013)13 :

• Cannabis americana Pharm. ex Wehmer
• Cannabis chinensis Delile
• Cannabis erratica Siev.
• Cannabis faetens Gilib.
• Cannabis generalis E.H.L. Krause
• Cannabis gigantea Crevost
• Cannabis indica Lam.
• Cannabis intersita Soják
• Cannabis kafiristanica (Vavilov) Chrtek (indica ancestor?)
• Cannabis lupulus Scop.
• Cannabis macrosperma Stokes
• Cannabis ruderalis Janisch.
• Cannabis sativa L.

+ varius Afghanica like the Mazar
+ etc...

I am familar with all of these and many more, but they are outdated and not really in use except for Indica and Sativa and Ruderalis.
-SamS

 

[Roms]

edit 2020 ++

https://www.tropicos.org/nameSearch?name=cannabis

I like this a collection of the Historical Taxonomy Classification of Cannabis but most are no longer used, I am more personally interested in the future.
-SamS

 

[Roms]

I never saw that THCV is a marker for THC do you have a reference for that? Also if you are looking for the minor Cannabinoids the most resinous plants will have little THC, I have plants that smell wonderful, are resinous as hell and have almost zero THC. Regardless of your logic. -SamS

THCV has a lot of body and medecine effects, and little bit psychoactive too. The last studies found that.
I smoked 100% pure THCV and can assure you it was no more Psychoactive than CBD, which is not.-SamS
Ya i was thinking "in situ" in nature and not in laboratory where quasi all combination are possible.

To be honest I doubt the plant was 40%-50% cannabinoids by weight but if you say the THC was 20% and say the THCV was 10% in a 2/1 ratio what about the spots for CBC, CBG, CBD, CBN? I would say (if you are correct) the plant must be 20% THC, 10% THCV, at least 10% CBG, 10% CBD, as well as some CBC, and some CBN so the Cannabinoid content was over 50%??? That can not be, I suggest the values were all much less than you think.

-SamS

I would say approximatively 8% THCV ? Quasi no CBD or CBN but high CBG and CBC. But yes very relative i don't have the real % result. Test from a friend.

Even 8% THCV would suggest 16% THC and similar amounts (8%)of CBG and CBC would push the total to 40% Cannabinoids, which is unheard of in herbal Cannabis, don't you see? -SamS

But regardless our goal was a THCV variety with over 15% with little to no other Cannabinoids and we know our analysis was correct we used both GC-Fid and HPLC on all samples. We did not find any Cannabis variety with more than 5% THCV but we are clever plant breeders that could use them as parents to make the final selection 4 years later with just over 15% THCV. We did selections involving hundreds of plants for each of the 4 landrace varieties that were the parents of our THCV variety, and we did these selections each year with each variety to achieve what we did. It was not easy but we did do it, if we had a 10% THC variety it could have been easier but what was more important was to have 4 THCV lines that were unrelated for the methods we used, we had that, but none were over 5% THCV when we got them.

Yes impressive process, respect and congratz bro! South African landrace used too?

Ya know how important and difficult is to find and select rare potent P1 specimen in a population. With the chance to find THCV specimen with over than 5% at start then you will hit even more the top 15%. Good suite to you, do you still select and explore some different landraces?

I am all but retired if I grow at all it will be for my own smoke I like dry sift and I need quite a bit of dry flowers to make a KG of 99.9% resin head hash that I like for my yearly use. I only get a few % of cleaned up pure resin heads from dry buds. -SamS

 

[zif]

Classification for whom?

If we are talking about about taxonomics, I'd love to see a comprehensive genetic approach. I prefer the more descriptive / less precedent-based modern nomenclature, but don't see how it ends the debate.

If we are talking about how the seed catalogs/breeders classify clones/varieties, it'd be nice to see even more emphasis on chemotypes and the closely related (sorry, don't know a better word for this) feel-o-types. For example:

Up ->
Trippy
Speedy
Motivational

Balanced ->
Thought-provoking
Euphoric
Relaxing

Down ->
Demotivational
Stupefying
Soporific

In the flower etc. marketplace, it's more of a branding problem. It will depend on the specific market, producers' willingness to educate, and regulatory burdens.

Across the board, it'd be nice if the name game / pedigree classification that many folks start and end with became much less emphasized. Clone by clone packs, maybe with a listed flowering time, are far too prevalent.

 

[Roms]

I like this a collection of the Historical Taxonomy Classification of Cannabis but most are no longer used, I am more personally interested in the future.
-SamS

Yes from the past to the future in the present, wisely all combined...

I smoked 100% pure THCV and can assure you it was no more Psychoactive than CBD, which is not.-SamS

Ok but hey you have a high tolerance to cannabinoids man!

Seriously it is also the combinations between cannabinoids that produce the differents effects, with a high THCV strain with low THC for the example, the psychoactive effects are "off" i think.

Even 8% THCV would suggest 16% THC and similar amounts (8%)of CBG and CBC would push the total to 40% Cannabinoids, which is unheard of in herbal Cannabis, don't you see? -SamS

Believe me ot not but i know that more than 50% THCV was found in laboratory, i will re found the source bye.

I am all but retired if I grow at all it will be for my own smoke I like dry sift and I need quite a bit of dry flowers to make a KG of 99.9% resin head hash that I like for my yearly use. I only get a few % of cleaned up pure resin heads from dry buds. -SamS

Mmmh dry sift is the best, by the pleasure to share some of my Mazar line, pure 70s oldschool potent vibes!

 

[El Timbo]

get it? -SamS

yes

 

[flylowgethigh]

I am a little confused about why a strain grown in low land will have one trait and take it up to higher elevations and it has another trait, Sativa down low, Indica up high. That came from one of the Strain Hunter episodes.

I am also under the opinion that once Indica or Kush or Sativa or... is vaped and the terps sucked off, the remaining material which is still green and high in actives, is all about the same no matter what strain was started with. Same color, same hardly any smell. Strong edibles effects.

I would love to have one of those gas analyzers to see what vapor is predominant after the terps have been sucked off at the start ov vaping, as that makes me and one friend who does the same vaping process, cough. Some kind of plant material maybe, that is starting to cook off. Chlorophyll that wasn't fully cured away maybe?

And don't start in about Kush just being another Indica. Don't care.

 

[Roms]

I am a little confused about why a strain grown in low land will have one trait and take it up to higher elevations and it has another trait, Sativa down low, Indica up high. That came from one of the Strain Hunter episodes.
(...)

Naturally at high altitude (+3000m micro climate) the plant become dwarf and the leaves expend, less atmospheric pressure process (?). Also due to UV there's more resin to protect the plant, like in the tropic or equator.

 

[TheForgotten]

.
I like dry sift and I need quite a bit of dry flowers to make a KG of 99.9% resin head hash that I like for my yearly use. I only get a few % of cleaned up pure resin heads from dry buds. -SamS

Speaking of which, when are we going to learn exactly how you do this?

 

[Roms]

Peace, another classification method that comes to mind is the different properties of the resin! Density, trichome sizes and the difference from oily to sticky...!

I don't know if the subject has already been specifically studied by scientists? SamS please?

From my little experience a simple classification is done between "indica" and "sativa", the result in order is oily or sticky!

(Well of course the question base must be apprehended and understood in relation to landraces!)

Thanks to @maninxtlvl and @3kom.research for the example illustration :

https://www.instagram.com/maninxtlvl/

 

[Roms]

Again i wonder if the altitude situation parameter has it already been studied? By Nikolai Vavilov maybe??

Next round will be for the N.A.S.A. high n' high


Resin heads, Trichome heads are definitely different sizes as well as different textures, and colors, but for classification you need to separate the Phenotypical expression from the Genotypical expression.

If you grow the same clone in different environmental conditions the resin will come out differently.
In general bigger plants of the same clone can yield bigger heads, Hotter temps will in general cause evaporation of some of the monoterpenes, colder temps will make smaller plants with smaller heads.
I have found that the dryness, stickiness, oiliness is very related to the terpene profile and %'s as well as the Cannabinoid contents. I have a way to rate resin by size and texture and color, it is not posted I will try and find it to post.
In general I like bigger heads as well as lots of them. There are also different types of trichome heads -SamS

 

[Roms]

for classification you need to separate the Phenotypical expression from the Genotypical expression.

If you grow the same clone in different environmental conditions the resin will come out differently.

Yeah that is the condition for the hybrids but with the landraces it is much more stable in principle, as you say the panorama and overview need to be separate in this way!

I have found that the dryness, stickiness, oiliness is very related to the terpene profile and %'s as well as the Cannabinoid contents.

Again true for hybrids but prior and firstly it's all about the genotype/chemotype. Landraces is the keystone base to well estimate the thing imho.

If you test a Landrace it is Heterozygous like all Cannabis, which means is not absolutely true-breeding or 100% Homozygous. Each plant has slightly different genes even if they as a population look very similar.
If Landraces were Homozygous then with reciprocal crosses of a landrace male and female clones it could be figured out fast, with Heterozygous parents that is not so easy at all.-SamS

The density and trichome size level are very related for example, the "pure indica" has bigger trichz with less density than the "pure sativa" smaller and more dense ones. Mininxtlvl's pics above explain the schema of that.

So less density and big trichz you have and more oily the resin is. I think that a proportion of the number of trichz per centimeter² could be consider for a classification analyse. In the same way to compare and classify their different morphology! By the pleasure to know your past and future interspecifics results SamS!

 

[KiefSweat]

to me as the grower critical night length is a key trait overlooked by most.


but its pretty easy to group varieties by latitude of origin and therefore flowering time, looks and effects has to much variance

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

to me as the grower critical night length is a key trait overlooked by most.


but its pretty easy to group varieties by latitude of origin and therefore flowering time, looks and effects has to much variance

This will lump drug and hemp varieties together!
-SamS