tebos
Member
And the efficiency is based on what?
Best Leds nowadays (2013)?
- Thread starter Mustafunk
- Start date
some of my ideas:
-to me, building a lamp is going with that's best out there. I would say that goes to XM-L2, or XM-L. cree does beat anyone's white, but things to keep in mind is looking at charts, each chip to chip is going to have different color spectrum. so really I don't even think comparing whites is fully right this early in the game of LED..
-cooling. you mentioned passive or active. just keep in mind the hotter the LED, the less lumens
-what to drive LED at. higher you go less efficient they become. to me it's a balancing between watts / chips. but then we factor in ( work, costs, lumens )
--few chips, smaller cost, less material, less "even" light spread, lower lumens
--more chips, higher cost, more material/work, more "even" light spread, higher lumens
feel free to take a look at some of my album pis to get an idea what I built for veg lights. this is on the basis of highest performance / no cost build.. I am going to be testing veg spectrum soon enough to see difference how different whites grow in veg..
whatever you do, have fun and build what you want.. we all have different ways, but all things lead to the same thing.. a plant we love
enjoy
-to me, building a lamp is going with that's best out there. I would say that goes to XM-L2, or XM-L. cree does beat anyone's white, but things to keep in mind is looking at charts, each chip to chip is going to have different color spectrum. so really I don't even think comparing whites is fully right this early in the game of LED..
-cooling. you mentioned passive or active. just keep in mind the hotter the LED, the less lumens
-what to drive LED at. higher you go less efficient they become. to me it's a balancing between watts / chips. but then we factor in ( work, costs, lumens )
--few chips, smaller cost, less material, less "even" light spread, lower lumens
--more chips, higher cost, more material/work, more "even" light spread, higher lumens
feel free to take a look at some of my album pis to get an idea what I built for veg lights. this is on the basis of highest performance / no cost build.. I am going to be testing veg spectrum soon enough to see difference how different whites grow in veg..
whatever you do, have fun and build what you want.. we all have different ways, but all things lead to the same thing.. a plant we love
enjoy
tebos
Member
Well, no, this isn't right. There are fluctuations between brightness, forward voltage BUT they're not that massive to say each LED has a different spectrum.
^ have to disagree, and if you want proof it's right here in the charts. what might you be basing your info off of?
believe those are XM-L2, and MK-R, XM-L is here
now lets bring in a different brand, and check there WW ( here ) and your telling me there the same... pop quiz if you paid attention, what LED has more 660nm red in it..
believe those are XM-L2, and MK-R, XM-L is here
now lets bring in a different brand, and check there WW ( here ) and your telling me there the same... pop quiz if you paid attention, what LED has more 660nm red in it..
Thx man... maybe I will use XM-L for some whites, warm or cool, depending on how many royal blues I will use. I'm trying to get the best prices now and find also good reds (625 and 660). It's annoying the fact that I can't get everything in the same shop!
I know I need to keep everything cooled down and working at 500mA max. to make things go smoothly, that's the main goal now. I've got a friend who studied electronics so hopefully he will give me a hand with that.
The wattage will be around 90-120w max, depending on led configuration. I think it will be a nice lamp to start with, and maybe in the future, make another one to put them together in 1 square meter indoor.
I'm now thinking if using lens/cones for spreading the light evenly, planning how to cool the system down and the distance between chips as well as the led disposition (if grid mode or in bunches with same number of leds/colors) to know if I need long bars or a big difussion pannel and maybe fans too. Wanted to use copper PCBS stars but some chips are sold already mounted on them.
Peace!
tebos
Member
The same Cree datasheet you are using. Sorry, I misunderstood your post, I thought you were talking about the LEDs from the same manufacturer.
However if you want efficiency, you want Cree XM-Ls, also you don't want to drive them way above 1A because the efficiency goes to shit (especially with warm white tints and therefore low efficiency bins).
tebos
Member
...and same brand.
What will you mount them on? The heat pipes seem reasonable (3 @$80) each said to dissipate ~ 200w
But the 'pop quiz' should be Which has the beefier 630 spectrum? FYI, that's the flowering sweet spot
i m just speculating because i built these ones;
probably do an aluminum profile thats beefy enough to tap if i start another project
sometimes it kinda sucks to be a tinkerer
Thx man... for sure I will use XM-L for some whites, warm or cool, depending on how many royal blues I will use. I'm trying to get the best prices now and find also good reds (625 and 660). It's annoying the fact that I can't get everything in the same shop!
I know I need to keep everything cooled down and working at 350-500mA max. to make things go smoothly, that's the main goal now. I've got a friend who studied electronics so hopefully he will give me a hand with that.
The wattage will be around 90-120w max, depending on led configuration. I think it will be a nice lamp to start with, and maybe in the future, make another one to put them together in 1 square meter indoor.
I'm now thinking if using lens/cones for spreading the light evenly, planning how to cool the system down and the distance between chips as well as the led disposition (if grid mode or in bunches with same number of leds/colors) to know if I need long bars or a big difussion pannel and maybe fans too. Wanted to use copper PCBS stars but some chips are sold already mounted on them.
Peace!
nice. I think everyone gets excited when someone builds a lamp here.
reds, I cannot help, but i think there was some good advice early on in here
nope, no one stop shop for anyone..that's also basic stuff. my box I built for drivers took far more then I can count on my hands to get them built.. and real fun missing a part and re-ordering....
we can all help if need be. but hopefully your friend will say easy as pie, but if not we got you covered.. but also keep in mind it's your layout, so say what your wanting before we throw out advice how we would do it..
the white should drive higher in my observations.. to little power and to little output.. but also I guess not sure what scale your wanting your blues and reds, and in that case maybe you do need the whites driven lower.. we as a whole for the most part are just wanting to throw white at it, blue and red was the "old info" and it's not wrong, you can grow a plant with only two colors, but were getting into higher lumen output chips, and frankly, people who have used LED for a while are finding the "retro" , "groovy" color to be a very disturbing thing. so throwing white is our goal is it provides more color spectrum / nicer color to work with, and everyone's happy.. of course there are those with heavy red/ blue, and those with a few added in, you'll find every sort here, but white has really got alot of attention when I believe KNNA started using them, and seeing them in some lamps, and overall all the above mentioned..
I think you'll be fine without copper "slugs" considering it seems you don't want max ultimate performance.. hell even I didn't do copper cores, but it was only on the basis of switching out to newer chips once they come out, and $300 in copper plates seemed like a waste to me..
I think your on track here. were finding as it should be obvious looking at grow panels, stuffing a huge amount of watts into a tiny space doesn't do justice for light spread / even lighting.. I would hope to believe anyone here would back me saying the longer your heatsink the better. as that serves two purposes, 1 being more metal for well.. being a heatsink. 2 being you can space the led out more getting good coverage all over your grow space..
fan's that's up to you. I find it not difficult to add, and it really gets the temps down vs. passive cooling. now we know you can passive cool a sink, but I never support it being I think the point of LED is efficiency. it's not efficient to use a passive sink, it works but it's not efficient. people can do as they like but I always want to tell people I for one am all for fans, also I say just get it over with, so when you re-use the sink for better chips, you have a 'complete" unit. I have not got around to testing lumens with fans and without, I moved and threw all my garden stuff into a box and it got taken through the mail, so no light meter, and now being a minimalist ( well high quality minimalist ) I don't see myself buying another meter, but I can tell you for a fact, higher heat, lower lumens...
sorry, just rambling. enjoy the planning process, it might be the best part of the build, aside from plugging it in, and it turns on.. haha
yeah; the above are passive ~we shall see how long they last
i should mention the nasa strips are luxeon rebels royal blue and 660 red
the 4 whites are neutral cree XMLs ~it seems like 2 are a little more 'neutral' and 2 are a little cooler but very little variance
they are pretty bright all of them/but the crees are like wow ~i also have 4 of the luxeon rebels as warm white
its worth noting that every single 1 of these is getting hit @ the max rating {except the 2 royal blues} and every single 1 is passive ~like i say; we'll see how long they last & i had trouble w/ the nasa strips ~the 660s really are little sissy chips
i should mention the nasa strips are luxeon rebels royal blue and 660 red
the 4 whites are neutral cree XMLs ~it seems like 2 are a little more 'neutral' and 2 are a little cooler but very little variance
they are pretty bright all of them/but the crees are like wow ~i also have 4 of the luxeon rebels as warm white
its worth noting that every single 1 of these is getting hit @ the max rating {except the 2 royal blues} and every single 1 is passive ~like i say; we'll see how long they last & i had trouble w/ the nasa strips ~the 660s really are little sissy chips
I'm still going round and round with the colors... the more I research, new ideas I have. Lately I'm thinking about including some PURPLE leds in the panel. They have interesting blue and read peaks so I think they could be used with success instead of so many blue, reds or even certain whites.
We can see the purple's peak here:
Compare it to red + blue:
Here we can see an interesting mix for a full spectrum panel:
The images are quite promising in this case, Im quite conviced not like with the IR and UV leds, which just appear to be a waste of time and money and marketing bullshit from some panel vendors to get more buyers and inconsistent results.
This last years, many growers developed amazing lamps and had great experiences and much to say about all this issue with the leds, what will be for sure the future of horticulture lighting. It's just the color ratios of the spectrum that need to be researched and adjusted. But if you design a good lamp, the radiometric reliability and efficiency just poos over any other lighting system though.
I think since Knna's white + red panels, things had changed a lot. I guess using red and white is an easy compromise to develope simple and quite reliable lamps, although when Knna took the blues out of the Evoled V1 lamps, many growers reported worse results with the plants. I had Evoved V3 myself, and besides they were a cool solution for a few plants, they stretched a lot, the flowering was a little bit delayed and the buds didn't fill a lot either. I think by just adding blue and deep red, the results could be much better.
As for the PCBs, i'm thinking in purchsing multiple chip PCBs:
This is great to keep the number of cables and soldering points low, although as Im using different brands/chips, it will be tricky as shit! I think Crees XP and Oslon SSL have the same base so there are PCBs that could be used for both of them, it could be a solution! The problem could be cooling down 3,5 or more chips together.
Then it will be time to think about the drivers. Once I have the spectrum fully decided, I will try to divide it to separate a low potency growing/rooting/mums setting from a full power flowering one, so I will be able to change between them with a switch or something and save electricity. I though about running at 350-500mA to keep everything safe, I don't want to push the chips and risk all the work and the lamp performance but once I start to plan all the strings it would be easy if I need to push more for certain colors or whatever, I gues...
Heatsink it's another tricky thing... I need to keep in mind also the pcbs I will use and how I will spread the leds over the alu base for optimal spectrum mix under the lights. I also want the best coverage of a surface (not independent hotspots) and If I use long alu bars, I will need to attach several of them with several led bunches on each to cover an area (just with the Evoleds).
I think either long bars or very thick heat sinks could work... anyway fans or not, that wouldn't be a problem. They are cheap and easy to install on the sides of the heatsinks.
PS: does anyone know where to buy OSLON SSL chips? i've found places as SteveLeds, Cutter, Fernell or even eBay to buy Crees or Luxeons but nothing for Osram yet!
We can see the purple's peak here:
Compare it to red + blue:
Here we can see an interesting mix for a full spectrum panel:
The images are quite promising in this case, Im quite conviced not like with the IR and UV leds, which just appear to be a waste of time and money and marketing bullshit from some panel vendors to get more buyers and inconsistent results.
This last years, many growers developed amazing lamps and had great experiences and much to say about all this issue with the leds, what will be for sure the future of horticulture lighting. It's just the color ratios of the spectrum that need to be researched and adjusted. But if you design a good lamp, the radiometric reliability and efficiency just poos over any other lighting system though.
I think since Knna's white + red panels, things had changed a lot. I guess using red and white is an easy compromise to develope simple and quite reliable lamps, although when Knna took the blues out of the Evoled V1 lamps, many growers reported worse results with the plants. I had Evoved V3 myself, and besides they were a cool solution for a few plants, they stretched a lot, the flowering was a little bit delayed and the buds didn't fill a lot either. I think by just adding blue and deep red, the results could be much better.
As for the PCBs, i'm thinking in purchsing multiple chip PCBs:
This is great to keep the number of cables and soldering points low, although as Im using different brands/chips, it will be tricky as shit! I think Crees XP and Oslon SSL have the same base so there are PCBs that could be used for both of them, it could be a solution! The problem could be cooling down 3,5 or more chips together.
Then it will be time to think about the drivers. Once I have the spectrum fully decided, I will try to divide it to separate a low potency growing/rooting/mums setting from a full power flowering one, so I will be able to change between them with a switch or something and save electricity. I though about running at 350-500mA to keep everything safe, I don't want to push the chips and risk all the work and the lamp performance but once I start to plan all the strings it would be easy if I need to push more for certain colors or whatever, I gues...
Heatsink it's another tricky thing... I need to keep in mind also the pcbs I will use and how I will spread the leds over the alu base for optimal spectrum mix under the lights. I also want the best coverage of a surface (not independent hotspots) and If I use long alu bars, I will need to attach several of them with several led bunches on each to cover an area (just with the Evoleds).
I think either long bars or very thick heat sinks could work... anyway fans or not, that wouldn't be a problem. They are cheap and easy to install on the sides of the heatsinks.
PS: does anyone know where to buy OSLON SSL chips? i've found places as SteveLeds, Cutter, Fernell or even eBay to buy Crees or Luxeons but nothing for Osram yet!
i pretty much excluded osram from my considerations because either they werent available or they didnt seem to offer a preferable option; it seemed difficult to get a clear read on what their qualities might be as well
i m confused why you would mix osram ssl and cree on one PCB since the power specs are so different and the cree are clearly superior
but the most glaring issue is the variance in power ratings for the differing diodes you consider here
of you want to run around 500mA; just run luxeons/you could do your colors and white all in the same circuit w/o way under-driving the white & it would even drive the red well under their max
you are right; that PCB you show would simplify your soldering but i would just run cree XMLs on that and it would seem you would be better served spreading them out more ~i suppose you could have them on a mover
i m confused why you would mix osram ssl and cree on one PCB since the power specs are so different and the cree are clearly superior
but the most glaring issue is the variance in power ratings for the differing diodes you consider here
of you want to run around 500mA; just run luxeons/you could do your colors and white all in the same circuit w/o way under-driving the white & it would even drive the red well under their max
you are right; that PCB you show would simplify your soldering but i would just run cree XMLs on that and it would seem you would be better served spreading them out more ~i suppose you could have them on a mover
also keep in mind, chip sizes.. not all chips are the same size.
so, talking, you seem to know great detail. I'm sure you know more then me on the "history of LED" .. very interesting on your note about dropping the blue and people didn't like it.. I guess I wonder what the V1 was like, since I think most of us only know the V3 model.. I know the starline model is out, and doesn't have blue again.. something to keep in mind for myself.. but I think what we've seen is blue is very easy, and not much needed to fill that spectrum ( as in pure blue led.. )
I for one would love more info on white led "history" if you know any or can share any.. I am new to DIY as I didn't have the knowledge to build till recently..
sometimes I wonder how crazy we are.. I know rives testing the CMH new bulbs, and to think vs. LED.. LED has many chips, or few with smaller efficiency. to get the same watt as a 300 CMH, you either do 30 un-efficent chips at around 10 watts, or 60 at around 5 watts. cost of chips itself is enormous, let alone building a new LED ( slugs you have to buy ).. while the HID user buys a bulb and plugs it in, and fires it up... sometimes I wonder what we are all doing sometimes..... don't let me get you down, just some rumbles
so, talking, you seem to know great detail. I'm sure you know more then me on the "history of LED" .. very interesting on your note about dropping the blue and people didn't like it.. I guess I wonder what the V1 was like, since I think most of us only know the V3 model.. I know the starline model is out, and doesn't have blue again.. something to keep in mind for myself.. but I think what we've seen is blue is very easy, and not much needed to fill that spectrum ( as in pure blue led.. )
I for one would love more info on white led "history" if you know any or can share any.. I am new to DIY as I didn't have the knowledge to build till recently..
sometimes I wonder how crazy we are.. I know rives testing the CMH new bulbs, and to think vs. LED.. LED has many chips, or few with smaller efficiency. to get the same watt as a 300 CMH, you either do 30 un-efficent chips at around 10 watts, or 60 at around 5 watts. cost of chips itself is enormous, let alone building a new LED ( slugs you have to buy ).. while the HID user buys a bulb and plugs it in, and fires it up... sometimes I wonder what we are all doing sometimes..... don't let me get you down, just some rumbles
idk habeeb; i mean ~obviously we are crazy for taking this plant indoors and running HIDs on it in the 1st place 
but there can be no doubt the LED has a nice niche in the micro grow world
and in the side by sides it seems you can do more w/ less in a hobby grow {such as 1 1000W HID or less}
i think it might be something of a stretch today to pull of a warehouse grow w/ LEDs but there is a great deal of logic to a grow tent type grow ~1 thing that jumps out to me is how your plant can grow right in to the light and it will get a little spot from the diodes it hits but it would fry the whole cola if it was HID
anyway; the tech is moving forward relentless and one day we may see warehouse grows as the norm w/ LED and people ridiculing the emerging tech like 'well you wont see the fat colas of LED w/ that'
but there can be no doubt the LED has a nice niche in the micro grow world
and in the side by sides it seems you can do more w/ less in a hobby grow {such as 1 1000W HID or less}
i think it might be something of a stretch today to pull of a warehouse grow w/ LEDs but there is a great deal of logic to a grow tent type grow ~1 thing that jumps out to me is how your plant can grow right in to the light and it will get a little spot from the diodes it hits but it would fry the whole cola if it was HID
anyway; the tech is moving forward relentless and one day we may see warehouse grows as the norm w/ LED and people ridiculing the emerging tech like 'well you wont see the fat colas of LED w/ that'
On radiometric output as stated in data sheet.
---
I also bought some Cree XM-L CW U3 and XP-E red P3 and they seem to do well (not like Luxeons are bad, only the deep red one consume about 35% more electricity).
Osram Oslon seems like the best choice for deep red IMO.
Cool! yeah i've read good comments on the Oslons and the people agreed on the fact they were quite reliable and much cheaper. I've read that besides the Crees fans or efficiency (power emitted/power wasted in heat), Oslons are still the best ones in radiometric efficiency and the best CRI at 95 (Color Rendering Index). Being the X-TE CRI 80 and the X-L2 CRI85-90. Which means that the color rendition from them is more inaccurate. So what's should we go for? More power or the best available power with the best available accuracy in terms of color rendition and the wavelenghts that the plants need to make the most of the light we provide to them? I'm just sharing some info I gathered, not trying to school anyone here at all.
Graphic presenting XT-E bins vs OSLON, comparing the Average 2600 bin graph (original from Cree, red line ) with the average Oslon 2700 bin graph (black line ) :
Blue and yellow are the areas where Oslon is superior, orange is the area were the XT-E has more power. The dotted line is the visible line, also the reason why they have less lumens, but just because it's far away from the wavelengths the human eye can see (although not plants). This is one of the reasons why I'm thinking in Oslon whites and Deep Reds against the Crees.
I'm trying to keep in mind that plants don't give a shit about lumens but just photons emitted and precise wavelengths. That's why Leds are better in that than any other light right now and others with more lumens (but not cheaper or easier obvioulsy). Let's see HPS for example, shitty efficiency as many energy is wasted as heat radiaton and shitty color rendition or wavelength accuracy for the plants (too much green/yellow and ) but still with amazing results, isnt it?
Anyway, I'm going with XP-E reds and blues for sure, Oslons Deep Reds and maybe white (If I find a damn place to buy them online). Purple I'm not sure but it will be a nice experiment though.
Let's see how I make up my mind! I'm trying to learn as much as I can to have a criteria and share my thoughts too. My only goal is just to find out the best configuration for my plants so I can grow saving energy and cash.
SupraSPL
Member
The graph above is very misleading. I posted in the thread it came from to try and point that out. The curves are not normalized to each other. The oslon line would be much lower on that graph if the actual output was measured, quantified and normalized. In other words, unless the high CRI spectrum is much more efficient for some reason, the XT-E is superior for growing due to its (much) higher radiometric output.
Put plainly, I suspect that high CRI LEDs are not as good as plain old warm whites.
I argued that high CRI leds use "more" phosphor to even out the dips in its spectrum, leading to more conversion losses. I don't think photosynthesis cares about those dips, it would rather have more photons. But I could be wrong who knows
Put plainly, I suspect that high CRI LEDs are not as good as plain old warm whites.
I argued that high CRI leds use "more" phosphor to even out the dips in its spectrum, leading to more conversion losses. I don't think photosynthesis cares about those dips, it would rather have more photons. But I could be wrong who knows
