av8or's PPK - First Grow

[FlowerFarmer]

DTW is definitely the way to go when running the water-cooled co2 Gens. Your tap water should be sufficient for running DTW with the wastegate valve.


Running them closed loop is highly inefficient. At that point you might as well just run a regular burner and compensate for the additional heat it produces w/ air conditioning.

 

[Rotel]

Bury a 55 gallon steel drum outside, cycle the water there, pulling cold from the bottom and dumping hot in the top.

 

[Rotel]

A co2 generator controlled with a sentinel shouldn't have to run that much so the buried drum will easily keep up with the geothermal effect.

 

[av8or]

Bury a 55 gallon steel drum outside, cycle the water there, pulling cold from the bottom and dumping hot in the top.

I really like this idea. Now I want to water cool something just to justify trying this out.

 

[Rotel]

I've heard of others doing this with great results even in high ambient temps. The pump should be in the bottom of the 55.

 

[av8or]

Shifting gears a minute...

The first pic is less cluttered, giving you an idea as to what kind of space I'm working with. The second is a couple days ago (same space, just more vegetation). As you all can see, my plants are super crowded. I need to figure out which shape the plant should take to utilize my space wisely and ultimately provide the best frame on which to stack copious amounts of bud.

I veg in an 8x8' tent, using the 5x5' corner for these four large ppk sites. I put the plants in around a foot tall (Oregon law says I can have a bunch of "immature" plants under a foot tall and wide without it counting against my numbers). Day one veg the start at 12" and are given 32 days before flowering. I want to cube out as much space as possible with thick stems and lots of nodes.

I have been learning how to supercrop lately. This is the result. It's cool and all, but I've overdone it and now I have a wide canopy that is shading the other plants. The tall one drops tomorrow so I'm not worried about her.

I would like some feedback on how you all train your plants and what you're trying to accomplish in doing so. Pics would be helpful. I'm familiar with the training techniques but I don't seem to have a grasp on what I'm training the plant to be, if that makes sense.

This question is more about efficiency and maximization rather than basic plant training problems. Thanks, all!

 

[twist1uc]

.

 

[Miraculous Meds]

So ur going to do 4 large ppk plants in a 5x5 correct? Or is that just ur veg space? How much height do u have? What size and style of lighting are u going to use? Ur flower room dimensions and lighting really dictate how u want to shape them.

 

[av8or]

So ur going to do 4 large ppk plants in a 5x5 correct? Or is that just ur veg space? How much height do u have? What size and style of lighting are u going to use? Ur flower room dimensions and lighting really dictate how u want to shape them.

Veg Room:
10x10 but I'm stuck in a 5x5 corner of it.
2 x 425 watt t5 banks
4 ppk sites
about 48" clearance between media and lights

Flower Room:
10x17
8 ppk sites
7 x 600 watt vertical lights in x pattern
9' ceiling height


I rotate plants every 8 days. They veg for 32 days (4 sites x 8 days per site) then get moved into the flower room. This is proving difficult because they're too bushy and unruly from my poor training practices. They flower for 64 days (so I pick 8-9 week strains).

 

[delta9nxs]

another example of ppk plants getting too big too fast! and your plants get better looking every day!

looking at your rooms dimensions they are both a little tight for the largest plants.

when i was seeing how big i could get them i was allowing 36 sq ft per plant. your flower room is 21.25 sq ft each with 8 plants. so if you were doing them all simultaneously you would need a maximum diameter of about 4.5 ft each.

but you are running them back to back so you have a little fudging room to play with. because they are not all the same size and you have some mobility at your plant sites you can make them slightly larger, say 5-5.5 ft diameter finished plant.

depending on strain you need to flip them at about 2.5 ft.

i think they are getting bigger than this now in the 32 day veg period, right?

so you might consider cutting a week off the veg cycle especially since you are in a 5x5 footprint.

this would drop the count to 3 instead of 4 in that space.

all temporary until you rebuild or change rooms.

back to all the phytochrome stuff plants detect the presence of other plants even before they come in contact with them. they do this by reading the reflected green light from adjacent plants.

this is enough to trigger the shade avoidance response and cause the plants to grow more upward than outward.

growing vertically the plants should not touch each other until at least the end of stretch and preferably be several feet apart with strong side lighting throughout veg and stretch.

but we have to work with the spaces we have and compromises are inevitable so you just make the best choices under the conditions.

in 2 threads, the "wicked pulse" thread and the "demonic deluge" thread i intentionally tried to get the plants to grow through and past each other.

i tied them to screens and overlapped and interwove branch ends. it reduced yield per plant significantly when compared to growing them in free space not competing with each other.

scrogs work well for big plants (long veg) because the plant is not reacting to itself in the same fashion. but it's a shit pile of work and will reduce the total number of plants that one person can take care of. labor is expensive even if it is your own.

sogs work well (short veg) because you are not growing large plants and little shading occurs but huge plant counts are the norm.

in oregon the "6 plants over one foot" rule puts some serious constraints on us. i think we need to flip them at 1 ft and get what we can from them and then cycle the room more often to achieve a similar annual yield.

it will also get you a higher quality plant indoors as you will be able to light them more efficiently. those with the rep for quality will always be able to compete.

 

[Miraculous Meds]

Ok so ur doing the typical x pattern with each plant getting at least 3 sides of light. I haven't done this style yet but ive seen a few here on ic.

U might entertain the idea of using vert light for veg. I don't do it currently but im trying to shape my plant on a vert screen, so I don't need sturdy bushiness like u do. Vegging vert will give u that extra strength on the overall plant that the overhead t5's cant do. D9 has a good comment about shaving some veg time off. U can also just top them a time or 2 to keep them shorter and more bushy in ur same veg time if that makes it easier to manage. Id suggest taking a look at heaths latest tree grow thread for some ideas. I would just filter thru an read heaths posts as he answers all the questions. Then maybe take a glance at flower farmers ppk thread where hes doing something similar to urs. Hed be a good one to ask along with hl45 has been real successful with this style too. Id be asking those guys for training ideas.

 

[av8or]

another example of ppk plants getting too big too fast! and your plants get better looking every day!

looking at your rooms dimensions they are both a little tight for the largest plants.

when i was seeing how big i could get them i was allowing 36 sq ft per plant. your flower room is 21.25 sq ft each with 8 plants. so if you were doing them all simultaneously you would need a maximum diameter of about 4.5 ft each.

but you are running them back to back so you have a little fudging room to play with. because they are not all the same size and you have some mobility at your plant sites you can make them slightly larger, say 5-5.5 ft diameter finished plant.

depending on strain you need to flip them at about 2.5 ft.

i think they are getting bigger than this now in the 32 day veg period, right?

so you might consider cutting a week off the veg cycle especially since you are in a 5x5 footprint.

this would drop the count to 3 instead of 4 in that space.

all temporary until you rebuild or change rooms.

back to all the phytochrome stuff plants detect the presence of other plants even before they come in contact with them. they do this by reading the reflected green light from adjacent plants.

this is enough to trigger the shade avoidance response and cause the plants to grow more upward than outward.

growing vertically the plants should not touch each other until at least the end of stretch and preferably be several feet apart with strong side lighting throughout veg and stretch.

but we have to work with the spaces we have and compromises are inevitable so you just make the best choices under the conditions.

in 2 threads, the "wicked pulse" thread and the "demonic deluge" thread i intentionally tried to get the plants to grow through and past each other.

i tied them to screens and overlapped and interwove branch ends. it reduced yield per plant significantly when compared to growing them in free space not competing with each other.

scrogs work well for big plants (long veg) because the plant is not reacting to itself in the same fashion. but it's a shit pile of work and will reduce the total number of plants that one person can take care of. labor is expensive even if it is your own.

sogs work well (short veg) because you are not growing large plants and little shading occurs but huge plant counts are the norm.

in oregon the "6 plants over one foot" rule puts some serious constraints on us. i think we need to flip them at 1 ft and get what we can from them and then cycle the room more often to achieve a similar annual yield.

it will also get you a higher quality plant indoors as you will be able to light them more efficiently. those with the rep for quality will always be able to compete.

That all makes sense. I am trying to figure out the most efficient setup be it flipping at 12" like you suggested or maybe vegging an additional week or two for a greater yield. Let's say you "pre-veg" a cutting up to the 12" state law immature plant shit, skip veg and flip right then. You could run all six of your legal mature plants in flower at all times giving you 5 crops a year. Given a good strain, what should someone expect to yield in a dialed system? Say, surrounded by 600 watt verticals and the like.

In that sort of setup, I would be constantly flowering 6 small plants as opposed to what I'm doing now, which is flowering 4 large plants (while the other two are vegging for a month). So will 6 small plants yield what 4 large plants will in the same amount of time in the same amount of space (per plant)?

For whatever reason, I like the idea of the plants never touching. I like being able to individually tend to each plant and very specifically notice changes in the plant and become a better grower. Personal preference there.

I'm going to veg smaller plants and see how that goes. I am loving the crazy stretch of these J1s though. I put the first one in 24 days ago at 32". She has doubled in height. I put another J1 in tonight at 42". I did the same thing last week. So...I might have a couple of 6-7' tall trees here in three weeks. In a selfish way, I kinda like seeing how damn big I can get these girls even though they're pretty cramped for space. Pride, maybe.

Fortunately, the plants behind these monster J1s are all a bit shorter and none of them stretch nearly as much. I have some other sativa looking clones my buddy said were lemon something or other, so I don't know how much those will stretch. A lot by the looks of it. I'm going to top one early and let them grow up two two feet, super crop to level every thing out, then flip after they're all popping back up nicely. That should give me a proper size mini tree to toss into flower in the space I have available right now.

 

[av8or]

Ok so ur doing the typical x pattern with each plant getting at least 3 sides of light. I haven't done this style yet but ive seen a few here on ic.

U might entertain the idea of using vert light for veg. I don't do it currently but im trying to shape my plant on a vert screen, so I don't need sturdy bushiness like u do. Vegging vert will give u that extra strength on the overall plant that the overhead t5's cant do. D9 has a good comment about shaving some veg time off. U can also just top them a time or 2 to keep them shorter and more bushy in ur same veg time if that makes it easier to manage. Id suggest taking a look at heaths latest tree grow thread for some ideas. I would just filter thru an read heaths posts as he answers all the questions. Then maybe take a glance at flower farmers ppk thread where hes doing something similar to urs. Hed be a good one to ask along with hl45 has been real successful with this style too. Id be asking those guys for training ideas.

I did veg vertical the first two months. The last two months I expanded and stole that ballast and bulb for the flower room. I wanted to try the t5 veg to see how well it did and so far as I can tell, it's working just fine. My J1 plants have only had flouro veg lighting and they're monsters.

I will probably take D9's suggestion of dropping a week in veg if I keep outgrowing my space. I'm going to put my clones into veg a bit sooner than usual to e sure they don't get too big on the far end.

Once I figure out the most efficient time in veg versus annual yield I will design my space accordingly. I think I'm leaning towards putting a little more space between the plants and continue vegging all 32 days up to around 36", topped to 8 colas. If I can maintain a flat canopy into stretch, it would help fill the column of space available between the lights

The laterals in stretch seem to be the biggest nuisance trying to keep them tied up and out of the lights. Maybe that's the con of growing trees...it could be worse.

 

[av8or]

transplant day

transplant day

Every 8 days I rotate my plants in their perpetual schedule. Today I put a J1 into flower. She is 42" tall. If her stretch is anything like her twin's, she'll end up between 6-7' tall. I can't wait.

The flower room is starting to fill up. In three weeks I will finally have filled up all 8 ppk sites in the flower room and the following week I will begin harvesting every 8 days. I'm cubing out my space well, so we'll see what kind of consistent yields I can pull from this perpetual grow experimental first grow. In a month, I'll have to stop calling it my first grow.

The spot the J1 occupied left a large shaded area that incumbered a lot of growth in the surrounding plants. The Jillybean in the corner doesn't seem to mind, though. She's like an octopus. Maybe I shouldn't have supercropped her. Ha!

Here's a decent shot of the veg space I'm working with. My back is against the flower room so veg pics are tight.

The last pic is of some of the clones I've been taking and rooting in the queue behind the vegging plants.

I need to get better at cloning. The leaves are super deficient when I transtlant them into media.

All in all, the garden is happy.

 

[Snook]

Every 8 days I rotate my plants in their perpetual schedule. Today I put a J1 into flower. She is 42" tall. If her stretch is anything like her twin's, she'll end up between 6-7' tall. I can't wait.

The flower room is starting to fill up. In three weeks I will finally have filled up all 8 ppk sites in the flower room and the following week I will begin harvesting every 8 days. I'm cubing out my space well, so we'll see what kind of consistent yields I can pull from this perpetual grow experimental first grow. In a month, I'll have to stop calling it my first grow.

The spot the J1 occupied left a large shaded area that incumbered a lot of growth in the surrounding plants. The Jillybean in the corner doesn't seem to mind, though. She's like an octopus. Maybe I shouldn't have supercropped her. Ha!

Here's a decent shot of the veg space I'm working with. My back is against the flower room so veg pics are tight.

The last pic is of some of the clones I've been taking and rooting in the queue behind the vegging plants.

I need to get better at cloning. The leaves are super deficient when I transtlant them into media.

All in all, the garden is happy.

you've come a long way in a short time av8or..

 

[av8or]

you've come a long way in a short time av8or..

Thanks, Snook. I just copy you all and hope for the best.

Eventually, I'll be able to start giving advice of my own. I'm ok with listening to it for a long while still.

 

[Miraculous Meds]

I think that u can out yield 6 1' plants by doing ur strategy of 4 in flower and 2 in veg. U can be reloading huge veg'd bushes that can yield several pounds if u chose to give them the wattage and space, which u have plenty of both.

If flowering from 1' of veg id top that 1' plant at least 5 times and have a stalk and rootball of a 4' plant. And chose a variety that will stretch to 4 to 5' from that 1' starting point that can yield really well. that would limit the type of plants u could use to be really efficient.

If going the 4 plant flowering route with 2 vegging u could do whatever strain u want cause u can veg and shape the plants as u need to.

Did u take a look at that tree thread I was telling u about? Heath hit a 76oz plant with 8 weeks veg under a 400w and 1500w flowering. U could do the same by starting with a well developed 1' plant, then vegged for the 30 some day style ur doing now. He also used 600s in the x pattern like ur doing for flowering too.

 

[av8or]

I think that u can out yield 6 1' plants by doing ur strategy of 4 in flower and 2 in veg. U can be reloading huge veg'd bushes that can yield several pounds if u chose to give them the wattage and space, which u have plenty of both.

If flowering from 1' of veg id top that 1' plant at least 5 times and have a stalk and rootball of a 4' plant. And chose a variety that will stretch to 4 to 5' from that 1' starting point that can yield really well. that would limit the type of plants u could use to be really efficient.

If going the 4 plant flowering route with 2 vegging u could do whatever strain u want cause u can veg and shape the plants as u need to.

Did u take a look at that tree thread I was telling u about? Heath hit a 76oz plant with 8 weeks veg under a 400w and 1500w flowering. U could do the same by starting with a well developed 1' plant, then vegged for the 30 some day style ur doing now. He also used 600s in the x pattern like ur doing for flowering too.

As a matter of fact, the very first thread I read when starting my research 16 months ago was Heath's Latest Tree Grow. That's what inspired me to grow trees and go with vertical lighting. I need to spend some more time in that thread, picking out pertinent info that I'm sure I didn't comprehend the first time through.

As for topping early and making thick root balls and stems, that's exactly what I've been doing. Nugbuckets on rollitup called that technique "mainlining" but he really focused on symmetrical colas being build for even distrobution of nutes throughout the plant.

The problem I'm having with those little topped bonsai 12" mini trees is they all get sooooo bushy in that cramped veg room that all the thick laterals on the very side of the plant tend to grow and fall completely outward instead of up. I'm trying things up as best I can but I am positive I'm working too hard there.

The Sour Urkels I have flowering right now we're both pretty stressed and slightly sick when they were flipped. They're stretch almost didn't exist. Maybe 8-10", whereas these healthy J1 clones are stretching double they're height (32" of stretch in as many days).

From what I've read, I expect the next plant, Jillybean, to stretch from 30" to 60-75". All my plants prior to the last couple weeks have been super stressed while being flipped. This might account for the recent insane stretch I'm seeing. Now that I have stopped being a bull in a China shop, the plants seem to be responding well.

So far, I absolutely love how the Sour Urkel and J1 strains are performing. It seems that a stable sativa dominant hybrid really explodes in this system.

What strains have you all been having the best success with?

I want to find seeds for both of the strains mentioned above. That's proving difficult. Maybe I need to get some parents and start learning to breed.

Back to Heath's yields...if I remember correctly, the biggest plants he grew side by side with three lights on the ends and in the middle. I have only grown vertical so far so I can't determine the difference, but are most of the ppk tree growers using vertical lighting too? I'm tossing around the idea (after reading Rotel's latest thread) of building another room of similar size and put a 600 watt lamp above each plant and hook all the lights collectively to a light mover. Maybe use auxikary vertical flouros or LEDs between the plants. I wonder if this will alleviate some spacing issues as the plants won't have to content with vertical bare bulbs.

The decision right now is to stay at my suburban house and turn the entire garage and den into grow rooms and also build a 20x20' greenhouse that is an extension of the house, or to move back out to the country and do real grown-up greenhouses.

So many decisions to make. No rush, though. There's a dab waiting for me downstairs and some good buddies on their way over to make sure the dabs are any good. All my friends have become permanent taste testers of the fruits of my labors. Convenient for them, I'd say!

 

[Miraculous Meds]

U have seen the results heath did. U are pretty close to being set up that way already. Why not just dial in the style ur doing. That would be my advice. One tid bit I picked out of his thread after brushing thru it again was on those monster plants he did, he veg'd vert with a 400w hps 2 plants, no topping for 8 weeks. I think he flipped around 3' and finished around 5' with 2' of planter space and a 7' ceiling. Id give that way a go. U seen the results, and they speak for themselves.

Another thing that im sure of with ur style of growing that heath, dhf, and others always said was that 50/50 sat/indica hybrids usually perform the best.

 

[Miraculous Meds]

In response to our posts in snooks thread, u have to know ur strains and their capabilities, and how to train them, how big to veg before flipping so they fill in almost perfectly without over growing but filling in the canopy area. So don't count ur chickens before they hatch. Don't count on several pound plants ur first couple times trying to dial this in.

To borrow a quote from my bud DHF, nothing replaces having runs under yer belt. After u run the strain a few times u will have a better feel for when to do all these things. The only thing u can do to shorten the learning curve would be to take a known cut from somebody that's already dialed it in, in a similar style of grow because the same cut will respond differently to different lighting and environments.