8 Plants x 8 Lights. Farmer's New Toys

[high life 45]

Looking good reguardless of your nute situation. How does your sante fe do? I am about to pull the trigger on a dehumidifier.

I only have 5" of media in my top buckets and the plants are nearly 6' tall. You could probably cut the strong box down to 1/3 or even 1/4 of the original size. setting the tail piece might be tricky.

 

[sheik_yerbouti]

Ya I can see the tip burn for sure, that's a pretty crazy high EC. Impressive your only getting a little tip burn, tough plants.

As for the N def, could be lockout but one thing to consider is that the maxibloom could have too little N in the ratio for flowering. Pretty common problem with bloom specific formula's. Maybe add a little grow formula into the mix to get your leaves green again. A little too early for them to start going yellow like that for sure. Burn doesn't look too bad though, your def on top of things to catch it and fix it.

Are those 1000w or 600w? Curious to know how far away you keep your lights.

 

[FlowerFarmer]

Thanks guys,

I was kinda flying blind with my EC truncheon meter at another spot. I was mixing maxibloom at 7g/gal with silicate. DHF thought I might be seeing a CaMg issue so I started tossing 5mL/Gal on top of what I was doing without having a meter handy.

When I did get a meter my juice was 2.0-2.2. I figured I was nearing burn/lockout and started to see some clawing near my tops. I started to hit them with diluted juice with CaMg, but wasnt really setup for lots of run-off. Then I rigged up these totes to handle my run-off and started drenching them daily with 1.0-1.2 (dropped the CaMg) with quite a bit of run-off.

Now, my run-off keeps getting mixed with the prior days run-off, but after a few days of drenching with 1.0-1.2 I am reading 1.4-1.6 down in my lower tote. ... fearing that it was still a little too hot I drenched hard with .6 EC last night.. and will do again tonight. Hopefully that'll keep them clear of further burn and I'll continue watering with half strength maxibloom and silicate which puts me right at 1.0-1.2.

I need the silicate to bring me up as my RO is coming out very very low as opposed to the 7.0 it used to come out at. I need to change my whole house sediment, but why is my RO so low.. should be fairly neutral should it not?


HL, definitely going with your suggestion of the two yellow top totes for my PPK. Watch for it after this run. The sante fe works.. I havnt had bud rot in this sealed room and prevented it in all but one cola in my vented circles space with this sante fe by the intake. Don't really have anything to compare to.. I wanna say Pheonix is something someone else was rocking here.. good thread on all of them somewhere around here. The sante fes are $1600.. I'll have to crawl in there at night to see how low its actually getting my RH. I have it set at around 60-70% to kick on during lights off, but will drop to 35% late bloom.

SY,
600w lights in the corners. 1000w lights in that middle diamond. 6400w total. Not sure distance..will get back to you.
When I go PPK I might bump all lights to 1000w.




Looking forward to trying PPKs and Jacks 5-12-26 + CalNit soon.

 

[hotboxes]

FF those are some freaking awesome looking bushes inspite of your high EC.

 

[Jamorg13]

You must have some massive airflow creating some strong ass branches. I have huge cages around each of mine and they still flop around.

 

[FlowerFarmer]

Thanks,

These Rhinos seem to be a nice vertical strain.

I wish I had some earlier shots of these bushes. This batch got nearly killed after I left for 2 weeks and my blumat reservoir ran dry. Help arrived to find it empty and gave them straight RO/ not pH'd to keep them wet until I returned, but they essentially starved to near death.

They've been limp with no water, they've been starved, they've been recently fed too strong.. locked out/deficient and they still look OK. I think I'll be in good shape unless these issues get up into the buds before harvest.. then I'll be cussin' up a storm playing surgeon trying to snip dead tips out of the buds..lol..never again.

Hopefully I can put 10lbs+ in my pocket....(thats what I got last round' different strains, but this one looks fuller and more uniform with the monocrop going on now.


*** I noticed a few mited leaves on that little deathstar in the corner. I've been mite free for years but of course brought some in with some new genetics that "are totally clean.. I swear". They havnt seemed to touch the trees, but I've got a month to go and don't need to risk anything. I pyrethrum bombed early in the game right before the flip with two Pro-Control Plus in this 11x16 room, but foolishly didnt follow up as I should have.

Now they appear to be back and are threatening this crop. Whats the best thing to do at this point. 28 days flower. Bomb.. wait a few days and bomb again before we get too late in the game?

I've got a atomizer sprayer if its not too late to spray something natural on them. I've got access to azamax, spinosad, mighty wash, neem, SNS217, but have no experienced with any of them. I have a burner in here so I could try the co2 thing, but again.. never messed with it before.

Whats my best coarse of action at this point?
Don't want to use anything harmful obviously...


Jamorg, no real airflow. Its a sealed co2 space.. no in/out...just a split on a wall and 2 wallmounts under it. Another fan blowing co2 around below my burner. Maybe its the co2..silicate likely has a lot to do with it. They've stayed very "together" despite the many branches, but will start snapping before too long. I've got yo-yos ready to come down from the caging ceilings, but really these ladies should have been caged up themselves. I'm notorious for not doing the things I should and tell myself that I'm going to do (supporting properly and defoliating a bit)..and then doing it again.

 

[Kit Kat]

Azamax/Neem would be a good one to spray atomized if you have the capability. It acts as an anti-feedant for mites so they're unable to consume and continue on. I've not used any of the others you listed except spinosad as a soil drench and wouldn't know. I've also had good experience with rosemary essential oil at 2% by volume and used it as one of three rotation sprays when I dealt with mites at a horrible location.

 

[SRGB]

Top-Feed-Drain-To-No-Waste; Root Growth; External Reservoirs; Electrical conductivity

Top-Feed-Drain-To-No-Waste; Root Growth; External Reservoirs; Electrical conductivity

FlowerFarmer at #199:

Thanks for the insight everyone.

Half a strong box on top of another strong box might be a hair too big as I've got square ducting overhead limiting my head space, but I will look into it further. Might just work... those would be some hogs.

Here is where I stand now. 28 days flower.
As I might have mentioned previously once I got a truncheon EC meter back in hand I found that I'd been hitting them very hot with maxibloom with the addition of silicate and calmag. (like around 2.0-2.2)...run-off was off the charts in the neighborhood of 2.8-3.2.

I immediately rigged totes under them for ample run-off and started drenching them heavily with maxibloom and silicate at around 1.0-1.2EC. Unfortunately with my 1/2" drains the totes want to fill up before they can drain fast enough..leaving the plants in run-off for a little while as they drain. Not sure I'm getting an adequate flush. At the time of these pics I hit them heavy with .6-.8 EC.. my run-off from each day is combining as I have a standing inch below my pots that are raised up a little. This water doesnt fully drain, buts its currently reading around 1.4-1.6.

Going to keep hitting them with light nutes and hopefully they recover without too much issue. I've got a bit of claw.. a bit of tip burn, and then a yellowing (lockout likely?) slowly moving up the plants. Inner depths of the plants have some leaf death. I'd like to defoilate a bit, but dont want to speed up or exacerbate the issues to where I'll have dead/yellowing leaves moving into the buds.

Take a look. Almost looks like a N Def, but think its lockout due to high EC. I also just now returned my dehumidifier to the room so prior night RH was skyrocketing.. not sure if this can cause issues as shown.

All in all..these are some hogs.. Hopefully I can get another month without creating a nightmare trim job if the deficiency reaches the lower bud leaf sets.

Hi, FlowerFarmer.

Nice gardening.

We recently made a post, relevant to iron, that might be helpful relevant to your observed foliage yellowing:

HL45.PPK.1.0 17lightsx2 Sealed with Co2 #856

--

Relevant to external basins, root growth, nutrient and run-off management, we found during experiments that if an Square Root® Brand Garden Bag (SRBGB) was placed directly onto the surface of an external basin, or raised on a layer of 1/2 inch pumice, it was possible to simply water once per 24 hour period until a low level of run-off accumulated by drainage through the SRBGB.

Roots would continue to grow through the SRBGB into the run-off in the external basin.

Top Feed Drain To No Waste; Root Growth
In such a system, the plant or tree would be top-fed once per 24 hour period. The volume of nutrient solution applied by top-feed would equate to the approximate amount of nutrient solution that would drain out of the SRBGB into the external basin. Depending on the size of the plant or tree, and the medium inside of the SRBGB, that amount varies. However, the gardener would quickly determine the exact amount of nutrient solution actually uptaken by the plant of tree by the rate at which the nutrient solution was depleted in the basin.

For example, for a 1 liter SRBGB, the run-off level that would be desirable would be approximately 1/16 inch (1.6 millimeters).
See Square Root® Brand Garden Bag - Roots.

For a 10 gallon SRBGB, under intense light, the run-off level accumulation in the basin would be approximately 1 to 1 1/2gallon per 24 hour period.

The goal of such a method is to supply only the nutrient solution that the plant or tree actually used during a 24 hour period, as evaluated by the depletion of run-off inside of the external basin.

The plant or tree is supplied with a fresh volume of nutrient solution every 24hrs.

The run-off is not pitched as waste, nor recirculated; it is used by the plant or tree within that 24hr period.

The plant or tree is thus never underwatered, nor overwatered. Nor is there any waste of the supplied nutrient solution.

Square Root® Brand Garden Bag (SRBGB`s) are designed to promote vigorous continued root growth through the walls and bottom of the SRBGB, without restriction, without `pruning`; additionally encouraging continued root growth into an external basin of shallow run-off. SRBGB`s also provide nearly full drainage of the applied nutrient solution, save for the amount held in a given soilless medium.

See SRBGB-Roots, where a 1 liter SRBGB was placed into a 5 gallon, then a 20 gallon SRBGB for continued growth of the roots and cultivar into a larger plant or small tree.

See Square Root® Brand Garden Bag - Roots Gallery, post #1, illustrations #4, #5, #6 and #7 (from top), for eventual root growth around the 1 liter SRBGB, and into the surrounding media of the 20 gallon (88 liter) SRBGB. Roots eventually grew through the 20 gallon into the external basin. Once roots grew into the moisture of run-off into external basin holding the 20 gallon SRBGB, the amount of water to top-feed could be accurately calculated by the inverse of water depletion by the plant or tree over a given period.

For our experiments, we found that a plant or tree could be watered during a 24-48hr period. To provide an external basin with constant fresh nutrient solution, watering once per 24 hour period tended to accomplish this. A 48 hour period provided for a span of damp to drier conditions in the external basin, and correspondingly, in the top portion of the medium inside of the SRBGB.

The ultimate object of such a described approach, or method, was to effectively
1) utilize the entirety of the applied top-fed nutrient solution;
2) eliminate waste;
3) eliminate an arbitrary feeding routine; instead feeding only when the external basin depleted (when the plant or tree had signaled that moisture was required by the depletion level inside of the external basin);
4) providing a `fresh` (pH; miilimoles; EC; ppm; etc.) nutrient solution every 24-48hrs - pH being the primary variable to manage; and
5) maximizing efficiency by eliminated waste, utilizing 90+% of the applied nutrient solution, and promoting plant or tree health by preventing overwatering or underwatering

This method can be achieved either by hand-watering, or automated watering. Once the plant or trees` roots have grown into the external basin, the gardener is able to tailor the feed volume by examining the exact amount of water that is uptaken by the specific cultivar over the given period, and then continue to supply that exact amount by top-feeding for the entire season.

For a 1 liter SRBGB, the amount applied might be between 1/3 to 1/2 liter per 24hrs, depending on the size of the cultivar, the garden conditions (temperatures, evaporation rates, relative humidity, air movement, dehumidification, etc.).

For a 10 or 20 gallon SRBGB, the amount applied by top-feed might be between 1/2 gallon to 1 1/2 gallons per 24hr period.

Root Growth
The standing run-off that you describe beneath the risen media-holding container is not an issue - as long as roots are in contact with the run-off and are able to grow into that solution without restriction. Only a small amount of solution is needed to facilitate continued root growth. The issue of pH alteration or compounded nutrient accumulation might be accrued if nutrient solution is applied even if there is standing run-off inside of the external basin.

It might be advantageous to provide only the amount (volume) of top-fed nutrient solution that will actually be used over a 24hr period. There is no need to water a plant or tree multiple times per 24hr period when the roots have direct access to moisture (run-off and on the collidial surfaces of the media itself). Continued multiple watering might `overwater` the roots, as roots do require oxygen to continue healthy growth and compound element absortion (ionic exchange). Over-saturated media combined with saturation beneath the container might create a continuous column of moisture that decreases potential for oxygen to permeate the container and promote root growth into the external basin.

Roots will grow out of the sides of the Square Root® Garden Bag, where little moisture is present, save for the wicked dampness held in the actual SRBGB. Note the first illustration of post #3 at Square Root® Brand Garden Bag - Roots; where roots have only began growing out of the sides of the SRBGB - above the thin-film of run-off accumulated in the basin of the external reservoir. Roots tend grow into `thin air`, when the run-off level in the basin depletes to a mere dampness. Note also, the progeressional growth of those roots in subsequent stages of continued growth in the illustrations that follow.

Our experiments indicated that once a portion of the primary root tip mass made contact with moisture, other portions of the root tip mass would direct their energies towards growing into environmental air. This led us to the tentative conclusion that different portions of an overall root mass, would, if given the stratified conditions, would direct its growth energies towards assimilating oxygen, while another portion still grew towards moisture.

The above dynamic conditions were observed to be more apt to lateral root tip growth into environmental air if the external reservoir had low walls (height-wise), so that the air flow of the garden was able to permeate through the walls of the SRBGB. Such low-walled selection of external reservoir might tend to increase the ability of air to flow into and out of the SRBGB - without the barrier of a high-walled reservoir.

For the specific gardening environmental conditions, and cultivar growth rates, the gardener might be able to accurately measure the exact amount of nutrient solution that the given plant or tree actually uses over a 24hr to 72hr period. Once accurately measured, the gardener might then be able to supply only that amount - without any nutrient composition fluctuations, or waste. While the nutrient solution is not `actively reciculated`, it is effectively replaced every 24hrs, without any waste by-product.

A small portion of run-off that is not uptaken by roots or does not remain as a thin film to shallow level in the basin, might evaporate due to temperatures and garden air flow.

External Reservoirs
Due to the minimal amount of accumulated run-off in the external basin - generally only 1/16 inch (1.6 mm) to 2 inches (5 cm), a high-walled external reservoir was not required. High-walled external reservoirs tended to restricted garden environmental air from flowing through the walls of the SRBGB.

Low-walled external reservoirs might tend to permit the envirnmental air flow of the garden itself to effectively aerate the SRBGB. Selection of low-walled reservoirs might effectively substitute environmental aeration of containers and roots in an external basin for mechanical aerators.

If an artificial `riser` was applied underneath the SRBGB, the low-walled reservoir, additionally permited additional air flow underneath the SRBGB. We found a layer of 1/2 inch pumice to be an option when raising the SRBGB over the surface of the basin; other methods might also work as well.

Ideally, the external reservoir dimensions would be selected to have a height only slightly higher than the run-off level accumulation for that size SRBGB.

The maximum height of a vertical wall of an external basin, reservoir or trough being approximately 4 inches (10 cm), and a width that expands for approximately 2 to 4 inches outwards from the edges of the SRBGB on either side.

The low walls permit environmental air flow through the SRBGB, and provide adequate volume for any level of desired nutrient run-off - until the level where additional run-off would create a column of saturation, without air pathways.

The additional width volume on either side of the SRBGB permits continued root growth into the run-off, while additionally exposing the roots to environmental air flow of the garden.

The additional width on either side of the SRBGB further permits the gardener to easily measure the run-off pH, EC, ppms, millimhos or other scales; or to extract the run-off, if desired.

We found no advantages to experimenting with external reservoirs that possess high walls (over 4 inches).

Even when we experimented with a variation of recirculating, mechanically aerated shallow water culture, we found that maintaining a shallow depth of nutrient solution in a low-walled external reservoir was advantageous; for three primary reasons; 1) the low-walls prevented the gardener from over-watering; 2) the environmental air flow was immediately available to the portion of the plant or trees` roots by direct exposure; 3) while a portion of a portion were constantly exposed to environmental air, roots were constantly exposed to a shallow level of run-off (moisture).

We found that a shallow basin reinforced the environmental conditions that permitted both air flow and moisture to be present in the internal medium of the SRBGB and the external basin; whether the system actively recirculated or not. Due to limiting the volume of solution in the basin, the nutrient solution was replaced every 24hrs, while constantly being in contact with environmental air. Roots, too, would be both submerged in the low-level run-off and exposed to and in contact with the same environmental air; effectively aerating the nutrient solution and roots with environmental air accessible by virtue of the low walls of the selected reservoir.

Electrical conductivity
Have you measured the pH of the input solution, medium, and run-off?

The electrical conductivity of a given solution might tend to increase if addtional conductive elements are supplied to the existing solution (or saturated medium). This might be a cause of the readings that you posted about; disproportionate root uptake of water compared to electrically active elements present in both the medium and run-off. The plant or tree might be exchanging cations both in the medium and the run-off solution, emitting the charge measured by your device. That measurement might not accurately reflect the elemental composition of the solution, but the electrical charge of the solution. As noted above, a feed-water-feed period might reduce the measured conductivity.

--

It might be possible to not only place a container into an external reservoir for further root growth and development, but also accurately calculate how much nutrient solution the plant or tree is actually using - as opposed to supplying nutrient on a timed interval basis, irrespective of the rate of water or nutrient uptake by the given specimen. Top-feeding only when the plant or tree, within those specific garden environmental conditions, has uptaken the run-off accumulation held within the external basin; as described above.

These are only some observations we found during experiments with SRBGB`s. We only post these descriptions of our experimental observations with SRBGB`s due to your current experimentations; as described in your posts, relevant to external reservoirs, nutrient management and dynamics in relation to root uptake.

Not posting that the described experiments are defnite solutions for any of the topics noted; just options that might be considered or explored by the soilless gardener during experiments.

If you would like for us to remove this post from your thread, please let us know, either by PM or posting here. Thanks.

Kind regards,
/SRGB/

 

[DaveTheNewbie]

I'd like to defoilate a bit, but dont want to speed up or exacerbate the issues to where I'll have dead/yellowing leaves moving into the buds.

my experience with fucking up defoliation is devastating. If your not sure, or if the plant isn't healthy, be VERY careful. It halved my yield and killed any bag appeal at all.

Relevant to external basins, root growth, nutrient and run-off management, we found during experiments that if an Square Root® Brand Garden Bag (SRBGB) was placed directly onto the surface of an external basin, or raised on a layer of 1/2 inch pumice, it was possible to simply water once per 24 hour period until a low level of run-off accumulated by drainage through the SRBGB.

while it felt a bit like SRGB was spamming his product a bit, there are some real gems in here. Im seriously thinking about putting my bags in a wide bucket with some rocks underneath to give me more control of watering. I think he might be on to something.

 

[Femora]

Beautiful grow! Keep this nice posting up!
I join in on this show! Better late then never, eh?

 

[FlowerFarmer]

Thanks guys...

Going to take it easy on the defoliation thing until I can dial my nute profile to avoid these issues. I've been struggling to get flawless health lately in coco...I'm hoping either jacks hydro, PPKs, or a lower EC maxibloom across the board sorts me out. I'm not so sure defoliation is the way to go with large trees like this as opposed to donuts or similar vert setups where canopy management is more critical. A bit of thinning maybe, but these ladies are being blasted with light from 3 directions/bulbs at all times.

No sweat SRGB posting in the thread. He/they PM'd me a rather informative post as well. Paid Icmag vendor so I think a bit of product mentions is within reason...it does seem like quite the copy and paste, but good info none the less.


Femora, glad you're here. This is likely the last grow in this thread then I'm gonna start up another for a hogged out PPK show. Hopefully I don't disappoint.

 

[hotboxes]

Its hard to disappoint with a PPK as you will soon find out.......

 

[DHF]

Elevated RH levels during mid-late flower during either lights on or off shuts off/closes the stomata`s down and they don`t sweat/transpire , and unused nutrients and excess water vapor that causes stored nutrients inside the plants and raises EC is a bad thingy.........anyways.....

Hope all works out FF.....

Peace....DHF...........

 

[FlowerFarmer]

I see. I do think it is a bit related to environment as well because in addition to the clawing.. the leaf edges are curled under, in a very sharp fold fashion like an upside down canoe.

Dehuey back in there now.... really could use a few of these.

 

[willyweed]

I think it's the opposite of everything...

PPKs are super easy.

Super boring.

Grow lots of healthy plants.

PPKers get super bored, and are super high.

So they talk about lots of super shit.

Which confuses people who want a tutorial.

Because the threads are full of shit that really isn't tutorial... Speculative. Random. Bastardly.

And the threads are so full of all this shit, and D9 keeps deleting his older pics making other threads (...um... excuse me) incomplete and obsolete...

But PPKs are wicked easy mechanically and functionally.

Holy shit, this was a crap post.

I like your flowers Farmer, I like your flowers.

i messaged d9 and the reason the old photo's have been deleated is because there is a limit to how many photo's you can have on icmag at any one time.just thought i would mention it kind regards.willyweed

 

[willyweed]

keep up the great work flower farmer,loved reading this grow and with all the problems have learnt loads as well many thanks .willyweed

 

[Grow4Flow]

FF,
how long are you vegging your ladies? i may have missed that part but i'd hate to go back through it all.

 

[FlowerFarmer]

Honestly I havnt really kept track of veg. I normally root out of the last round of ladies put into bloom. Keep them under a T5 sort of vegging until the room is empty again and then will usually give them some time in the big room under full HPS power until I feel they are ready to flip.

Unfortunately..the case many times.. the plants are super healthy getting my full strength food after rooting and under my T5, but as soon as I hit my HPS room things go south and I start seeing slow growth, drooped down, twisting, deficiencies, etc.

I'm not sure if it is an environmental thing (VPD?), or I've accumulated salts and the plants are up-taking differently due to the room change, or whatever. Normally takes me 2 weeks or so to sort it out and they start blowing up.

 

[ImaginaryFriend]

Lumen shock?

I've seen it... it does exist.

For a while I though it was like a unicorn. But then I seen it.

Then I saw the lumen shock.

Now I'm waiting for a 'Squach.

I've done seen 'bout everything...

 

[DHF]

If you`re still veggin your plants when yas put em in the big light room FF , then it`s more than likely as IF stated above as in lumen shock cuz ...yeah......It definitely exists....

That`s why my pre-veggers that went straight into the bloom rooms were always kept flipped @ 12/12 to allow the plants to blast off and stretch , but have the 12 hr recovery period for the adjustment factor with the HID lighting....

Next run try D9`s 8-4-8-4/DLI/daily light integral lights on/off veg schedule to allow the plants to acclimate to the increased wattage slowly and then flip em......Hope that helps and.....

Good luck......DHF..........