Are Females more Homogeneous?

[Spaventa]

A question for those who have run large numbers and the well read.
We are talking about F1 hybrid offspring. Let’s say the females can be clearly grouped into 3 distinct phenotypes. If you had 10 males from that same seed, would there likewise be 3 distinct phenotypes? Or are they less homogeneous? That my suspicion from the few I’ve killed aling the way. No two looked like twins the way females do. Thoughts?

 

[Creeperpark]

A question for those who have run large numbers and the well read.
We are talking about F1 hybrid offspring. Let’s say the females can be clearly grouped into 3 distinct phenotypes. If you had 10 males from that same seed, would there likewise be 3 distinct phenotypes? Or are they less homogeneous? That my suspicion from the few I’ve killed aling the way. No two looked like twins the way females do. Thoughts?

That mostly depends on the strain and how many times it's run.

 

[mudballs]

Yeah i would agree with that...i think it has to do with the Y chromosome and how it doesn't mix the same as females XX. It creates 'harder' more noticeable delineation of plant phenos in males...up to and including sterile males. That's the clue, we dont get sterile females really.

 

[Nannymouse]

The thing with the males, i'll have to pay attention to that.

I did have a female chocolate trip that was a witch about taking pollen. The male was in with her and his sister stbg13's, for a long time, too. His sisters were loaded with seed. The CTP ended up with only 2, very deep, hard to find seeds. I was so upset, that i tossed her, thinking that i would get another female out of the CTP seed. Nope, just males, ha. (they certainly had no problem, and i sure watched for that with their progeny, even at 75% all was good, so probably a fluke.)

 

[CharlesU Farley]

It's my belief these days it's difficult to talk about the term "hybrid". Because I think the vast majority of cannabis these days is not only poly hybrid, but multi, poly hybrid. I'm not sure what varietal you're working with, but these terms mean different things to different people, depending on their experience.

With that being said, I've recently done a deep dive on Nevil, and you may find this educational, or not. I'm an FNG around here and really don't know who knows what, who doesn't, but I recognized a nym in this thread, so that's why I'm posting this.

A direct cut and paste from one of Nevils post on Mr Nice:


Most super clones are often hybrids to begin with. So if you are crossing the clone to itself (selfing) you are creating a F2 of a hybrid. Not exactly a formula for success as a rule.

I would expect similar results from putting the clone to it's brother. Ah, and here we have the problem. Pick a random arsehole seed merchant, he can buy good clones, but he doesn't have seed from the batch that produced the clone in the first place and doesn't know the ancestry to know what strains he is doubling up on if he makes hybrids with it. He can be lucky, sporadically.

I'd be very careful about using daughters of selfed plants for breeding if I wanted to avoid hermaphrodites (and I do). It can be done safely however, all you need to do is try and get pollen from the female in question. If you do, it's not a true female, but half of the females should be OK. Don't forget that the phenotype (outward appearance) is only half the story. As breeders, we are concerned with the genotype (i.e. what genes a plant contains).

As I said, I smoked the HzC male after it was feminised and it was nice, but the daughters that I admired most were throw backs toplants whose presence was barely hinted at in the feminised phenotype. Hope that this helps.
N


I don't have a dog in the haze fight, don't know don't care. But the genius of this man shines through, if you understand genetics and the development of the cannabis plant, in almost every post that I read from him, that's not typical forum trash talking bullshit.

He was very good at that too. Him and Tom Hill had some very interesting "conversations".

Can't believe Shanti let Nevil be a forum Admin over there, that'd be like asking _me_ to be one _here_.

 

[Dime]

I think it depends on the stability of the parents .Normally both parents are IBL to assure consistency of offspring but mainstream seeds are polys and it's not often cannabis seed companies will offer them due to an easy knock off.There are many types of plant hybridization and the real goal of hybridization is to create genetic variation ,transfer and fix the characteristics you want if they pass it on, or general improvement, so when you see this variation you are successful because now you can take it further. You then keep culling until you get closer then finally make it an IBL and keep going till there is no further improvement but it's still a roll of the dice and luck.If you refer to phenotype,enough grows will eventually make most "look" similar due to environmental stresses because when it adapts it is more likely to survive. All cannabis turns weedy on it's on own.You could also see it the other way around and male phenotypes be uniform than females. Like all living things,you will always see subtle differences in each plant if you look hard enough.

 

[Sanjuro]

I would say it’s a matter of stability of the parents and perhaps dominance of some plants rather than a matter of sex

Unstable (phenotypes) females breed unstable seeds that will grow many different types of females

 

[Spaventa]

ok put it this way, when you got homogenous females or they all fitted into 2 or 3 distinct phenotypes, did you see similar homogenous phenotypes in the males? I grew serious seeds chronic once decades ago and it was incredibly homogenous but I didn’t get enough males to know if the males were similarly homogenous and grouped into a couple of phenos.
I suspect they are far less homogenous than females.

 

[CharlesU Farley]

ok put it this way, when you got homogenous females or they all fitted into 2 or 3 distinct phenotypes, did you see similar homogenous phenotypes in the males? I grew serious seeds chronic once decades ago and it was incredibly homogenous but I didn’t get enough males to know if the males were similarly homogenous and grouped into a couple of phenos.
I suspect they are far less homogenous than females.

I think I understand what you're trying to get at now. One of the major things that true cannabis developers did back in the day was to standardize, and for lack of a better word homogenize, disparate cannabis types into a consistently reproducible phenotype.

My only experience for the last 24 years has been with Sensi's late '90s release of Northern Lights. For many many generations, both males and females were consistently typical for the standard NL, Christmas tree shape, almost no smell, nice buds that work their wonders for me and my PTSD.

Along about F5-F6, things started getting weird, which I totally expected. Started to see the occasional different phenotype than the standard. After many grows, I got the three major phenotypes that went into the creation of NL, all in one grow:

Up until the F5 grow, almost all the plants both male and female look like the one on the right, standard Christmas tree NL structure.

Initially, I concentrated on the Type II/Indica dominant plants but fucked around with Type I/Sativa ones as well. The Type I didn't work so well in my environment, and I always have to say this before the armchair cannabis doctors comment, the environment _inside_ the tent when this pic was taken was 80+% RH and mid-30s Fahrenheit temp.That's why the leaf sag/crab claw.:

On the Type II side, here are the typical males and they're fairly consistent in structure, but not as standard as the original Sensi release:

Here's the last straight run of males I ran to pick these two out:

So it's been my experience that both males and females are consistent when they come from parental units that have been stabilized and homogenized like Neville did with NL.

After the lines got separated out, they were remarkably, yet consistently inconsistent, based on the lines that they originally came from. But the separated lines breed true to form, both males and females... at least that's been my experience.

Best of luck to you, because a lot of that is involved.

 

[mudballs]

ok put it this way, when you got homogenous females or they all fitted into 2 or 3 distinct phenotypes, did you see similar homogenous phenotypes in the males? I grew serious seeds chronic once decades ago and it was incredibly homogenous but I didn’t get enough males to know if the males were similarly homogenous and grouped into a couple of phenos.
I suspect they are far less homogenous than females.

No, i see more diversity, generally..but i may be more tuned into the slightest variation more than others.
Tent full of males

I've ran a LOT more males than the avg grower and when im looking for a particular quality or trait in males, i say no a lot..."no, were not using that one, no to that one...no...no"
The males have a uniformity but don't show homogeneity until like f4 and up..in my experience

 

[Spaventa]

I have theory about why it may be that males are essentially unique individuals. It’s a theory because the facts that lead me to theorise about cannabis plants Y chromosomes are about humans.
The Y chromosome is the only part of the human genome that is copied exactly in every generation. This is why geneticists were able to determine that 6 in 200 human males is descended from Genghis Khan. Such a determination could never be made with a female ancestor because the X is rebuilt in every individual. The Y chromosome codes for 100s of proteins that are instrumental in many characteristics other than sex.
It is only in males that traits are passed on intact. Everything other than the Y chromosome is altered.

 

[mudballs]

Yeah hempy calls it "ancestral memory"

 

[Spaventa]

The conclusion is that feminised versions of regular strains will drift from the original character of the strain because there is no Y chromosome to carry over a perfect copy.

It would explain why the most characteristic trait of Neville’s Haze was lost with the feminised version. I strongly suspect that the frankincense/church/musk aroma to the burning NH buds came from the Haze C father. It all fits. The loud church in the air is a paternal trait in NH so abscent in the fem version?

 

[Betterhaff]

Inbreeding hybrids is a crap shoot. You’re going to have to grow a lot of offspring to find what you’re looking for