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whew ... Do ibls ever lose vigour?
Breeding discussion
- Thread starter XyZ
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Valuable references on the topic
Valuable references on the topic
These are links to Wikipedia... They are useful and safe to visit.
I suggest really studying all the info provided by Wikipedia on this topic.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F1_hybrid
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heterosis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inbred_backcross_lines
Stay safe, all,
cc
Valuable references on the topic
These are links to Wikipedia... They are useful and safe to visit.
I suggest really studying all the info provided by Wikipedia on this topic.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F1_hybrid
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heterosis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inbred_backcross_lines
Stay safe, all,
cc
just you. Idiot. Well Done Asshat.XyZ said:so you are calling yourself an idiot? well done head
I didn't continue to argue, only to prove.
At least I have legitimate sources to back up my position, all you have is the way you imagine things should be named.
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A good discussion for sure......
I have always wanted to ask breeders this question......maybe H3ad would be the best person to answer this question, and i thank all the breeders for taking the time to read this thread.....
How feasible would it be to set up a small-scale "micro-breeding" process? I have read about Paradise Seeds and Breeder Steve setting up vast fields and greenhouses for selection purposes, but how feasible would it be to attempt breeding on a small-scale? Many growers are confined to a small indoor space, this is just the reality of the situation given the draconian persecution of Cannabis growers. What would be the best way to pursue a small-scale indoor breeding project?
Is "pollen-chucking" the only option for indoor growers, or can a successful breeding project be carried out in a very small indoor space?
Again, god bless all the breeders who advance the genetics of the cannabis plant.....you are truly doing an amazing service to your fellow human beings who suffer from debilitating illnesses and use medicinal cannabis......
kind regards from guineapig
I have always wanted to ask breeders this question......maybe H3ad would be the best person to answer this question, and i thank all the breeders for taking the time to read this thread.....
How feasible would it be to set up a small-scale "micro-breeding" process? I have read about Paradise Seeds and Breeder Steve setting up vast fields and greenhouses for selection purposes, but how feasible would it be to attempt breeding on a small-scale? Many growers are confined to a small indoor space, this is just the reality of the situation given the draconian persecution of Cannabis growers. What would be the best way to pursue a small-scale indoor breeding project?
Is "pollen-chucking" the only option for indoor growers, or can a successful breeding project be carried out in a very small indoor space?
Again, god bless all the breeders who advance the genetics of the cannabis plant.....you are truly doing an amazing service to your fellow human beings who suffer from debilitating illnesses and use medicinal cannabis......
kind regards from guineapig 
Yes, GP, it can be done in a smaller indoor environment... It is more work and takes more time and dedication, but can be done... I'd suggest for the small scale breeding project, that a series of selection grows be done starting with several times the number of plants your room can flower and selecting with extreme prejudice. Keeping the best potential parents from each run, and replacing them when superior specimens are found... when you've done enough runs that you're satisfied with the quality of the parentage, do your breeding and start the process over with your new seeds...
Not as quick as growing out large single selection crops, Not as quick as pairing peer approved 'elite' plants... but definitely workable...
Not as quick as growing out large single selection crops, Not as quick as pairing peer approved 'elite' plants... but definitely workable...
I know that you cannot find me any examples of any botanist calling any progeny of an inbred line an F anything.XyZ said:nice1 head - just great
so you still think "an Ibl can't be F-anything" ? ROFL
ROTFLMFAO...
yup... but it takes many generations and a bit of bottlenecking as well, I'm sure... That's the main reason why almost all of the corn farmed is hybrid corn, the increased vigor...slips said:
hey - was this post over your head?
~ah i'm wrong again, p00r me
a parental backcross is a parental backcross... simple
don't you remember that a example is there in your dummy scheme?
*funny also that you ignored my part where i explain the inbreeding for the recessive trait's... is this really over your head?
don't you understand that it's possible to create a homozygous line already in the F3? ...but homozygous (true-breeding) only for some well-selected traits and not necessary all at one time. it's possible to make an inbred-line already at F3, which will breed true in the next generations for most of the desired triats if the parents were chosen correctly. no matter what you do (even if you ignore - the filial generation is still there... if you want it or not... heady
i don't think you have much clue about actual inbreeding imo...but who cares... i have some nice crosses and you as well, it's much simple to make great hybrids in a short time. i don't care what you do and if you start an "ibl project" i would not have a problem how you label the P1 (p1, p2 or P1a,P1b...etc)...as long as you know what you are doing when inbreeding starts. what counts are the results right? blueberry is a result of inbreeding-a-line from the initial hybridization of the different parental strains. you disagree, GfulHead? have you ever grown the original blueberry? have you inbred the line more? how can You know she is not well-stabilized for the most desired traits?
it may doesn't matter for you ...but it can be important for somebody else... get this in your head plz
a F1 hybrid that was 6 times inbred is an ibl at F7 (stable or not, it was obviously inbred ...and you still have this F in the ibl-system... what you said now; "6th generation from F1" are just longer words for the same meaning - F7
So your initial words; "an ibl can't be F-anything" are still Comical
Grat3fulh3ad said:
~ah i'm wrong again, p00r me
a parental backcross is a parental backcross... simple
don't you remember that a example is there in your dummy scheme?
~what are you talkin'about lol... F4 means obviously inbred 3 times (F1XF1, F2xF2, F3xF3)... and if the result is a homozygous line for the selected traits, than it's a true-breeding ibl... what else could it be, Greathead? my seeds from the blueberry now are the F5 generation and deep chunk is fn+2 ..and if i ask Sam, im sure he knows which "F" is his original skunk line. now please stop trying to convince me that my details are wrong. maybe they are in your eyes because you learned something from a corn doctor ...but that's not my problem... when i share my Cannabis seeds, i have to make clear sometimes what is what... and all understand F5 (ibl) and fn+2Grat3fulh3ad said:
~what's for you a real plant breeder and what is an unreal plant? do you have corn dreams?Grat3fulh3ad said:
*funny also that you ignored my part where i explain the inbreeding for the recessive trait's... is this really over your head?
don't you understand that it's possible to create a homozygous line already in the F3? ...but homozygous (true-breeding) only for some well-selected traits and not necessary all at one time. it's possible to make an inbred-line already at F3, which will breed true in the next generations for most of the desired triats if the parents were chosen correctly. no matter what you do (even if you ignore
- the filial generation is still there... if you want it or not... headyi don't think you have much clue about actual inbreeding imo...but who cares... i have some nice crosses and you as well, it's much simple to make great hybrids in a short time. i don't care what you do and if you start an "ibl project" i would not have a problem how you label the P1 (p1, p2 or P1a,P1b...etc)...as long as you know what you are doing when inbreeding starts. what counts are the results right? blueberry is a result of inbreeding-a-line from the initial hybridization of the different parental strains. you disagree, GfulHead? have you ever grown the original blueberry? have you inbred the line more? how can You know she is not well-stabilized for the most desired traits?
~stop pushing your self in sour~milk lol...Grat3fulh3ad said:
it may doesn't matter for you ...but it can be important for somebody else... get this in your head plz
a F1 hybrid that was 6 times inbred is an ibl at F7 (stable or not, it was obviously inbred
...and you still have this F in the ibl-system... what you said now; "6th generation from F1" are just longer words for the same meaning - F7So your initial words; "an ibl can't be F-anything" are still Comical
0wnageGrat3fulh3ad said:
What I mean is,
Time & time again this "5 gens & it breeds true" has been proven to be absolutely BS for complex traits that are all that matter to anybody who still can tell shit from shinola- at the same time we've gotten home in 2. Gen shmen, what does said plant breed true for, & why exactly does anything else matter?
Time & time again this "5 gens & it breeds true" has been proven to be absolutely BS for complex traits that are all that matter to anybody who still can tell shit from shinola- at the same time we've gotten home in 2. Gen shmen, what does said plant breed true for, & why exactly does anything else matter?
"If there is ever a backcross (parental or generational) in the breeding project, then you cannot call any of the further progeny F anything."
G-head & XYZ, its always boggled my mind, the different words we use for the same deal. I speak Allard I don't use BX, but BC. A second backcross is BC2. Inbreed these & we are at the B2F2 (lose the C) gen, & so on & so forth. This, as far as what is correct, is, as far as I know. You should have been there tonight, in the deep jungle with the dead & phish, the magic black box, & tico shroom-zoomers- it was good my bruddahs
G-head & XYZ, its always boggled my mind, the different words we use for the same deal. I speak Allard
I don't use BX, but BC. A second backcross is BC2. Inbreed these & we are at the B2F2 (lose the C) gen, & so on & so forth. This, as far as what is correct, is, as far as I know. You should have been there tonight, in the deep jungle with the dead & phish, the magic black box, & tico shroom-zoomers- it was good my bruddahs
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tempes~tos
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Grat3fulh3ad said:
lol... who is debating that?
when you said that an IBL cant be an "f-anything" is what i found to be wrong.
High' Tom ...always good too see you around!
you are absolutely correct about the complex traits, what we are talkin is mainly about the simple traits -so one character controlled by one pair of genes. i also like your cataloging for the inbred backcross...looks cool & easy to use
i hope you will come more times out of the jungle...your words are always respected on the forums...enjoy the sunday!
you are absolutely correct about the complex traits, what we are talkin is mainly about the simple traits -so one character controlled by one pair of genes. i also like your cataloging for the inbred backcross...looks cool & easy to use
i hope you will come more times out of the jungle...your words are always respected on the forums...enjoy the sunday!
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OK, Xyz... I've been running it over and over in my head, and there is one possible scenario where you could legitimately call IBLs F-something... SO, I'll correct my ever so slight oversight by adding one two words...
Almost every IBL cannot be F-anything.
Now here is the ONLY scenerio in which you could correctly call an inbred line f-anything...
First you have to start with an F1 hybrid. That means parents from two unrelated stable inbred lines. Neither parent can be a hybrid or backcross, three way crosses must be excluded, as well as crosses in which there is any familial relationship between the parents. Then, each generation of progeny has to be bred to only siblings. There can be no outcrossing or backcrossing.
Only in that case could you legitimately refer to successive homozygous inbred generations with any F-designation, but I still think you'd be hard pressed to find any botanist anywhere that would call them anything but a homozygous inbred line...
I also think you'd be hard pressed to find very many ibls which were made in that manner.
Almost every IBL cannot be F-anything.
Now here is the ONLY scenerio in which you could correctly call an inbred line f-anything...
First you have to start with an F1 hybrid. That means parents from two unrelated stable inbred lines. Neither parent can be a hybrid or backcross, three way crosses must be excluded, as well as crosses in which there is any familial relationship between the parents. Then, each generation of progeny has to be bred to only siblings. There can be no outcrossing or backcrossing.
Only in that case could you legitimately refer to successive homozygous inbred generations with any F-designation, but I still think you'd be hard pressed to find any botanist anywhere that would call them anything but a homozygous inbred line...
I also think you'd be hard pressed to find very many ibls which were made in that manner.
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PeavillePride said:Until theres personnel attacks,i just see it as two people who disagree on something.I find the passion uplifting and good to know there are people who are gonna dig this deep/one way or another/to learn all they can about this subject.Some will be wrong,but its how you learn.Keep the civil info comming guys,im liking this read imo,im learning much and can decide for myself the rest through reading both sides
Exactly....schools in session...although i must admit this stuff makes my brain hurt
Sure... that's a nice method of keeping up with it for personal information...TomHill said:"If there is ever a backcross (parental or generational) in the breeding project, then you cannot call any of the further progeny F anything."
G-head & XYZ, its always boggled my mind, the different words we use for the same deal. I speak Allard
About the fifth generation issue... I never implied that 5 is any magic number for ibl status, cubing isn't reliable either, and I've worked way to many crosses to believe Xyz's homozygous F3 myth... In fact, in the regulation I was quoting, 5 incrosses and/or backcrosses was given as a minimum... The important part of the regulation are the phrases 'relatively true breeding' and 'at least five'... and corn selection involves fewer traits than cannabis selection does...
XyZ... if a line is homozygous, then there is not going to be any difference at all in the average genetic profile in successive generations, excepting mutation or heavy bottlenecking of course... By the F3 generation of any true F1 hybrid there is NO WAY you can have homozygous true breeding line... not for more than one trait or pair of linked traits, and not for that one unless luck is on your side... Why don't you work out the math for homogenizing three traits...
Let's say that our initial hybrid was a cross of plants with the alleles AAbbCC and aaBBcc...
100% of the offspring would be of the genotype AaBbCc and it was an outstanding cross so you selected the best two parents and crossed them.
Then the following frequencies of alleles occur in their offspring:
AABBCC: 1
AABBCc: 2
AABBcc: 1
AABbCC: 2
AABbCc: 4
AABbcc: 2
AAbbCC: 1
AAbbCc: 2
AAbbcc: 1
AaBBCC: 2
AaBBCc: 4
AaBBcc: 2
AaBbCC: 4
AaBbCc: 8
AaBbcc: 4
AabbCC: 2
AabbCc: 4
Aabbcc: 2
aaBBCC: 1
aaBBCc: 2
aaBBcc: 1
aaBbCC: 2
aaBbCc: 4
aaBbcc: 2
aabbCC: 1
aabbCc: 2
aabbcc: 1
Now... you can select the eight most like the original cross and cross them, but you'd get the exact same distribution of alleles...
More than likely, one of the other combinations of alleles is going to produce a superior plant to the original cross, or either grandparent... and alot of the other combinations are low frequency of occurrence... 1.5% or so...
For the sake of argument, Let's say it is aabbcc which occurs about 1.5% of the time, that ends up being "elite" quality and worthy of continued work... then you're going to select the closest parents to your Ideal...
Out of 200 plants there end up being an estimated 3 plants of the desired genotype, and 6 plants of the genotype Aabbcc which are extremely similar...
Odds are not in favor of finding the three plants in the lot of two hundred, and having them come out in the right ratio of sex, to produce the aaBBcc x aaBBcc which would result in 100% aabbcc offspring...
Odds are more than one of the other genotypes will be close enough in appearance to the desired one to make finding the perfect males impossible without blind luck or a genetics lab...
So you'll probable end up crossing that perfect aabbcc female with a varying male... for this example we'll use Aabbcc...
The absolute best result you will come up with is 50% of the desired genotype... though from that 50% you can find parents of the desired genotype more easily, and by the F4 generation will be approaching a fair amount of similarity in the majority of the progeny for those three traits... Of course for all the other traits there could still be vast variations...
Also of note, the more common the desired phenotype occurs in the F2 generation, then the more potential there is for variation in the F3 generation....
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