Biological controls #14 macrocheles robustulus control of fungus gnats

[Aphotic]

will they work with rock wool?

Absolutly

 

[Aphotic]

never seen these offered from my biological suppliers. where are you ordering them from?

i can also +1 hypoaspis miles (now Stratiolaelaps scimitus). they are cheap and they will quickly become native to your garden. i released them once last year and they are still present in abundance.

i'm always recommending the nematode steinernema feltiae. if you add a scoop to your pump sprayer (dechlorinated water of course) and apply a thorough foliar they will destroy any flyers they land on. also nymphs, larvae, and eggs.

then i use the rest of them in a root drench. they get at the eggs and larvae in the soil. also relatively cheap.

When using as a foliar spray as long as you keep the humidity up, and it helps if you mist everything down at regular intervals after applying they'll tackle spider mites, leaf miners, scale, etc. Of course there are better benificials for those issues, and keeping humidity levels that high for extended periods could give you a whole other set of problems. This is what I was told by my local supplier, natures control.

 

[Andyo]

growing conditions temperature humidity ect

growing conditions temperature humidity ect

It may well be certain grow room conditions suit gnats and other pests ,also the country and state.
Be a good idea to note your conditions when posting about infestation .

Only im noticing guys i now dont have them.A
Ideally reasons why people dont have them as it seams to have got to that stage.A

Predators are the long term answer

 

[Aphotic]

Interesting. I enjoyed reading that.

It would seem more and more neem meal/oil (or Coots new Azamax product) has a place but was overhyped as a cure all.

I have a population of scimitus (applied two years ago) that rises and ebbs with the FG's. Before work took off, I had assumed they were long gone for lack of a food source and the transition back to coir/conventional.

Good thing I would never topdress coir with neem.

I would have to agree with you, neem is not a cure all, my soil mix is based off of one of CCs old recipies, and has a similar amount of neem meal. Neem meal in large concentrations can inhibit seed germination, and I if I remember correctly, the amount that is in CCs mix is about as much as you could safely put in without a negative effect. Even at those levels, it didn't prevent fungus gnat infestations.

Ideally I'd like to produce or gather in the local wilderness everything I need for my soil/top dressing. Neem was the big one that I couldn't produce or gather, so in a way I'm glad it wasn't a magic bullet. My plants however were very happy in my soil, and my soil is very biologically active, and I don't know how much of that is directly related to neem, and even though the neem didn't stop fungus gnats, that's not to say it didn't repel other pests.

I read an exchange CC and you had, you disagreed with the preemptive approach of foliar spraying with neem. I'd have to agree with that, I believe a far better approach would be introducing beneficial insects preemptively. I'm planning on researching what besides their prey I can add to my garden to keep them going between pest outbreaks.

 

[Aphotic]

It may well be certain grow room conditions suit gnats and other pests ,also the country and state.
Be a good idea to note your conditions when posting about infestation .

Only im noticing guys i now dont have them.A
Ideally reasons why people dont have them as it seams to have got to that stage.A

Predators are the long term answer

I'm not sure if you were referring to me.

I keep my room temp pegged at 75f, my soil temps vary depending on canopy, but mid 60s to low 70s. My humidity levels between waterings stays in the low to mid 50s. Mushrooms have colonized all of my beds. Fresh mulch layers, and increased moisture levels in the top few inches of soil definantly promote fungus gnat population spikes. I have oak chips mixed into the to layer of my soil, which promotes fungal activity. I live on the eastern side of the costal mountain range, in Oregon, USA

 

[Team Microbe]

I would have to agree with you, neem is not a cure all, my soil mix is based off of one of CCs old recipies, and has a similar amount of neem meal. Neem meal in large concentrations can inhibit seed germination, and I if I remember correctly, the amount that is in CCs mix is about as much as you could safely put in without a negative effect. Even at those levels, it didn't prevent fungus gnat infestations.

Ideally I'd like to produce or gather in the local wilderness everything I need for my soil/top dressing. Neem was the big one that I couldn't produce or gather, so in a way I'm glad it wasn't a magic bullet. My plants however were very happy in my soil, and my soil is very biologically active, and I don't know how much of that is directly related to neem, and even though the neem didn't stop fungus gnats, that's not to say it didn't repel other pests.

I read an exchange CC and you had, you disagreed with the preemptive approach of foliar spraying with neem. I'd have to agree with that, I believe a far better approach would be introducing beneficial insects preemptively. I'm planning on researching what besides their prey I can add to my garden to keep them going between pest outbreaks.

Please oh please tell me it was in regards of a "clogged stomata"

 

[Aphotic]

Please oh please tell me it was in regards of a "clogged stomata"

No it wasn't, but it's funny you bring that up, I would imagine that it could clog stomata, especially with repeated applications. Though I remember reading somewhere that neem oil breaks down after a couple of days and won't build up over time. I've only ever used neem oil to combat spider mites and scale, I really want organic pesticides to work, I've just never experienced any of them working myself. With the exception of spinosad, we use it for fleas on our dogs, it's incredible how quickly it works and for how long. I bought some for my grow rooms as well, I'd like to research what else I'm going to take out before I use it though.

On another note, I took some pics of the mites that are combating my fungus gnats, it was really difficult to get good pics of them. The mites populations have reached epic proportions, which makes sense, that's considering the amount of fungus gnats present. I believe these little guys are Macrocheles Robustulus I messed with the pic a little so you could see it a little better.

 

[Coughie]

With the exception of spinosad, we use it for fleas on our dogs, it's incredible how quickly it works and for how long. I bought some for my grow rooms as well, I'd like to research what else I'm going to take out before I use it though.

Just about everything... predators and prey/pests.. everything... Even honey bees down wind or visiting shortly after spraying, are done for, if you're outside..


My successes with neem have come with making sure its emulsified (using a silcate) and with the addition of essential oils. The neem-water, when emulsified, should look like "1% milk" - a thin, cloudy white solution.. The same emulsified neem can be used with varying blends of EO's, which keep the prey off-balance by not letting them 'adjust' to any particular mixture..

The only thing my neem foliars didn't take out was the broad mites, which I waxed with the use of predator mites


HTH

 

[Aphotic]

Just about everything... predators and prey/pests.. everything... Even honey bees down wind or visiting shortly after spraying, are done for, if you're outside..


My successes with neem have come with making sure its emulsified (using a silcate) and with the addition of essential oils. The neem-water, when emulsified, should look like "1% milk" - a thin, cloudy white solution.. The same emulsified neem can be used with varying blends of EO's, which keep the prey off-balance by not letting them 'adjust' to any particular mixture..

The only thing my neem foliars didn't take out was the broad mites, which I waxed with the use of predator mites


HTH

The spinosad for the dogs comes in pill form, within 45 minutes the fleas abandon ship. If or when I use the spray it would be indoors.

I just read up on it, it wipes out everything, it sounds like in many insects it attacks a specific life stage, but with bees it messes up there entire world, adults, larva, eggs, sperm, makes queens barren and useless, pretty nasty stuff. It think we need to start putting big warning labels on things that kill bees. The residue from spinosad on the leaves of fruit trees, days after application is enough to put a hive in danger.

As far as the neem oil goes, I imagine that my plants natural defenses are stronger, and overall health is better, now that I'm letting the plant control its nutrient uptake, ph levels, etc. My soils alive, and my beds are like little ecosystems. I'll give neem oil another chance if I get spider mites again, along with predators. I tried both for months the last time I got hit, I couldn't even slow them down, I also tried tobacco tea, which seemed to have more of an impact, but my plants were huge. The two spotted mite is the worst pest I've ever had to deal with, I'm convinced they were created in a lab, in a joint project involving Satan and the CIA. After each application I had to wet vac the room, the process took forever, eventually I gave up, burned the plants, bleached the room, and let it sit for a month before I even opened the door again. Then repeated the cleaning process, and started over.

What essential oils do you recommend, and at what dosages?

Thank you for the heads up!

 

[Andyo]

I'm not sure if you were referring to me.

I keep my room temp pegged at 75f, my soil temps vary depending on canopy, but mid 60s to low 70s. My humidity levels between waterings stays in the low to mid 50s. Mushrooms have colonized all of my beds. Fresh mulch layers, and increased moisture levels in the top few inches of soil definantly promote fungus gnat population spikes. I have oak chips mixed into the to layer of my soil, which promotes fungal activity. I live on the eastern side of the costal mountain range, in Oregon, USA

Not referring specifically to you but your report on conditions is exactly whats needed. Thanks
Hardest thing will be to get those that dont have them specify conditions .A

 

[Mikell]

That argument was with Weird.

I have only argued with CC through his disciples.

Weird and I argued over the effect of neem on non target organisms and the contradiction (as I see it) between core organic philosophies and broad spectrum preventative sprays. It was unproductive.

Neem oil is comprised much of fatty acids. Regardless of ones faith, fatty acids act predictably in our application. Conduct your own research, but the conclusions are the same.

Insects that can be suffocated with oil will be. Microbes unadapted to exist on a film of oil (chock full of antimicrobial liminoids), a common deficit, will not thrive. Pathogen or beneficial.

If you read and follow the directions attached to all spinosad products, the harm is negligible. Spinosad degrades rapidly exposed to light and the main non target species effected, pollinators, are not active at night or in grow rooms.


I truley wish some of you would stop degrading IC with half truths, conjecture and copy/paste "facts" pulled from other sites. It lowers the standard that sets this place above most.

There is as much clutter here as anywhere, but the bones for something better are there if you don't wither them away with bullshit. There is a trend surging lately. Shooting from the hip. Half understood regurgitation.

Cut the limb to save the body. Or just watch the rot spread. Maybe it will stop on its own.

Like all the other times that happened.

 

[Coughie]

The spinosad for the dogs comes in pill form, within 45 minutes the fleas abandon ship. If or when I use the spray it would be indoors.

I just read up on it, it wipes out everything, it sounds like in many insects it attacks a specific life stage, but with bees it messes up there entire world, adults, larva, eggs, sperm, makes queens barren and useless, pretty nasty stuff. It think we need to start putting big warning labels on things that kill bees. The residue from spinosad on the leaves of fruit trees, days after application is enough to put a hive in danger.

As far as the neem oil goes, I imagine that my plants natural defenses are stronger, and overall health is better, now that I'm letting the plant control its nutrient uptake, ph levels, etc. My soils alive, and my beds are like little ecosystems. I'll give neem oil another chance if I get spider mites again, along with predators. I tried both for months the last time I got hit, I couldn't even slow them down, I also tried tobacco tea, which seemed to have more of an impact, but my plants were huge. The two spotted mite is the worst pest I've ever had to deal with, I'm convinced they were created in a lab, in a joint project involving Satan and the CIA. After each application I had to wet vac the room, the process took forever, eventually I gave up, burned the plants, bleached the room, and let it sit for a month before I even opened the door again. Then repeated the cleaning process, and started over.

What essential oils do you recommend, and at what dosages?

Thank you for the heads up!

Comfortis by chance? I use it for my dogs too, Spinosad.


I hear you, I flower in 150-gallon smart pots, shoved in 4'x4' tents... Miniature ecosystems, indeed!

Careful though, neem oil will wreck the predators just as well as it wrecks the pests.. but neem oil can hold you over on something serious like broad mites while you order predators and they show up..

If the two-spotted mite gave you hell, I pray you never cross a broad mite.. two-spotted spider mites are child's play compared to broad mites..

(Two-spotted are easy with neem + silica + rotational EO's)

Essential oils.... Peppermint, Lavender, Eucalyptus..... others work as well, anything in the mint family, cilantro, thyme, rosemary..

Start small, a few drops per gallon.. It really doesn't take much, and too much will burn the bajeebus out of your plants... Like, alfalfa tea, burn lol..

Some of the EO's literally melt the two-spotted eggs.. They just.. turn brown and wilt away...

Every plant/genetic is a little different... My Coughie cutting can take abuse (high amt drops /gallon; 6-7) while other strains I have melt if I take peppermint over 3-4 drops/gallon.

 

[Weird]

That argument was with Weird.

I have only argued with CC through his disciples.

Weird and I argued over the effect of neem on non target organisms and the contradiction (as I see it) between core organic philosophies and broad spectrum preventative sprays. It was unproductive.

Neem oil is comprised much of fatty acids. Regardless of ones faith, fatty acids act predictably in our application. Conduct your own research, but the conclusions are the same.

Insects that can be suffocated with oil will be. Microbes unadapted to exist on a film of oil (chock full of antimicrobial liminoids), a common deficit, will not thrive. Pathogen or beneficial.

If you read and follow the directions attached to all spinosad products, the harm is negligible. Spinosad degrades rapidly exposed to light and the main non target species effected, pollinators, are not active at night or in grow rooms.


I truley wish some of you would stop degrading IC with half truths, conjecture and copy/paste "facts" pulled from other sites. It lowers the standard that sets this place above most.

There is as much clutter here as anywhere, but the bones for something better are there if you don't wither them away with bullshit. There is a trend surging lately. Shooting from the hip. Half understood regurgitation.

Cut the limb to save the body. Or just watch the rot spread. Maybe it will stop on its own.

Like all the other times that happened.

Predator mites work magnificently and will stay established in no til soil.

The argument however, was not inconclusive. You simply have no clue about effective neem use, either as a seed or oil. You took the argument in tangents and ignored experience and science (reality).

The active pesticide in neem oil/meal is azadacdrine. Systemic as well. This means if you use the right amount of oil or meal your plants will get the same benefits as buying and applying azadacdrine PLUS the added benefits of either oil or the additional constituents of neem meal.

If neem meal/oil is not working for you, you are not using it effectively, that is on the user, not the product. AKA your doing it wrong. It was explained ad nauseum before you came aboard that too little azadiracdtin will not

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azadirachtin

Initially found to be active as a feeding inhibitor towards the desert locust (Schistocerca gregaria),[3] it is now known to affect over 200 species of insect, by acting mainly as an antifeedant and growth disruptor, and as such it possesses considerable toxicity toward insects (LD50(S. littoralis): 15 μg/g). Azadirachtin fulfills many of the criteria needed for a good insecticide. Azadirachtin is biodegradable (it degrades within 100 hours when exposed to light and water) and shows very low toxicity to mammals (the LD[SIZE=-1]50[/SIZE] in rats is > 3,540 mg/kg making it practically non-toxic).
This compound is found in the seeds (0.2 to 0.8 percent by weight) of the neem tree, Azadirachta indica (hence the prefix aza does not imply an aza compound, but refers to the scientific species name). Many more compounds, related to azadirachtin, are present in the seeds as well as in the leaves and the bark of the neem tree which also show strong biological activities among various pest insects [4][5] Effects of these preparations on beneficial arthropods are generally considered to be minimal. Some laboratory and field studies have found neem extracts to be compatible with biological control. Because pure neem oil contains other insecticidal and fungicidal compounds in addition to azadirachtin, it is generally mixed at a rate of 1 ounce per gallon (7.8 ml/l) of water when used as a pesticide.
Azadirachtin is the active ingredient in many pesticides including TreeAzin,[6] AzaMax,[7] and AzaGuard.[8]

Neem is an accepted and established part of organic farming methodology, and I find it amazing that millions of people use neem meal and oils effectively including people with threads showing they eliminated pests. If you use it wrong and get lack luster effects don't rationalizing it is the products fault is delusional.

http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?threadid=312455

http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=258456

http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?threadid=268311
Sometimes it seems to me you really work hard at undermining known good horticultural practices because you can't get them to work in your own hands.

Sadly your not absolutely wrong, the real trick to neem products is PROPER application for which there is little information.

NFN if you simply took a stance of it is too difficult for the average gardener to apply with consistent results, I wouldn't have reasonable grounds to critique.

The fact that it does work for the segment of the market and the fact that many people complain it does not work is very telling and it is in that grey area user contributions can really bring light to where the failures occur.

This can't happen if science and experience are denied in light of local underwhelming results. They all have some weight in the equation that is reality.

 

[delta9nxs]

still, in spite of all this, a pretty good thread!

 

[Andyo]

Chlorine to eliminate the fungus

Chlorine to eliminate the fungus

I grew in the uk for 30 yrs moved to tropical island now.
Lots of uk growers use NFT to grow so basicly an open root matt
Those that didnt have fungal molds where using uk tap water which relys on chlorine to kill bacteria ,it kills fungus too

fungas gnats rely n fungus without they wont survive .
Not seen any reports on root aphids in uk

I ran ebb/flow in hydroton in uk cuttings established in 3 inch rockwool using tap water treated with chlorine ,never saw a fungus gnat .

Within 6 months tropical growing same system and nutes i got root aphids .
So i added calcium chlorate to my rezevoirs a weighed amount of solid from the pucks they use in swimming pools
I started seeing dead root aphids in the black tank beetle form in bottom of rez ,and no more flyers
i think the fungus they fed on was eliminated.

i didnt get to go much further in observation as i had to shut down and move .
Eliminate the fungus !A

 

[Mikell]

Weird, you really are special.

I never claimed neem oil did not work. I did say I have used it effectively (TSSM infestation) in the past. This would be much simpler if you didn't cherry pick.

Those are your words. We have well established your habit of putting your words in others mouths.

Azadirachtin is spelled as you see it here.

That argument fell flat. You were supporting your position with research unrelated to either neem seed or whole neem oil. The majority of the articles referenced by you were on neem extracts.


What level of azadirachtin (A or B? Do you even recognize there are two forms?) in ppm provides protection against sucking insects? What is the concentration in NSM? How much needs to be applied to provide protection? How long does it last?

These should be easy questions for you, no?

Why is it that everyone who disagrees with you is not only wrong, but stupid, ignorant, a failure as a grower/human, etc.?

Rather childish.

Can you explain how I used it wrong? I followed CC's direction. I altered that later to greater effect (proper emulsifiers).

Mad Librettist style (mason jars of different ratios allowed to settle out) before you level your power of assumption there.

Are you supporting your position with forum posts and Wikipedia..?

Snype's forum posts? Do I really need to explain why there is no merit there?

Perhaps we should take this argument back to were it started?

 

[Aphotic]

Comfortis by chance? I use it for my dogs too, Spinosad.


I hear you, I flower in 150-gallon smart pots, shoved in 4'x4' tents... Miniature ecosystems, indeed!

Careful though, neem oil will wreck the predators just as well as it wrecks the pests.. but neem oil can hold you over on something serious like broad mites while you order predators and they show up..

If the two-spotted mite gave you hell, I pray you never cross a broad mite.. two-spotted spider mites are child's play compared to broad mites..

(Two-spotted are easy with neem + silica + rotational EO's)

Essential oils.... Peppermint, Lavender, Eucalyptus..... others work as well, anything in the mint family, cilantro, thyme, rosemary..

Start small, a few drops per gallon.. It really doesn't take much, and too much will burn the bajeebus out of your plants... Like, alfalfa tea, burn lol..

Some of the EO's literally melt the two-spotted eggs.. They just.. turn brown and wilt away...

Every plant/genetic is a little different... My Coughie cutting can take abuse (high amt drops /gallon; 6-7) while other strains I have melt if I take peppermint over 3-4 drops/gallon.

Yup, comfortis. Thank you for the tips, when I do get another outbreak,
I'll give it another shot, I like the idea of the addition of essential oils, I'm not sure why my applications were so ineffective, I followed the instructions. I also need to look into using neem in combination with benificial insects.

 

[TnTLabs]

i too can vouch for successfully treating spidermites, Thrips and FG with neem/EO mix
1-1.5ml of neem oil per Liter of water.. most important i have found the ph of the water used must be around 5.8 for the neem oil to emulsify well.
I mix 1-1.5ml of EO per Liter in a cup together with neem oil and plant soap, this i add to 5.8ph water solution.. then you get this "milky" solution, ready to be applied

 

[Mikell]

Peppermint oil I would vouch for, efficacy and burn wise. Varying terpene content and plant tolerance will keep you guessing but I swing between 0.1-0.25%.

Great for green peach aphids, TSSM and far less oil applied than other similar mixes.

 

[TnTLabs]

my main go to EO is Cinnamon, works great on spidermites & thrips, in my mix i do 2/3 Cinnamon, 1/6 Eucalyptus and a 1/6 Peppermint, when desperate i first prepare a hand full of the hottest chillies i can find and add that as well.. that always does the trick