Can a single branch be polyploid?

[xerb]

Hello my fellow aficionados, got something special for you today !

This plant is just days, maybe a week, from being ripe enough to harvest.
This morning I noticed this branch, the lowest, coming out at soil level,
with some real crazy stuff happening.

It has between 4 and 10 white hairs out of every bract.

I do not see this anywhere else on the plant.

The whole room has had nothing but water for several weeks, and all this growth looks new.
As far as water, I have been keeping them thirsty, trying to stress them slightly.

This is the same plant I thought had 2 different phenos, as the main stem has a different smell
and growth pattern versus the rest of the plant. See my other post "Plant with 2 Phenos"

This is the freakiest Burmese I have seen in 20 years. But there was the one that threw double seeds...
Perhaps that was another sign of polyploidy? What do you think? XERB

 

[troutman]

If an organism is a polyploid it's all polyploid and not a part of it.

 

[Cvh]

Polyploidy is barely noticeable with the naked eye. It requires specialised testing.

What I regularly see on canna forums and blogs is people mixing up the terms triploid (or polyploidy) and trifoliate. They sound a bit the same but they are very different things.

Trifoliate or whorled phyllotaxy (ie. four-leaf clover) is what people usually mean instead of poly- or triploidy.

Google the terms trifoliate or whorled phyllotaxy or fasciation and also poly- or triploidy in Cannabis and you'll see the difference.

I sincerely doubt you have been doing colchicine experiments.

 

[troutman]

^^^ It's not noticeable by eye. Can you look at a fruit in the market and tell which one is a triploid?

Hint: Seedless fruit are triploids and you can't tell them apart from the regular diploids by eye.

 

[xerb]

Polyploidy is barely noticeable with the naked eye. It requires specialised testing.

What I regularly see on canna forums and blogs is people mixing up the terms triploid (or polyploidy) and trifoliate. They sound a bit the same but they are very different things.

Trifoliate or whorled phyllotaxy (ie. four-leaf clover) is what people usually mean instead of poly- or triploidy.

Google the terms trifoliate or whorled phyllotaxy or fasciation and also poly- or triploidy in Cannabis and you'll see the difference.

I sincerely doubt you have been doing colchicine experiments.

Hi Cvh,

I have tried many different searches for all the terms you used above, plus several others.
What did you find? And where?

Maybe these guys are wrong
https://www.philosopherseeds.com/blog/en/genetic-mutations-cannabis/#PolyploidyorGigantisminCannabis
But they are the only reference to multiple stigmas I found.
They attribute it to polyploidism.

I see "trifoliate", "variegation" and "fasciation" in several of my strains. I believe this is different.

The more I think about it, this mutation is probably where my "doubled" seeds came from.
A twinned Calyx so to speak?

These doubled seeds showed up in a seed run several years ago, and I found several dozen out of
many hundreds of seeds.
I grew them all out, but did not find anything special. I guess they could have been sterile females
without me realizing it.

No colchicine in my garden ! XERB

 

[xerb]

High Guys !

I have had the pleasure of growing polyploid seeds.
In the late1970s I bought an ounce of Colombian, the best I ever bought.
It was as potent as ANY Thai stick from the era, Colombian taste and high,
but the high lasted at least 8 hours or more ! (It's been a few years)

Many of those seeds did not germinate. Most that did were terribly deformed.
Of the surviving seedlings, maybe 1 in 6 seemed to grow relatively normally.
Of those survivors about 1/3 appeared to be polyploid.
They grew with a more typical structure, although many were trifoliate.
Those prize specimens grew like they were on steroids or the soil was pure gold.
THICK leaves, bigger overall, they grew 3 times as fast as normal seedlings.

Photo by BuddhaSeeds

My best plant was taller than this one in only 4 weeks - but it had no branching.

No problem seeing something was going on with the naked eye ! XERB

 

[Cvh]

xerb ,

Hi Xerb,

For example take a look at the following thread, in this thread Buddhaseeds shared some info about their Colchicine experiments. At the 4th page there are some pictures of polyploid plants (tetraploid in this case). As you can see there is barely any noticeable visible difference with normal (diploid) plants. Which is to be expected.
https://www.icmag.com/forum/marijuan...bout-polyploid

Compare this to the mutation called 'Whorled Phyllotaxy' aka 'trifoliate' aka 'fasciation' (ie. four-leaf clover).
https://www.icmag.com/forum/marijuan...-please?t=5975

I have seen your other thread about multiple pheno's on one plant. I don't know what's going on with your plant there. If I have to guess then I would say that the member GMT his reply makes the most sense. A rare localized mutation during mitosis. If so then this could be caused by numerous reasons. Most likely an outside factor (but can also be just randomly) that caused localized damage on the DNA level. Resulting into a change in the DNA code making all the cells coming further from this damaged cell (mitosis process) having a significant different appearance.

Cheers.

 

[xerb]

Thanks for forwarding the link. I read that years ago, having dealt with polyploid seeds once before.

On revisiting it, on page 2 the thread, Sam_Skunkman alludes to the fact that this "Natural Mutation"
can affect just certain parts of a plant. That plants can even have a different polyploidy in
different parts of the plant.

Isn't that what you get out of it?

It can also be artificially induced.

Have you guys looked at the pictures - you can easily discern many polyploid characteristics with the
naked eye. There is no mistaking a vigorous polyploid seedling from a diploid. Steroids, Baby!

Pretty sure now, my version of VISC Burmese carries this polyploid trait.
It also exhibits fasciation, variegation and trifoliate, secondary budding on the leaves and rarely
twinned seeds !

OK, I've had enough reading about improving Brassica for the evening.

Thanks again ! XERB

 

[zaprjaques]

Wow that looks one of a kind.
Apparently i had no idea what i was talking about in the other thread.
Assumptions....

 

[xerb]

Another quote from Hempernest:

"Sometimes the polyploidy is not stable, i dont think it reverts back maybe is only a mixoploid, with some polyploid parts and some diploid wich seems polyploid in the initial analisis and is not."

And finally after all these years, a picture ( posted by BuddhaSeeds) of what I saw in those polyploid plants.
I had a plant at 3 weeks old that had the largest leaves I had EVER seen on a cannabis plant.

As it got bigger, the leaves were more than twice as large as the ones on my monster Panama and Colombian
plants I usually grew (grown from bag seed as well).

About 1975 we pulled off an organic Panama Red that went over 5 pounds!
Loved that Bay Area desert climate!

That Panama Red produced the most beautiful RED honey oil I have ever seen (Everclear extraction).

Those huge, thick, waxy leaves, looked like some prehistoric jungle cannabis plant.
Look at the size of that pot, imagine if it was put in the ground.

Thank you for the stimulating discussion, I am now in the market for a microscope. This should be fun!
Anybody remember the old trick with methylene blue ? Best keep an eye on your beer! XERB

 

[xerb]

Update. Using a jewelers loupe, I have examined the rest of the plant, and have found that the
tiny buds that first caught my eye also have some very strange growth going on.

I found one bract that has a single stigma, it is 4 times as fat as normal and twice as long.
Another bract has 3 stigmas, and many more have multiples, up to about 8 or 10.

I just ordered a cheap USB microscope to post pictures. I hope to get it tomorrow or Monday.
Still shopping for a better microscope, boy these things can get expensive.

Does anybody know of a lab that can do the polyploid testing for me? Happy FRIDAY ! XERB

 

[GMT]

For that kind of testing, pop along to your local uni, ask for directions to the biology labs with a 50 in your pocket. Look for a student and pass a root tip sample and the 50. They'll do it in 30 mins.
i would have done it with mine, but I'm convinced mine aren't. Or wait for your microscope to arrive with a bottle of iodine.