BioDynamic Compost Tea inoculant and BD Compost

[jaykush]

Im not suggesting it needs to changed, just that much of it is not based upon science, that is my main gripe. Anyone can infuse arcane methods with anything, I still want science.

there are far too many things nature and people of the old days do that cant be explained by science. that doesnt mean its BS. science isnt the end all.

as far as i know science has yet to figure out why terra preta is so fertile after so long, and why it "grows". that doesnt mean its BS.

dont be afraid to think outside the science box. theres a whole world out there to learn from.

 

[mad librettist]

nicely put Jay.

check out one of the most successful companion plantings I know of: the three sisters.

For the amerindians who grew this way, i was a matter of mythology, faith, religion, however you want to put it. but it was not science.

 

[grapeman]

there are far too many things nature and people of the old days do that cant be explained by science. that doesnt mean its BS. science isnt the end all.

as far as i know science has yet to figure out why terra preta is so fertile after so long, and why it "grows". that doesnt mean its BS.

dont be afraid to think outside the science box. theres a whole world out there to learn from.

Come on now. I think secondtry is just saying (and I agree) that things don't need to be buried in a skull (I'd bet we have containers for that in today's modern world) or the time is measured from solstice to solstice (we have calendars for that now), and I agree. If this stuff works, there is science behind the chemical reactions to be understood without the voodoo or ritual that was important to the shamans of the tribes. We are beyond that today.

Why is this more sacred and important then the US constitution? I mean we can tear that apart, examine it and rewrite it to suit the purpose of whatever suit is living in the white house at the moment (sorry but I believe the constitution to be far more sacred then BD) but cannot strive to bring these traditions into the 21st century through science? LOL.

 

[mad librettist]

doh! politics is not the way to move along methinks.

grapeman, I've made similar statements before.

If you want science then consider the limbic system. Maybe let yourself use it. Instinct can lead us to put horns full of poo in the ground, and then we tell a story to remember and give it meaning.

it works is the point. trial and error. like Popper said.

 

[jaykush]

Come on now. I think secondtry is just saying (and I agree) that things don't need to be buried in a skull (I'd bet we have containers for that in today's modern world) or the time is measured from solstice to solstice (we have calendars for that now), and I agree. If this stuff works, there is science behind the chemical reactions to be understood without the voodoo or ritual that was important to the shamans of the tribes. We are beyond that today.

but we dont know the full picture of why the skull, or why burry it on the solstice. whats actually going on in those months it underground. the soil outside is alive and ever changing. it would be hard to recreate such a diverse system in a lab setting time and time again. that's not even taking into account the different environmental conditions from location to location or all the millions of things that go on in the soil we have no clue about.

i agree theres some science behind it to be found as with everything, and theres no need for the supposedly called "voodoo" im not defending that, but im not bashing it. im just saying that science isnt the end all, just because you dont understand something doesn't mean its wrong or not as good. biodynamics is one of those things, its hard to swallow, but like said the proof is in the pudding. of the 3 farms i have been to and truly believe to be full on biodynamic, there system puts modern agriculture to SHAME in all aspects.

 

[jaykush]

and also we dont even have it right, its not yarrow its cow manure.

prep 500 is

Preparation 500
The cornerstone of biodynamics is preparation 500. This is made by stuffing cow manure into cow horns, burying those horns over winter, then stirring a small amount of the fermented manure in rain water (Proctor recommends 25 grams of 500 in 13 litres of water for a one acre block) for an hour and spraying the resulting liquid in droplets on your vineyard soil. The details of the stirring are important: it has to be for an hour, using the reverse vortex method, where the water is stirred in one direction until a vortex forms in the bucket - and then, when the vortex reaches the bottom, the stirring direction is reversed, creating chaos in the liquid. Again, this works on many levels, depending on who you talk to: this is either a way of attracting cosmic influences into the liquid - or just a bloody good way of mixing stuff up.

 

[shallrelicme]

For some people (myself included) it is important to follow what we feel is the natural order of the planet. I do it for my soul if there is such a thing. I love the scientific method, but the science of nature is discovered in nature.

 

[mad librettist]

nice words shallrelicme.

wiki:

A horn is a pointed projection of the skin on the head of various animals, consisting of a covering of horn (keratin and other proteins) surrounding a core of living bone.

Keratin refers to a family of fibrous structural proteins. Keratin is an intermediate filament; when assembled in bundles, it is tough and insoluble forming hard, unmineralized structures found in reptiles, birds, amphibians, and mammals. They are rivalled as biological matter in toughness only by chitin.

So if chitin is broken down in composting, why not keratin (even if it is slight)?

more questions: what is the surface of horn like? does it degrade? Can it house particular organism? We are talking anaerobic fermentation, how does that come in to play? Is there a modern replacement? A replacement for those living not near horns?

Does science even give a rat's ass about BD or anything else not belonging to the formal organized club that sets the agenda?

I'm not ready to put all my eggs in any one basket. Particularly one with a track record like science. How many farms have been ruined by BD farming?

 

[secondtry]

Hey JK,

I was only writing about yarrow from memory of reading BD preps, not as it's exactly done...but my point is valid in that BD uses very wacky methods when they (seemingly to me) don't need to. Why not use a shoe or a pair of pants to bury the manure instead of a horn???

BD gets so technical in there methods i would think they should have some proof (ie. data). I never wrote there has to be a scientific explination, I simply wrote I prefer an explanation before I spend time, money and find dead animal parts (I have a hard enough time giving my dogs cattle hoofs, pig snouts, etc to eat...and you can forget about Bully Stix!!! Gross! Bull penis! haha, I had no diea what the Bully Stix was until I asked and that was the last time I bought those pensis)

I am not saying BD doesn't work, I never was bashing BD, I just find the use of arcane 'reasoning' and 'philosophy' to be less then ideal. I don't like religion, and I don't like BD for the same reasons: people's imaginations seem to be the driving factor.

What I don't like is BD proponents making all kinds of claims without proof to back it up. Yes, proof is in the pudding, but what else is in the pudding effecting the 'proof'?...that's why we need science.


Thanks JK, I like reading your opinions.

 

[mad librettist]

Hey sometimes someone gives you a bunch of great technique with no proof.

Other times you get a bunch of proof, papers, and acronyms, and don't have a technique that works.

It's like the old line "who you gonna believe - me, or your lying eyes?

 

[treefrog]

Good discussion!

In my life, the most heated discussions occur with my closest friends, so I hope that secondtry doesn't feel picked on or whatever, because that was not my intention.
I just happen to use biodynamics and am awed by it's power to transform land/soil.

I like the scientific method, but today it's more about furthering political agendas by using a 'club' (read peer review)
Anyways, screw the politics. There is a line from a Dave Matthew's song called 'Dodo' that goes.... 'Once upon a time, when the world was just a pancake, fears would arise that if you went too far you'd fall, but with the passage of time, it all became more of a ball.'
My point is that science doesn't determine what is, it tries to understand what is already there. There is definitely some magical stuff going on with Bio-dynamics

Interestingly enough, scientists have tried to use vessels other than the steer horn, like glass, plastic etc. They even used those other substances in the shape of a horn, but none of them worked. Basically what happens with prep 500 is after the six months in the ground, it becomes a concentration of microbes so dense that it's ridiculous! Enough to revitalize many acres of soil.
Then there is the whole 'vortex' issue. Steiner was one of, if not the first people to speak of vortex energy, though it was maybe in the book 'Oahspe' I can't remember.
Fun stuff.

Every organiphile needs a copy of 'Secrets of the Soil' in their library.

Nice to meet you guys!

 

[treefrog]

Also, 'The Secret Life of Plants' is good book.

 

[jaykush]

yea i know you were citing from memory thats fine, but that's also just one problem with BD that we all and most mess up with. unless you really know and have practiced it, its hard to get things done properly or explain them properly. i am even familiar with BD herbs and use them almost daily in my own ways. yet i still didnt know what prep 500 was exactly i had to go back to notes to find out we were all wrong. it makes it hard when we are not even talking about the actual preparation or the process that it consists of.

also a lot of the BD people i have met, simply don't care for data. great harvests of high quality food and the land acting as one living system is all the data they ever need. my statement still stands, we dont NEED science. it just helps us understand

 

[mad librettist]

Jay,

your brain is capable of processing a mountain of data in places where your intellect can't reach. you don't even have to try, just stop blocking it to make use of it.

Moreover, the word science is older than the organized club now going. It can be used to describe more than the scientific method. But now we are getting into my guerilla language manipulation.

 

[Microbeman]

but it was not science.

Now that is judgemental. We have Mad out of all the historians, anthropologists, scientists and other curious people who is able to definitivly tell us that the Terra Preta farmers did not use science.
BTW science is only a word for a structured method of examination. If BD farmers are able to announce categorically that vortexes change the physical properties of water and that microbes are populated in a horn filled with compost/manure beyond our wildest dreams, in today's world they need to step up to the plate and show us a photograph. I'm witholding judgement until I see or take the photograph.

 

[harold]

i think there have been studies comparing chem vs organic vs bio dynamic. Bio dynamics won hands down btw.
bio dynamics works, thats the strangest thing. I dont think science will ever be able to explain life, its far to arrogant and narrow minded to understand it.

Herbal macerations using the biodynamic plants
Take 1 part biodynamic herb and add to 9 parts good water (preferably rain or spring water) in a glass, ceramic, wood or metal bucket (ideally not plastic) and throw in a bit of lithothamnium algae powder (ideally) or quick lime and let it ferment without a cover on for 1-4 weeks depending on the time of the year, then strain and dilute 1:10 or 1:20 and spray or feed to plants as you see fit.

 

[Microbeman]

i think there have been studies comparing chem vs organic vs bio

dynamic. Bio dynamics won hands down btw.
bio dynamics works, thats the strangest thing. I dont think science will ever be able to explain life, its far to arrogant and narrow minded to understand it.

and nature farming puts bd to shame and so on....

 

[mad librettist]

and pseudo-organic is even better than that!

 

[Clackamas Coot]

and nature farming puts bd to shame and so on....

MM

What does that term mean, i.e. nature farming.

Just interested.

CC

 

[secondtry]

MM

What does that term mean, i.e. nature farming.

Just interested.

CC

hey bro how ya been?

Nature farming is great, it's a system of farming I tend to equate (at lest in part) to permacutlure:

"International Nature Farming Research Center (INFRC)"
http://www.infrc.or.jp/english/INFRC_Web_2_draft/Nature_Farming.html


Here is a great book review:

"Nature Farming and Microbial Applications"
http://jeq.scijournals.org/cgi/reprint/30/5/1857.pdf (full text download)