Brexit´s done

[Hermanthegerman]

Who is the scapegoat now, if not Brussels?

 

[VerdantGreen]

Hi Herman
It will still be the EU that gets blamed, because they are an easy target...because there are still massive issues to be negotiated and resolved with them.. and the UK press loves to crank up the hate and war rhetoric to further the agenda of Rupert Murdock and other press barons (that support brexit but don't actually live or pay tax in the UK)


Also 'remoaners' like myself

will get blamed for refusing to be happy about our country getting torn in half politically - so that some very rich people can make more money and better exploit the UK's workforce and resources (without those pesky rights and protections that the EU laws upheld)


Also immigrants, Lefty teachers, environmental campaigners, The Northern Irish and Scottish (who overwhelmingly voted to remain but got dragged out anyway ) , BLM, etc etc. Expect more phony culture wars to keep everyone divided and the ruling class in power.

VG

 

[Hermanthegerman]

It´s a little bit sad that I can´t give a good answer. It´s very interesting what happens in the future with the economy. I think it was a mistake.

 

[MrFancyPlants]

I will never understand how enough UK citizens voted to swap their own personal freedom (and the freedom of their children) to live and work in 27 other countries - for the dubious concept of national sovereignty (sold to them by the brexiters)
National Sovereignty is a pretty much meaningless concept in the modern world… in fact the only nation that has anything like national sovereignty is North Korea… and its people have few rights with many of them starving.
In order to trade and collaborate fairly with other nations, you need rules..

to protect workers' rights so companies can’t undercut others at the expense of their employees' pay and conditions.

To protect the environment so companies can’t cut corners at the expense of the planet.

Nations pool elements of their sovereignty for mutual benefit -that’s what trade deals are!
Sovereignty means isolation in the modern world… what you need is influence – and the UK just threw most of their’s away !

You have a great point. But here's a counterpoint: with national sovereignty in the UK, your vote is one of 70 million. In the EU - assuming it wasn't effectively run by non-elected bureaucrats - your vote is one of 450 million. So yes, sure, there's still a ruling class, but with a smaller voting pool, I would argue you have more power as an individual to pursue many of your stated goals.

You're right in that supranational bodies are here to stay, and are truly needed to address global challenges like climate change, inequality, and space exploration. The question is this: whose terms does the world unite on? China and India's, who together would control 40% of any truly representative world government body. Thanks, but no thanks.

 

[f-e]

Yes Mr Fancy-Pants. People are quick to say we lost some freedom but the reality is we lost countless controllers and gained none. It's just another example of bad news selling. Everything is really. I can't fathom how much good news is being presented as bad news. All over the internet, lists of great things being presented as bad one's.

 

[VerdantGreen]

The EU is run by the elected heads of state of the 27 member countries.... and the elected members of the European parliament.. with each member country having a set number of MEPs in that parliament proportional to their population numbers.

The commision aren't directly elected but they only have limited power in reality

https://www.democraticaudit.com/2016/06/23/is-the-eu-really-run-by-unelected-bureaucrats/

There are no EU-wide votes of 450 million people from all the countries...and contrary to the propaganda, each member country IS sovereign (as has been seen by them making decisions during the covid crisis to close their own borders etc) The pooled sovereignty of the single market is mostly about fair, free and frictionless trade and it has increased our prosperity in the UK greatly because the EU is the biggest trade bloc in the world as well as being only 22 miles away from us (and that geographical fact will never change)

So your comparison of 1 in 70 million vs 1 in 450 million doesn't really hold...
remember France had a revolution and put their ruling class to the guillotine...but in the UK many people seem to find comfort in being told what to do by the posh people !


An individual in the UK has gained ZERO extra rights or freedoms from brexit, in fact they have lost rights such as being able to go and live and work in all the other countries of Europe, such as no more EU-wide health cover etc etc
these charts compare the rights we have under our new deal, compared to the rights we had as members of the EU:

 

[VerdantGreen]

Yes Mr Fancy-Pants. People are quick to say we lost some freedom but the reality is we lost countless controllers and gained none. It's just another example of bad news selling. Everything is really. I can't fathom how much good news is being presented as bad news. All over the internet, lists of great things being presented as bad one's.

from your previous post (number 2 in the thread), you still, after nearly 5 years, don't seem to understand very much about how any of it works (i tried to avoid picking it apart)


why don't you provide a list of the benefits we are getting (as individuals) from leaving the EU?


I'll start you off - sanitary products such as Tampons now cost 5% less in the UK. Thats the only one i can think of atm.


over to you !


VG

 

[f-e]

It’s “freeports” the eu want to clamp down on, and we have several in this country- Boris has stated on video at the beginning of this year he wants more of them.

A Freeport is basically a port/airport that operates outside tax laws for high value goods.
Tax is only paid on those goods if they are retailed in this country

Yes, now when we travel within Europe we get 'Duty Free' shopping. Like other EU countries that didn't full commit.

 

[f-e]

from your previous post (number 2 in the thread), you still, after nearly 5 years, don't seem to understand very much about how any of it works (i tried to avoid picking it apart)


why don't you provide a list of the benefits we are getting (as individuals) from leaving the EU?


I'll start you off - sanitary products such as Tampons now cost 5% less in the UK. Thats the only one i can think of atm.


over to you !


VG

My only interest is stopping remoaner threads gaining ground. They do absolutely nothing to aid our future. Nothing but harm can come from dwelling on the past and in many cases people wanting failure so they can say 'told you so'
Both camps contained lies. Both camps should also of packed up by now. So a request to set one up again is not at all patriotic and I won't go there. Like many I have no intention of furthering debate. I'm just looking at loose ends.

 

[Hermanthegerman]

I often think on 1979 und 1980. In this time I was 4 times in England/London/Clacton on Sea. It was wonderfull, I was 15-16, the world was mine and from my hometown was shipping a ferry every 3 days to Harwich. England was fresh in the EU and for me it was absolutly normal, that I can go to England from my hometown, with an ordinary Personalausweis. But it had something special, diffrent to France or Spain. Oh, wow, you can go to England!! just with a id card!

Sentimental journey

 

[VerdantGreen]

My only interest is stopping remoaner threads gaining ground. They do absolutely nothing to aid our future. Nothing but harm can come from dwelling on the past and in many cases people wanting failure so they can say 'told you so'
Both camps contained lies. Both camps should also of packed up by now. So a request to set one up again is not at all patriotic and I won't go there. Like many I have no intention of furthering debate. I'm just looking at loose ends.

Mate, many people in the UK love dwelling in the past! we ALWAYS look backwards and think things were better then.. this is why we have a problem with exceptionalism, we think back to the Empire and the world wars and kid ourselves that we are still a superpower... but we ain't anymore.... and going it alone against these huge trading blocs, china, USA, India - isn't going to do us any favours. Recently, the UK's global influence stemmed from us being the English speaking way to approach the EU.. and we have thrown that away.
take Biden for example - he thinks, after Trump, it is much more important for America to rebuild ties with the massive EU trading bloc than to do the little Britain any favours

Sure positivity can be a good thing.. but kidding ourselves is taking it too far for me. I'm not going to pretend that the UK's biggest geopolitical mistake since the Suez crisis is a wonderful thing.
VG

 

[VerdantGreen]

I often think on 1979 und 1980. In this time I was 4 times in England/London/Clacton on Sea. It was wonderfull, I was 15-16, the world was mine and from my hometown was shipping a ferry every 3 days to Harwich. England was fresh in the EU and for me it was absolutly normal, that I can go to England from my hometown, with an ordinary Personalausweis. But it had something special, diffrent to France or Spain. Oh, wow, you can go to Englang!! just with a passport!

Sentimental journey

We used to go on big Motorbike tours around Europe... Ride to holland and stock up on weed and hash, and then down to the Alps and South of France...
I also used to DJ in Europe quite a bit back in the day, France, Germany, Holland, Belgium. Fly over, party, and back next day with a couple of hundred quid in my pocket, great fun.

Now we have left the EU, all UK performing artists will need a visa to play in the EU, which will cost £244 pounds... more than i usually got paid.

They were great times and i have fond memories though .


VG

 

[HGCC]

The whole situation is fascinating, I like the usa not being the focus for once.

 

[Cuddles]

I often think on 1979 und 1980. In this time I was 4 times in England/London/Clacton on Sea. It was wonderfull, I was 15-16, the world was mine and from my hometown was shipping a ferry every 3 days to Harwich. England was fresh in the EU and for me it was absolutly normal, that I can go to England from my hometown, with an ordinary Personalausweis. But it had something special, diffrent to France or Spain. Oh, wow, you can go to Englang!! just with a passport!

Sentimental journey

now, you need to apply for a visa in advance And so do the british. It just disrupts everything.

 

[Hermanthegerman]

On one trip with the england-ferry I met a black english man and saw the first time that you can smoke hash with a coke-can.

In that time I felt very close to England, had also to do with punk and ska music.

Hello Verdant Green that must be a very nice trips with the motorboat around Europe.

 

[Montuno]

I don't know if what is being said here about the U.K./Spain agreement on Gibraltar is correct (?):

The macaque monkeys will no longer be the only ones that can pass to both sides freely, he...
It is said that due to the very intense economic, cultural, social (and even family) relations Spain/Gibraltar, the EU will allow Gibraltar to be the only British territory to enter the Schegen space of the EU.
The passage between the two sides will be totally free and all the border controls that were to be installed are being removed.
The Schengen border will be only at the port or airport entrance to Gibraltar : to go from Gibraltar to the U.K. or vice versa, if there will be border controls (including for the British). Spain, without prejudice to British sovereignty, will be responsible for the police control of this "Schengen border" of Gibraltar, as well as defending it militarily against third countries (either by collaborating with the U.K., leading this defence or even without the U.K...)
I don't know if these rumours are true...

...Anyway, I am very sorry about the departure of the U.K. from the E.U... but this had been coming for years (decades?).

Greetings to all.

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

 

[MrFancyPlants]

There are no EU-wide votes of 450 million people from all the countries...and contrary to the propaganda, each member country IS sovereign (as has been seen by them making decisions during the covid crisis to close their own borders etc) The pooled sovereignty of the single market is mostly about fair, free and frictionless trade and it has increased our prosperity in the UK greatly because the EU is the biggest trade bloc in the world as well as being only 22 miles away from us (and that geographical fact will never change)

So your comparison of 1 in 70 million vs 1 in 450 million doesn't really hold...

An individual in the UK has gained ZERO extra rights or freedoms from brexit, in fact they have lost rights such as being able to go and live and work in all the other countries of Europe, such as no more EU-wide health cover etc etc

Fair enough, it's certainly not that simple of a calculation. And I will readily admit to being a relative outsider to this topic, and therefore not necessarily well-informed as to perceptions on the ground, from people who have skin in Brexit one way or another. For that reason, perhaps, we are talking slightly past each other.

I can readily see your point that with EU membership, UK citizens were granted certain more-or-less tangible benefits, be it individual privileges like free travel within the EU, access to another judicial system (ECHR), and perceived economic benefits of the common market.

My point, however, had less to do with specific numbers and more with the inevitable reality that the smaller the voting pool, the more control its members have over their jurisdiction. It's not a good/bad thing, just a truism of sorts. A meta-level observation. But this, perhaps, highlights a cultural misunderstanding.

If one sees themselves as European first, they most certainly only stand to lose from Brexit, because they lose a say in European affairs.

On the other hand, if you see yourself as British first, you are effectively gaining representation, (in theory) directly proportional to the amount of power transferred back to your national government from Brussels, whatever that amount ends up being.

So this looks to me, at a high level, like a battle of identities, much like the urban/coastal/globalized vs rural/middle/traditionalist America. I know it's tempting to dismiss these animosities as driven primarily by economic elites, but they are real nonetheless. The transformation of Western industrial economies and the loss of "real" jobs to globalization did, in fact, happen, and has led to much trauma among the post-industrial working class.

What do you think?

 

[VerdantGreen]

I see myself as British first, then European. I'm very proud to be British (although embarrassed of our antics in the last 5 years). My patriotism comes from the British historically standing up for what is right... our sense of fair play and inclusivity. Patriotism for me is NOT about hating other nationalities or turning our back on our neighbours.

I certainly agree that globalism happened and it has helped create an extreme form of inequality, with the richest 1% holding too much of the land and wealth.... but who is to blame? I am certain that in the UK, the blame for all this inequality lies mostly with our own governments, which have mostly been Right wing/conservative.. (and the only Labour one in the last 40 years gained power because Rupert Murdock backed them, knowing they were much more centrist than Left wing.. and thus they didn't do enough to redress that inequality that had begun to really get out of control in the Thatcher/Reagan era.)

Recently, the Conservatives in the UK, under Boris Johnson, have moved more into right wing populism - where 'enemies' are created - to blame for our problems and unite people to a cause. In our case it has been the EU, immigrants, judiciary and sections of the media that aren't right wing like the BBC. I think Trump in the USA has done a similar thing.

When people are desperate and despairing... it is quite easy to point the finger and falsely persuade them that certain other people or organizations are the cause of their problems... this is what Hitler did in the period between the wars when Germany was on it's knees economically. - and what has happened In USA and UK, and certain other western countries, bears a lot of comparisons imo.

Its also no coincidence that level of education was one of the biggest indicators as to whether people voted for brexit or to remain... In the USA it is also the biggest indicator as to whether people back Republican or Democrat.


VG

 

[mr.brunch]

At least we British can still laugh at ourselves.
Probably just as well really

Well worth a read for a laugh.

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1304778986782961669.html

 

[Montuno]

I see myself as British first, then European. I'm very proud to be British (although embarrassed of our antics in the last 5 years). My patriotism comes from the British historically standing up for what is right... our sense of fair play and inclusivity. Patriotism for me is NOT about hating other nationalities or turning our back on our neighbours.

I certainly agree that globalism happened and it has helped create an extreme form of inequality, with the richest 1% holding too much of the land and wealth.... but who is to blame? I am certain that in the UK, the blame for all this inequality lies mostly with our own governments, which have mostly been Right wing/conservative.. (and the only Labour one in the last 40 years gained power because Rupert Murdock backed them, knowing they were much more centrist than Left wing.. and thus they didn't do enough to redress that inequality that had begun to really get out of control in the Thatcher/Reagan era.)

Recently, the Conservatives in the UK, under Boris Johnson, have moved more into right wing populism - where 'enemies' are created - to blame for our problems and unite people to a cause. In our case it has been the EU, immigrants, judiciary and sections of the media that aren't right wing like the BBC. I think Trump in the USA has done a similar thing.

When people are desperate and despairing... it is quite easy to point the finger and falsely persuade them that certain other people or organizations are the cause of their problems... this is what Hitler did in the period between the wars when Germany was on it's knees economically. - and what has happened In USA and UK, and certain other western countries, bears a lot of comparisons imo.

Its also no coincidence that level of education was one of the biggest indicators as to whether people voted for brexit or to remain... In the USA it is also the biggest indicator as to whether people back Republican or Democrat.


VG

If you look, it seems as if they want to lead us towards populist presidential pseudo-democracies in the almost totalitarian hands of the Putin, the Erdogan, the Bolsonaro or the Trump of the moment...