it's the humus that regulates everything, starting at around 10%
Albrecht - style balancing
- Thread starter xmobotx
- Start date
Y
YosemiteSam
No question humus helps. But this is talking about beyond that. chances are humus does not balance the boron vs magnesium vs calcium vs silica ratios. Chances are it does not balance the zinc vs phosphorous ratios.
Absolutely it allows you to trap more of everything in the soil which probably allows you to get away with a whole lotta stuff.
but is that the ultimate? In my opinion we will never know the ultimate...but we can work toward it...kaizen. That is what this is about. After you have your 10% humus (what analytical test measures true humus vs merely carbon btw?) then what is next? Me thinks mineral balancing might be that next thing.
So not arguing about humus...but after you have that, then what? Call it good...not a terrible idea. But i am looking for more.
Absolutely it allows you to trap more of everything in the soil which probably allows you to get away with a whole lotta stuff.
but is that the ultimate? In my opinion we will never know the ultimate...but we can work toward it...kaizen. That is what this is about. After you have your 10% humus (what analytical test measures true humus vs merely carbon btw?) then what is next? Me thinks mineral balancing might be that next thing.
So not arguing about humus...but after you have that, then what? Call it good...not a terrible idea. But i am looking for more.
nitrates issue has been a concern to me as well
something i found interesting reading along these albrecht lines was his advocacy of legumes for N fixing rather than making N additions w/ a potential for nitrate and nitrite buildup
even w/ living soil its easy to add too much N resulting in leggy plants and poor fruiting
so; start w/ good compost and EWC ensure diversity minimizing N sources and one may not have to add it all up and divide but sometimes its a surprise when you do! cover crop w/ legumes; kind of a best of all worlds approach {minimize P and apply AM too}
it seems like the diversity approach is still best just w/ this info one can maybe taylor the mix to avoid pitfalls
something i found interesting reading along these albrecht lines was his advocacy of legumes for N fixing rather than making N additions w/ a potential for nitrate and nitrite buildup
even w/ living soil its easy to add too much N resulting in leggy plants and poor fruiting
so; start w/ good compost and EWC ensure diversity minimizing N sources and one may not have to add it all up and divide but sometimes its a surprise when you do! cover crop w/ legumes; kind of a best of all worlds approach {minimize P and apply AM too}
it seems like the diversity approach is still best just w/ this info one can maybe taylor the mix to avoid pitfalls
well, remember living mulches are still severely limited in most gardens by light.
in low light legumes don't fix N very well.
we aren't there yet for the average grower.
however a pea or bean used sparingly in a trellis situation might produce some real N in the 12/12
another option is outdoor window boxes in which we crop clovers. then we cut it out like turf and have instant coverage in containers. that's real free N, not from electricity
does clover fix N under LED?
in low light legumes don't fix N very well.
we aren't there yet for the average grower.
however a pea or bean used sparingly in a trellis situation might produce some real N in the 12/12
another option is outdoor window boxes in which we crop clovers. then we cut it out like turf and have instant coverage in containers. that's real free N, not from electricity
does clover fix N under LED?
Y
YosemiteSam
The one part of Albrecht i do not understand at all is the high use of P. How in the world does that not kill mycos? Plus how in the world does it not tie up Ca and Fe?
They claim P is important for Brix production. I may do a side by side with P being the only difference. I can measure Brix weekly or something and see for myself.
yeah seems like montana or someone posted that albrechts ratio was by weight and by percentage its closer to 1:1; i m guessin
thats actually why i make that distinction after reading the 'myth of th hi P myth' thread and considering myco's lo tolerance for P
i had been of the school that one increases P for flowering; no longer
mad kinda thinkn N fixing at hi rates could be undesirable; i value th living mulch concept more and more
but particularly in flowering; in a diverse mix w/ NSM {fairly hi N} we could easily get too much
i.e. i like the idea of alfalfa tea too; why i throw diverse in the above is multiple small N sources add up as well
cant remember the source {maybe high times} but i read early on about limiting N; which proved to be valuable info
thats actually why i make that distinction after reading the 'myth of th hi P myth' thread and considering myco's lo tolerance for P
i had been of the school that one increases P for flowering; no longer
mad kinda thinkn N fixing at hi rates could be undesirable; i value th living mulch concept more and more
but particularly in flowering; in a diverse mix w/ NSM {fairly hi N} we could easily get too much
i.e. i like the idea of alfalfa tea too; why i throw diverse in the above is multiple small N sources add up as well
cant remember the source {maybe high times} but i read early on about limiting N; which proved to be valuable info
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YosemiteSam
A couple of the Albrecht influenced companies sell so called complete fertilizers for container or home veggie gardening. elemental wise they are around 4-2-2...so 1:1 P:K.
In a 50/50 blend of coco/#3 perlite and a few handfuls of ewc I have been running 98N-60P-75K-120Ca-50Mg-70S plus micros and it looks like it is going to kill for me. I am like 3.5 weeks into flower and have more bud sites than I have ever produced. That is 1/2 the K I would normally run.
I went ahead and got some Albion Metalosate Ca so I can go ahead and bump Ca to 150 and we will see what we will see. if that works the next step for me is to see if I can match those numbers organically and take a shot at that side by side with the salt fed coco.
It is actually far easier to achieve these levels of Ca with organic amendments. Plus I can work to eliminate nitrate inputs.
In a 50/50 blend of coco/#3 perlite and a few handfuls of ewc I have been running 98N-60P-75K-120Ca-50Mg-70S plus micros and it looks like it is going to kill for me. I am like 3.5 weeks into flower and have more bud sites than I have ever produced. That is 1/2 the K I would normally run.
I went ahead and got some Albion Metalosate Ca so I can go ahead and bump Ca to 150 and we will see what we will see. if that works the next step for me is to see if I can match those numbers organically and take a shot at that side by side with the salt fed coco.
It is actually far easier to achieve these levels of Ca with organic amendments. Plus I can work to eliminate nitrate inputs.
Y
YosemiteSam
Refractometer Use
Refractometer Use
http://www.nutri-tech.com.au/blog/2009/09/
Watch the video on how to use a refractometer...loaded with all kinds of interesting info.
Refractometer Use
http://www.nutri-tech.com.au/blog/2009/09/
Watch the video on how to use a refractometer...loaded with all kinds of interesting info.
Yeah but if you don't fix N in flower when are you fixing N? My containers are under 12/12 more than 2/3rds of the time. I think worrying about too much N fixation is silly considering h8w much energy it takes to make that happen.
exactly; some N fixing is going to be going on and no point really encouraging more or worrying
some vertical runs might prove interesting though
living mulch is sound
Montana
Member
"The Ideal Soil" .......Inspired by Albrecht and Reams to name a few.....that's where that copy paste came from........I posted it because it's directly related to Albrecht.....and clay.....and calcium....
www.soilminerals.com
check it out......even if you don't order the book there is a ton of good reads on the website......
www.soilminerals.com
check it out......even if you don't order the book there is a ton of good reads on the website......
reading much of the albrecht stuff got me thinking this thread might be a good idea
i like the idea that diversity is enough and the mix can be simple w/ little math
it seems that plant based amendments tend to keep your ratios good w/o the math so that is plenty for most growers
no harm in learning more though or even learning why
i like the idea that diversity is enough and the mix can be simple w/ little math
it seems that plant based amendments tend to keep your ratios good w/o the math so that is plenty for most growers
no harm in learning more though or even learning why
Bump.....
...Anyone care to share soil recipes that they have formulated or discovered using Albrechts ratios?
...Anyone care to share soil recipes that they have formulated or discovered using Albrechts ratios?
Y
YosemiteSam
A couple of yrs ago I ran Tom Hill's big plant recipe...chicken shit, bone meal and gypsum in Black Gold Natural and Organic Potting Soil with a little perlite added. It came surprisingly close but was too hot anything under say a 7 lb plant.
Here is the analysis.
If you were to add a little more drainage amendment to get the total cec down a little bit and then replace part of the gysum with dolomite you could come pretty close to dead on. That would also have the benefit of raising the pH some for me and reducing the cation saturation of H a little bit (I would prefer 12%).
The formula does lack micros though...so you either have to foliar or mineralize the formula a little. And adjust the strength for the size plants you are running.
If you wanna do it chemically here is what I am up to... I start with either Black Gold peat or coco and then amend that with 1/2 cup per cubic ft of CaCO3 for peat or CaSO4 for coco.
Then:
CaNO3....3.125 grams per gallon
epsom 1.72
mkp 0.72
k2so4 0.28
stem 0.1
fe dpta 0.1
128-43- 85-150-43-69 elemental N-P-K-Ca-Mg-S
Ca:Mg 3.5 (does not include the amended amounts)
This hits Albrecht pretty much dead on. But, I feel, it uses more NO3 than I would really like...so further experiments with a little more amended Ca and less CaNO3 need to be conducted.
Perhaps better yet is very high quality humus, living soil, a very high cec and quit worrying about it altogether.
There are probably a million ways to achieve this with amendments also. A basic understanding will get you close and then tinkering will dial you in. Or better yet just reusing the soil and learning to reamend with stuff to get you where you want to go.
Here is the analysis.
If you were to add a little more drainage amendment to get the total cec down a little bit and then replace part of the gysum with dolomite you could come pretty close to dead on. That would also have the benefit of raising the pH some for me and reducing the cation saturation of H a little bit (I would prefer 12%).
The formula does lack micros though...so you either have to foliar or mineralize the formula a little. And adjust the strength for the size plants you are running.
If you wanna do it chemically here is what I am up to... I start with either Black Gold peat or coco and then amend that with 1/2 cup per cubic ft of CaCO3 for peat or CaSO4 for coco.
Then:
CaNO3....3.125 grams per gallon
epsom 1.72
mkp 0.72
k2so4 0.28
stem 0.1
fe dpta 0.1
128-43- 85-150-43-69 elemental N-P-K-Ca-Mg-S
Ca:Mg 3.5 (does not include the amended amounts)
This hits Albrecht pretty much dead on. But, I feel, it uses more NO3 than I would really like...so further experiments with a little more amended Ca and less CaNO3 need to be conducted.
Perhaps better yet is very high quality humus, living soil, a very high cec and quit worrying about it altogether.
There are probably a million ways to achieve this with amendments also. A basic understanding will get you close and then tinkering will dial you in. Or better yet just reusing the soil and learning to reamend with stuff to get you where you want to go.
Ok so Im trying to figure out my ratios in a soil recipe that I have. If Im using natural amendments like alfalfa meal, feather meal etc how do I calculate the total values of the completed soil? Do I still need to figure it by its molecular weight of each value % ? Or just link me to where I need find this info. Much appreciated, thanks in advance.
Y
YosemiteSam
Organically it is not that easy. The exact nute ratios would depend on what that alfalfa or whatever the feathers came off of.
Far better to take a sample of your soil to the local university extension and get total cec and base cation saturation tests done. From there you can make informed guesses to get you closer.
And again, the higher you get your cec the less precise you need to be.
Far better to take a sample of your soil to the local university extension and get total cec and base cation saturation tests done. From there you can make informed guesses to get you closer.
And again, the higher you get your cec the less precise you need to be.
FunTimesIndeed
Member
Bumped for justice.
Boyd Crowder
Teem MiCr0B35
Bumped For Recent Thread Activity
I've got a spot in se usa clay soil. in this particular location the native vegetation is very sparse; just scrub veg. type stuff. I went in yesterday and prepped a few holes. the soil had earthworms, felt and looked fine but the old hole sites (used it a couple years ago), had nothing growing in them; bare.
last grow attempt in this location was a failure. looked like acidic burn when summer temps hit.
I'm using over 1.5 # of lime mix ( 60/40 calcitic/dolomite) in each cubic 18" hole. I've added pre-chelated azomite, kelp, bone meal, chicken manure in relatively small amounts. I cut down some trees and branches and the spot is well hidden, yet very well lit now. will be putting in some healthy very late flowering cuts in veg. state with well established 12" deep rootball soon.
i'll heavily top dress with more lime mix in a 3' ( 36") diameter and work it down into the soil late spring.
guerilla grow. making the most out of each trip in. staying out as much as possible.
^ will be a nice test of Albrecht's method. will photo document including pics. of sparse indigenous vegetation.
Albrecht's method for amending existing soil. tub grows in my location have no chance due to excessive aerial surveillance.
subbed.
last grow attempt in this location was a failure. looked like acidic burn when summer temps hit.
I'm using over 1.5 # of lime mix ( 60/40 calcitic/dolomite) in each cubic 18" hole. I've added pre-chelated azomite, kelp, bone meal, chicken manure in relatively small amounts. I cut down some trees and branches and the spot is well hidden, yet very well lit now. will be putting in some healthy very late flowering cuts in veg. state with well established 12" deep rootball soon.
i'll heavily top dress with more lime mix in a 3' ( 36") diameter and work it down into the soil late spring.
guerilla grow. making the most out of each trip in. staying out as much as possible.
^ will be a nice test of Albrecht's method. will photo document including pics. of sparse indigenous vegetation.
Albrecht's method for amending existing soil. tub grows in my location have no chance due to excessive aerial surveillance.
subbed.
