Breakers getting hot and tripping...

[Cam]

Hey, I just wired for my newest room. I've got a degree in Computer Engineering and this is like the 5th or 6th grow room I've wired.

I have a 240v 30 amp breaker in my main box...then upstairs I have another dist box with 6, 15 amp breakers for 6 outlets....each for a 1000 watt ballast. All wires sized appropriately.

Anyway, the breakers keep getting really hot then tripping! All the wires are staying almost cold but for some reason the breakers are getting hot as hell.

I checked for loose connections..thats definitely not the problem.

I also was thinking maybe one, or a few of the breakers might be bad so I replaced them all with 20amp breakers...STILL getting hot. In fact, the 20amp breakers seem to have the ability to get even hotter before they trip.

I have a good multimeter...Each ballast is pulling just under 9 amps, 118-120V stable, 59-60Hz stable...so its not the ballasts.

Not sure where all this heat is coming from. The breaker downstairs is just fine. The dist box I'm using is rated to 100 amps.


Any ideas guys?

My next plan is to use 2 20amp tandem breakers and two regular ones..that way I can space the breakers out a bit and still balance the load...I hope that will dissipate the heat better. Buying 12 breakers isn't exactly cheap tho..and those tandem ones are 16 each.

 

[real ting]

I'm no electrician so all I'll say is turn everything off until you find someone who is!

Good luck man, hope you figure it out safely and quickly.

 

[EclipseFour20]

Try replacing the breakers; mine must have been as old as the house and got super warm when under semi heavy load. I wirebrushed the buss and replaced all breakers--even the main (making sure that I kept the same amps)--and zero problems. Breakers are cold as ice and that was about 3 years ago.
This worked for me--hope it works for you!

 

[Iron_Lion]

I bet it is your balancing, breakers have to be installed evenly in a panel. Meaning 6 breakers cant all be on the same side, either that or you neutral and grounding is fucked up. I understand, but I really hate to see amateurs take up their own projects, electrical fires are no joke.

EDIT Also dude, your wattage is over 80% of the breaker capacity, 240 x 30 = 7200, you can use 80% of that which = 5760, you have over
6k running.

lol i love how peeps with a degree in something automatically think they are the dogs balls in everything.

 

[libby]

If your wiring is at the right spec, then i would assume dodgy breakers(as in cheap)?

 

[Weezard]

All copper?

All copper?

If your wiring is at the right spec, then i would assume dodgy breakers(as in cheap)?

Could be, but,
Not necessarily.

The breaker/buss connection might be a li'l oxidized.
Even a fraction of an ohm can generate heat at 9 amps continuous duty.

Like the man said.
Unplug and clean the buss and the contacts.
Spread the breakers out as best you can.
Then plug and un-plug da breakers 2 or 3 times when you reassemble.
Then, sort out the 240V panel.
Do it right.
Even a small fire would be a BIG problem for you, yah?

That should do it.
Unless you are using aluminum wire.

Aloha,
Weeze (IBEW)

 

[Marshall]

what size wire running from the 15A breakers to the outlets? Just wondering how you simply went from 15A to 20A breakers?

Are all 6k going at once? Cause if so, putting all 6 breakers down one side of the panel next to each other WOULD balance the load across both legs. 3 breakers on one leg, and 3 breakers on the other leg. Legs alternate every other space.


How old is the panel? I know its a new grow but has it been used in your previous grows?


What size wire from the main panel to the sub panel? have you checked the connection at the breaker in the main and lugs on the sub panel?

 

[Cam]

I love how quick you all are to jump all over me on this one. One at a time now...

EclipseFour20: Thanks for the suggestion. I already mentioned though that I replaced the breakers once.

real_ting: I actually already had one of my really good friends, who is an electrician come over and take a look at it. He said everything looks setup just fine, and that he has no idea whats causing the heat...and to try bigger and different breakers. (which, I did)

Iron_Lion: All the breakers are balanced. There are only 6 spaces...and I understand how to balance a breaker box...

As for the 80% rule, its more for wiring......and as a general guideline for general purpose use. Modern Day circuit breakers are safe to their full rating. Running a breaker to 90% isn't going to start a fire, running a load on an underrated wire will. Worst case you pop the breaker. 99.9% of the time it will just trip when it gets to its rated current.

I believe the NEC recommends something like 70% or something on a constant load anyway...Despite that suggestion I'd feel safe running 40amps full load through an 8ga wire for 5 feet anyway.

My wiring to my box is rated to 40amps. The 30amp breaker is on the main because I want it to trip if my ballasts draw more than 30 amps...it lets me know that something up there is wrong...I wouldn't want 6 1k watt ballasts tripping at 40 amps EVER..

For example, say the volt drops a bit for some unknown reason... then the ballasts compensate by pulling more current, more heat is generated...the digital ballasts become less efficient in the extra heat drawing even more current...So if I go with the next size up the NEC recommends, the best case is that my ballasts all die or break the fuse they have in them. Worst case is that they start a fire.

With a 30 amp breaker theres only about 600-1000 more watts before the main breaker trips. I do this in all my rooms and have never had a problem... Actually, one time the AC died in an attic grow of mine. The room started cooking in the lights. The ballasts drew a shit ton more power in the heat and the breaker on the main panel flipped. It probably saved the entire grow. When I got up there it was 110 degrees with no lights on.

I guess my point is that the NEC is there for general use...there may be cases where if you really understand what your doing, it my be better to design the circuit yourself. I know some utterly stupid people who are electricians....people with high school diplomas only. I wouldn't want them designing anything for me. I'm not saying electricians are stupid people. There experience and practical working knowledge is invaluable, and a lot of them did go to school for awhile...but that doesn't mean they understand electricity as well as someone who went to school to study circuits and electricity for 4-5 years. Electrical Engineering is 3/4ths my degree...also my original focus. We need something like the NEC to govern how houses are wired and whatnot, its not the end all rule to everything though. Do I think someone who has no real understanding of all the factors at play when designing a circuit should modify a single part of the NEC? No, definitely not. So..I do understand when people quote it. Its always annoying though when someone thinks its you that has no clue what they are doing when actually...that person is just parroting a rule they read.

As for your last comment. Suck on my donkey balls bitch.


Weezard: Yeah, thanks for the suggestion. I checked the bus when I switched breakers. All the breakers and the box are brand new though so its perfectly clean.

 

[Cam]

what size wire running from the 15A breakers to the outlets? Just wondering how you simply went from 15A to 20A breakers?

Are all 6k going at once? Cause if so, putting all 6 breakers down one side of the panel next to each other WOULD balance the load across both legs. 3 breakers on one leg, and 3 breakers on the other leg. Legs alternate every other space.


How old is the panel? I know its a new grow but has it been used in your previous grows?


What size wire from the main panel to the sub panel? have you checked the connection at the breaker in the main and lugs on the sub panel?

8gauge wire. All new stuff. There are six spots and six breakers...yup, its impossible not to be balanced. I used 6 600's on the 15amp breakers for 3 weeks and didn't have any problems.

Also, I checked the current when the breakers were getting hot. They were all exactly where they should be.

I'm wondering if having 6 breakers like that packed in tight next to each other on a heavy load is causing the heat to get trapped.

 

[growshopfrank]

I'm confused each ballast is drawing 9a@240v? are the ballasts wired 120v or 240v? if 120v why?

PS if the buss bars in the panel are heating up they turn a nice blue or straw color pull the breakers and take a look.

 

[Iron_Lion]

Dickwad, someone of your superior intelligence should be able to figure this out on their own. Why waste the time coming here and asking us simple folk if you already have all of the answers.





fuckin karma is a bitch

 

[Cam]

9a@120 frank. 120 is more portable for me...my house is filled with 120v plugs if I ever need to move something...i don't understand why anyone would use 240v ballasts?

 

[Cam]

Dickwad, someone of your superior intelligence should be able to figure this out on their own. Why waste the time coming here and asking us simple folk if you already have all of the answers.





fuckin karma is a bitch

Your the one who started the provocation man. I'm sure that attitude treats you well in real life.

I was just hoping someone would have had experience with this problem before. I wouldn't have made a thread without extensive google-ing and thought about this.

 

[Avenger]

pictures of the wiring?

 

[Marshall]

9a@120 frank. 120 is more portable for me...my house is filled with 120v plugs if I ever need to move something...i don't understand why anyone would use 240v ballasts?

more ballasts per circuit. Plus it makes things easier. 6 1000's requires 6 breakers and 6 circuits at 120V 20A breakers following the 80% rule . you could run 5 lights on a 30A DP breaker

 

[growshopfrank]

9a@120 frank. 120 is more portable for me...my house is filled with 120v plugs if I ever need to move something...i don't understand why anyone would use 240v ballasts anyway.[/QUOTE

one reason to run a 1000w ballast at 240v is electrical safety Ive never seen a melted plug on a ballast wired 240v but many melted 120v plugs on 1000w ballasts

 

[EclipseFour20]

If you replaced the breakers, wire brushed the contacts/bus, "re-stripped" the wires & cables, ran correct sized wires, verified that your neutral/load/grounds are not crossed, then it must be a faulty appliance.

Hide and go seek time--I had a telephone that went funky about 10 years ago and the ground shorted, causing the circuit breaker to trip everytime we turned on the outdoor light (same circuit). Discovered the solution when I plugged the phone into a GFI outlet.

BTW...another reason to run 240 over 120 is the higher voltage appliance will operate more efficiently. No savings in electricity--but increased efficiency, and usually longer life.

 

[Cam]

more ballasts per circuit. Plus it makes things easier. 6 1000's requires 6 breakers and 6 circuits at 120V 20A breakers following the 80% rule . you could run 5 lights on a 30A DP breaker

I just go from 240 to a panel..then split to 120. Yeah, more circuits I suppose. I like running each ballast on its own breaker though.

 

[Cam]

9a@120 frank. 120 is more portable for me...my house is filled with 120v plugs if I ever need to move something...i don't understand why anyone would use 240v ballasts anyway.[/QUOTE

one reason to run a 1000w ballast at 240v is electrical safety Ive never seen a melted plug on a ballast wired 240v but many melted 120v plugs on 1000w ballasts

Not a bad point! My digital ballasts seem to do pretty well for being the cheap digital greenhouse ones from HTG. The cords barely get warm.

I hadn't thought much about it really. I just like that if I ever need to move something temporarily to another room...like one light or something I can just plug it into the wall outlet.

 

[Cam]

I just took it apart and hooked up the tandem breakers + 2 regular ones. The heat was definitely coming from the connection between the breakers and the bus bars...I used a wool brush and acetone to clean the SHIT out of them...didn't look like it made a difference though. Will update tmr.

also, I've been regularly checking the draw of each of the appliances. None of them are doing anything out of the ordinary.