Can Liquid Karma cause increased leaf loss?

[otherwhitemeat]

Gang, been running the same clones for a year now (t44 and papaya). Four plants at a time, 250hps, FFOF, PBP nutes. I've had great results and usually get about 3-4 oz a month in yield from my cab going perpetual.


:Veg-30ml/G of PBP Veg and 5 ml/G of Cal/Mag, a few drops of Superthrive.
:Bloom-30 ml/G of PBP Bloom, Molasses in last 3 weeks
I feed every 2-3 days.

I did some reading on the site and decided to add Liquid Karma to my mix to hopefully get better yields/better quality. I understood that it could be used in Veg and through Bloom.

I started adding it at about 5 ml/G every other watering for about a month, not noticing a difference I stepped up to 5ml/G every watering. I kept up at this feeding regimen for a month (veg to flower)

My results were very poor. It seems that my plants have decided to drop most of their leaves. and they are no where near as trich-covered as my previous batches. They suck the leaves dry of N/P in a day and my plants were losing (on average) about 10-20 leaves a day. This happened in both Veg and Bloom. I realized that this wasn't the normal dropping of large fans mid flower. I was losing immature leaf sets that are no larger than 1/2 inch.

Since I stopped using Liquid Karma, the leaf drop has pretty much stopped and returned to normal. I am curious if I was not using it right? Too often? Not needed?

I was just hoping to increase my yields/quality a bit, but it seemed to have the exact opposite effect. Last yield was about 2.5 oz, way lower than my normal harvest. Any ideas?

 

[dub 6]

i am currently growing papaya... about 15 days into flowering (well one lady is, the others are a week in, just starting to show sex). 3 girls and 1 male in 2gal grow bags. I water every 2 days (sometimes 3) with 7ml/g PBP grow, 7ml/g Liquid Karma, 5ml/g CalMag, 10ml/g Kool Bloom (liquid 0-10-10), and a swig of blackstrap molasses (eye measured). I ran out of PBP bloom

in veg they were getting PBP grow, LQ, CalMag and Molasses in about the same amounts. (sometimes they got piss water with added Piranha).

They're growing in recycled FFOF with added sphagnum moss, fresh FFOF, and loads of Perlite. I pluck ashes in them every now and again... They seem to be growing fine.

I dont measure them acronyms (ec, tds, pH etc...) but i took a test of pH with some litmus and the color's between 6 and 7.

side shoots and leaves are bustin' outta everywhere... just trimmed'm for the first time today in fact.

this is my first grow of papaya so i have nothing to test it against.



Maybe you could use some CalMag in flower?

 

[blowwhole]

Sounds like you were burning them up. Go back to what you know works. Then do experiments on the side.

 

[PoopyTeaBags]

dude you may have got a bad bottle... its organic and if stored wrong will go bad fast... i would talk to your store... i didnt read everythign watchign the news but if you used bottle suggestions you shouldnt have a prob...

 

[Sleepy]

ouch

ouch

":Veg-30ml/G of PBP Veg and 5 ml/G of Cal/Mag, a few drops of Superthrive.
:Bloom-30 ml/G of PBP Bloom, Molasses in last 3 weeks
I feed every 2-3 days."

you have overfed them.

a long flush with plain pH adjusted water might save them. better yet, transplant into inert soilless mix and flush with plain pH adjusted water.

you are feeding too much too frequently.


you only need superthrive at 1 drop per gallon. or none at all.

 

[lordbudly]

":Veg-30ml/G of PBP Veg and 5 ml/G of Cal/Mag, a few drops of Superthrive.
:Bloom-30 ml/G of PBP Bloom, Molasses in last 3 weeks
I feed every 2-3 days."

you have overfed them.

a long flush with plain pH adjusted water might save them. better yet, transplant into inert soilless mix and flush with plain pH adjusted water.

you are feeding too much too frequently.


you only need superthrive at 1 drop per gallon. or none at all.

but it worked before...

 

[JITAMON]

BUSTED

BUSTED

Superthrive is the culprit.

 

[otherwhitemeat]

Wow, great to see this thread woke back up. Thanks y'all for the input. I'll try to post what I learned back then as it was probably THE MOST valuable lessons I've learned. We all fall, we all get back up in this hobby. What you learn after faliure advances your efforts by leaps and bounds.

I hope I can help others to avoid the same.

-Take good notes, here's a spreadsheet blank that I've been using to track nutes, flips, transplants, etc. Had I not had detailed records-I wouldn't have learned from this failure. I can't even remember what I ate for breakfast today, let alone whether I fed them once or twice this week.

-I am self sufficent and do a perpetual cab grow. For whatever reason, I left these plants in veg too long and kept trimming them back. Don't bother flowering out mothers, it's a waste of time. Take cuttings and grow them through their phases.

-Strain dependency warning: superthrive CAN be used in flower, contrary to what's been said on this board. Some strains reach for the stars. Some make fat juicy bugs. My Top 44 LOVES a few drops of ST in flower once a week and doesn't stretch. My Papaya; not so much--it goes for the light. Why, I dunno. Just does.

-Way too much LK, way too much. A buddy of mine uses it at full strength on some large sativas, for my purposes less would have been better. When you have a problem go back to where you started and simplify, the error becomes apparent. Throwing LK at plants that reliably give me 3-4 oz a month was greedy and just BAD KARMA, Karma can not be had in a bottle.

-I definately had some lockout issues early on. BUT the feeding regimen for my particular phenos was always painstaklingly noted. My Papayas ALWAYS throw a Cal def during late veg and eat ALOT before and during stretch. While I only veg them for two weeks, I almost know it's time to flip to 12/12 when the orange spots appear. Even though I 'ramp up' and have tried no nutes at all during veg, still happens. Just the strain I guess, once they reach week two of 12/12, Cal defs are GONE and we start seeing flowers

-If you have lower leaf loss like I did, it's one of two reasons: underfeeding and overfeeding. Almost always, OVERFEEDING. While I may have been feeding them heavily; it worked for quite a while--the tipping point was messing with my formula, getting greedy and throwing in LK. I flushed and flushed and flushed, these girls just shut down. At two months, they looked like they were at 2 weeks. They went onto the compost heap and I had to buy my first Oz in 18 months.

-FFOF sucks ass. And I mean sucks ass. While it was helpful to me as a newb; it has offered up some MAJOR quality control issues. I switched to LC mix and my plants look SOOO much better in comparison, have less defs and seem to be ready to yield more.


The good news is I recognized the problems and recovered rather quickly. I am expecting my next harvest on Sept 7. Growing your own can be a risk, but it is also rewarding. The things we learn on our own.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

I dunno...I have found that ffof is very consistent and is well balanced.
I have also found that it is superthrive that sucks ass. (shrug)

 

[PoopyTeaBags]

superthrive is unneeded and to me just a waste... Your paying for the redicouls claims on the bottle the inventor did get a life time achievement awarded for superthrive though.... IN ADVERTISING..!!! i kicked ST to the curb a while ago....

 

[lordbudly]

Superthrive is the culprit.

wow how can people say your overfeeding lalala already superthrive caused it your fault when he was already using that?

hes been overfeeding them for many reliable harvests, and then he added liquid karma and the liquid karma said you used to much superthrive or to much of the other nutrients

 

[OG savatage]

Sleepy's right on. Borderline if not fer sure overfeeding. LK is awesome stuff and it will not burn your plants if used correctly. My theory is the LK increased the efficiency of nutrient uptake, making your girl overfeed herself. I use ST around transplant time and that's it, to help stop transplant shock. I use LK from clone to last watering before cutting, at 15ml per gal. Bit more at transplant times. But then I make my own soil using an LC/BOG hybrid mix. Only use some Big Bud at flower time, all other nutes and micronutes and microherd are in there already. Feed the herd and the girl with the LK. Keep the LK, cut down on the feeds and see how that works for ya. Good luck!

 

[hoosierdaddy]

:Veg-30ml/G of PBP Veg and 5 ml/G of Cal/Mag, a few drops of Superthrive.
:Bloom-30 ml/G of PBP Bloom, Molasses in last 3 weeks
I feed every 2-3 days.

One drop per gal of ST is almost too much.
Feeding every 2-3 days is definitely too much.

 

[Dr Dog]

I have and will continue to use LK, I have never had any issues with it, other than it making my plants too frosty.

I also back up sleepys diagnosis

 

[Sleepy]

something i forgot to mention...

something i forgot to mention...

wow how can people say your overfeeding lalala already superthrive caused it your fault when he was already using that?

hes been overfeeding them for many reliable harvests, and then he added liquid karma and the liquid karma said you used to much superthrive or to much of the other nutrients

you have a point in that it worked in the past. we never addressed the growers' pH, though...if the pH is out of range, the plants may still thrive, but never be allowed to absorb nutrients...lets say the growers' pH came back into range and suddenly absorbed all nutes/additives at the higher dose more rapidly...you would starve them then overfeed them to death.

this is my hunch, as i battle with my ph all the time...


...so, what is your pH?


...You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Dr Dog again.

 

[otherwhitemeat]

Wow, all great advice guys thanks for continuing to provide feedback! As you can see from my earlier post, I had a lot of things going on and seemed to get lazy with my grow.

With FFOF my soil ph is always around 7 and can go to 6.8 right after a feeding and will occasionally go to 7.2. With LC, I am reliably in 6.6 to 6.8 range. I never do anything with the ph or adjust my mix. I just like to know.

For the record, I may have mistyped earlier on my feeding regimen. I water every 2-3 days, I feed at 30ml/G PBP during flower and a quite a bit weaker during Veg, I usually only feed once or twice during veg.

I also cleaned my flowering pots and trays again, there was a pretty heavy salt buildup on the pots right at the rims. Never really noticed this before, but figured it can't be helping either.

OG, I just started using LC mix #1 this go round. My next flower run will be four plants (2 FFOF and 2 LC) I can tell you already who's winning. Interesting, you just feed a bit of LK during flowering in some water and that takes you to finish. Can you tell me more about your feeding? I am new to LC and still figuring it out, good news is I have already been able to start dialing back my nutes in the LC containers. I am going to start using guano teas soon.


hoosierdaddy, you are probably pretty close. I was in the habit of flushing my plants once a month, a friend who also uses PBP advised doing this and it worked so if I was overfeeding, I was also correcting. Probably just getting lucky each batch? Idunno? I think leaving my plants in veg is also responsible. I was getting very lazy and overconfident, not taking good notes for a while, traveling, etc. Soma says that anyone can grow weed if they love their plants---I clearly wasn't.


Dr Dog, I was hoping for the same results!!!!