Breeding different F1 varieties? will hybrid vigor continue?

[ericbrighton]

Hello there ladies and gents of the med community. I have a question I've been pondering on for quite a while, and was wondering if anyone could give me some feedback on the following question:

How would crossing two different f1 varieties turn out?

-you see I have an 80% sativa/ 20%indica Thai dominant female strain that is very uplifting, finishes in 56 days (doc bush did amazing work with this true thai cross called tha rain), and tastes like citrus and I have been dreaming of crossing it with some male pollen from a Jamaican Sativa (also about 80-85%sativa) cross that I have grown out and finishes in 68-70days. I have grown out the female plant of the jamaican and it is a bit racy, extremely longlasting and has a taste of soapy grape incense. its like smoking grape ivory soap, with hints of lavender/sandlewood. very yummy. Im just wondering what I could expect from this cross? I dont have any males of the Thai cross, so I must pollinate the thais with pollen from the jamaican grapes. Do you think the flowering time of the thai will move up from 56 days to maybe 60-65 days due to the longer flowering time of the jamaican. and what usually happens when you cross a quicker flowering strain with a male that takes longer to flower, (example, crossing a white widow female x jamaican sativa male)?. Im hoping to make the already strong and smooth sailing experience of the thai a little more devastating by hitting it up with the male pollen of the jamaican. and hope that the jamaican lends some of its aroma, and soapy grape incense taste to the lemon/orange of the thai. I dont mind a longer flower period than 56days, just wondering what to expect? and finally will crossing two different f1's result in the next generatin also having the super vigor of a hydbrid f1?

 

[DocLeaf]

How would crossing two different f1 varieties turn out?

It would make a poly-hybrid.
Lots of home breeders make them.
This is the first step for many professional breeders.

Much of the hybrid vigor is lost in poly-hybrid seed lines when compared to the parent f1s.

This doesn't mean ppl can't make some really nice strains for themselves and learn a bucket load about growing while breeding from f1 stock. :wink:


see this thread:

http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=26677&highlight=Breeding+beginers

and this thread:

http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=20124&highlight=Saxon+Axe

peace
dL

 

[DocLeaf]

To add:

Breeding x2 f1s together (from different hybrids) makes a new f1 (i.e. first generation of plants).

However this would be called a di-hybrid, rather than a true-hybrid.

Many breeders try to perpetuate the myth that growers can't breed with first generation hybrids (f1s),, which is of course total bullshit. It's just like saying you can't breed two varieties of dog... lol

Hope this helps.

 

[C21H30O2]

hybrid vigor is only going to be displayed when you mix to plants of somewhat differing genetics. so yes F1 can become P1 but you may not get the great hybrid you were looking for is you mix two similar plants ie two kush hybrids or two haze strains. that doesnt mean its not beneficial to breed two similar plants

 

[elRoachoGrande]

c21: i was trying to follow.. can you try me again?

 

[newbgrow]

To add:

Breeding x2 f1s together (from different hybrids) makes a new f1 (i.e. first generation of plants).

However this would be called a di-hybrid, rather than a true-hybrid.

Many breeders try to perpetuate the myth that growers can't breed with first generation hybrids (f1s),, which is of course total bullshit. It's just like saying you can't breed two varieties of dog... lol

Hope this helps.

This was kind of an old thread, but I wanted to understand this better. Are you saying that any 2 plants can become P1's even if they are not true-breeding, but the resulting hybrid would be a 'di-hybrid' instead of a 'true-hybrid'? I was kind of under the impression that two different true-breeding P1's must be used in creation of an F1. That's not to say that you can't breed using F1's and other plants, to create polyhybrids, for example, but that you couldn't truely call the resulting offspring "F1".

Please help out a curious noob.

 

[Brownpants]

P1 = Parental generation
F1 = first filial generation
F2 = second filial generation
F3 = third filial generation

S1 = first selfed generation
S2 = second selfed generation

These designations are used by breeders to keep track of their own breeding projects.

There are no set rules for what can be called parents other than they shouldn't really be related to each other, in fact the greater the difference between parents the more predictable the results. The ideal scenario will have parents that breed true (homozygous) for all traits. Ideal Parental strains produce F1s that will be more uniform in appearance (100%) and they all will share some hybrid vigor as well. F2s will then split off into different phenotypes with 1:2:1 ratios for each genotype.

If polyhybrids are used for parental stock, the resulting F1s will not be as uniform and there won't be as much hybrid vigor seen overall, there will be many exceptions to the rule. In short the F1s will look like F2s instead, it will be difficult to predict the results.

 

[newbgrow]

I understood the bit about the felial generations, F1 uniformity, hybrid vigor, etc. I guess my only confusion is as to what can generally be accepted as "P1's" - I thought there needed to be some kind of regulation for what can be considered a true P1 parent - but I guess you answered that part for me that any plant can be a P1. In that regards, I guess any plant could also be F1's as long as they are the results of an outcross.

That would make the designation "F1" quite useless in the seed business since people have come to depend on F1's to be relatively stable. Alas, I understand that P1, F1, F2, etc. are breeding terms, and doesn't necessarily apply to the seed business. Hmm...

Regardless, thanks for answering.

 

[DocLeaf]

Nice post brownpants k+

In that regards, I guess any plant could also be F1's as long as they are the results of an outcross.

This is correct. The first generation of plants are F1.