2 tents. Veg under CMH and flower under HPS, or veg + flower in both?

[CannaDaBiz]

Hi,

I have a 80x150cm(about 2.5 x 5 feet) tent with 600w HPS in a cooltube at the moment. I have been growing autoflowers for about 3/4th of year now and did some pretty ghetto auto grows 10+ years ago, but when it comes to stuff like how much to veg before flowering, im pretty clueless, since autos flower when they want to flower and i have always adjusted myself to them wanting to flower, instead trying to make them flower when i want them to and trying to maximise yields with this.

I am going to get another tent 100x100cm(3x3) and put a 315w CMH in it. I also have a 150w(off the wall) LED i can use to supplement either tent.

I have triple g, amherst sour diesel, gorilla breath and freakshows germinating now, none of which are autos. The 3x3 tent ad CMH ill buy in few days after i can figure out 100% best route of action with it, in case i want to switch up something.

Im going to use autopots and scrog the plants, trying to maximise harvest. Except freakshows i wont scrog and i will flower them before others to get some pollen from them.

Vegging and blooming in both tents would give me more harvests naturally since flowering takes longer than vegging and i would likely end up vegging for quite a bit too long for this tent size?
Also if i were to only flower under HPS and veg under CMH, i would have to veg them a bit(like 1-2 weeks) on the scrog, so that they can grow on it properly, right? Or is there enough time for them to grow after 12/12 flip without any extra vegging on the scrog nets?

I have read quite a bit about CMH and there seems to be quite mixed opinions about it. From what i have gathered CMH naturally works better for veg and promotes tighter nodes due to more blues, while with HPS you get longer space between nodes. But because 315w simply does not have the raw power of 600w HPS, it doesent penetrate to lower branches as well and buds dont bulk up that well in general, but will make more trichomes and express the plants genes better, due to wider range of colors activating different metabolic processes inside the plant.

HOWEVER, if i were to use that 150w LED along with 315w CMH, that would get the raw power at least nearer to 600w HPS. And because of scrog, the light penetration doesent have to be super in the first place. And because the CMH runs colder than 600w HPS, you can put it closer.

But would that still be enough to win the 600w HPS in blooming? I could run the LED with the HPS, but im not sure if i can optimise cooling enough to even be able to run the LED next to the HPS. Im running a bit too hot temps even now, but i figure i can optimise it a bit, but the summer is coming and i doubt i can even run the HPS at max power in hot days, even with the optimisations i know i can do.. So led supplement to HPS would likely not be going on all the time, even if i put them in same tent. This is why im leaning on putting it along with CMH, but that wouldnt do much good except in flowering. For vegging only i bet 315w CMH would be plenty enough in 3x3 tent.

I was thinking of getting an parabolic umbrella type reflector for the CMH, at least if it were only for vegging. But 80cm umbrella in 100cm tent doesent leave much room for a LED. So i might have to go with different reflector type if ill flower under CMH. Umbrella also doesent seem to give same intensity as other types of reflectors, making it not so optimale for blooming. For vegging the not too intense even spread of light would be better afaik. But its no good for flowering, right? Especially since if i were to only veg in the tent, i wouldnt scrog it, making the light intensity more important, as there would be more variance in canopy level. Or would it still be intense enough for vegging with umbrella?

I was thinking of this umbrella:
https://www.secretjardin.com/product/daisy-reflector-gpz18-oinch-rounded1-unitecm80-inch-iec/

Or maybe this azerwing, if i were to veg+bloom in both, as i could fit the led better with it:
https://www.primaklima.com/en/lighting/reflectors/azerwing/vpro-cmh/

With digital lucilu dimmable CMH ballast and philips 930 bulb. I will have some autos flowering in vegging tent, so even if the 3x3 tent were just for vegging the photos, there would be some autos blooming as well. And i doubt there would be a major difference to vegging part between 930 and the veg CMH philips had.

Im leaning towards vegging and flowering in both, but trying to do it at different times as much as possible and keep the autos along with LED where vegging is going on. However this brings the problem of where to put the autos if both flower at the same time and are scrogged.. Putting a smaller scrog in 3x3 tent is not likely a good idea. And if i were to put a smaller scrog in 80x150cm tent, the autos would likely finish up before photos and this would leave me with wasted scrog space. So im not sure about this either..

So a lot of factors pushing me towards flowering in both, but it also comes with its downsides. So the answer to which one is more optimal becomes more complex and figuring it out is way over my understanding :/ Especially since HPS wont veg as well, so would the vegging under CMH instead of HPS make much difference in the yield, enough to counter the effect of having to harvest less often etc, but this would be countered by my autos having a proper space in vegging tent and being supported by the LED there.

I know this is a lot of rambling, but blah shit is complex with too many factors, half of which i likely forgot or havent even thought of yet


Maybe some of you gurus have some input on this? Any sort of rambling about any of this is welcome

 

[zachrockbadenof]

i have a 4x3.5ft tent - 2 grows ago i used '2' 315;s and thought it was not enough lite - last grow i added '4' shitty led's, but not impressed with bud size and penetration... i'm working on a better air circulation system for the fall and will use my 1000w hps- i think it makes for a better all around product... others will say led/cmh or whatever... i'm still in the hps camp...

 

[CannaDaBiz]

i have a 4x3.5ft tent - 2 grows ago i used '2' 315;s and thought it was not enough lite - last grow i added '4' shitty led's, but not impressed with bud size and penetration... i'm working on a better air circulation system for the fall and will use my 1000w hps- i think it makes for a better all around product... others will say led/cmh or whatever... i'm still in the hps camp...

Did you scrog or was the penetration so horrible that even that did not help? Also what distance did you use the 315's at? They need(and can due to lower heat) be closer to plants.

I have read many people with this problem you had and it seems that nearly every time the reason(if it comes out) was that they tried to grow like with HPS, when you should aim to get the plants to have wide and short canopy, like with scrog and this was the main reason for poor success. Or that they were trying to compare 315w CMH to like 600w HPS, which simply isnt fair, no matter how perfect the light spectrum is. I cant see 630w of CMH being equal to 1kw of HPS, even if it has a better spectrum overall.

HPS shoots out much more intense light, basically making smaller but more intense rays and this allows it to travel for longer distances without dimming as much on the way. Extremely strong COB does the same, but most LEDs are low power spread on wide area.

You can stack 315s side by side, but still it wont get the intensity of HPS, but it can get intense enough for them to carry for longer distances. But using 600w double ended CMH, you can get to same intensity levels as HPS afaik and get proper penetration that you now didnt get.

Also too little watts is too little watts, no matter if the spectrum is perfect. Raw power is raw power and HPS has that at the red end which bulks up the buds, even if the spectrum might not be optimal for the plant to express its full potential in all areas. Perfect spectrum might give you more trichomes, but without the raw power there is no bulkiness. I see a lot of people having best success with lots of HPS wattages and some CMH to supplement for the lack of some light spectrums. They claim you get the bulkiness from HPS and the trichome production of CMH. But i dunno. Theoretically it sounds plausible, but quite many things do, but have no significant real life effect, even tho people are eager to draw conclusions at what ever they want to prove..

 

[zachrockbadenof]

Did you scrog or was the penetration so horrible that even that did not help? Also what distance did you use the 315's at? They need(and can due to lower heat) be closer to plants..

i don't scrog as i grow in space that has very little room to move around the sides, and like 3'' over the top of the tent- its a small space- i veg em from clone for about 40days, and prune em to keep them short - at the end of flower , if need be, i'd still have 6+ inches to raise the lights - i keep the lights 18/20'' from the tops, with a fan blowing from one opening over the tops to dissipate the heat... another clip on fan blowing air around, and a window fan blowing in from the other opening for fresh air and it keeps the transformers cooler, tho cmh transformers run a lot cooler then 1000watter-
one problem i found is the hoods direct the light in a narrow range- and of course the closer the lights are the worse it is- raise the lights, u lose intensity . u r 'fuk'd either way - wish i had a nice 12x12ft room ...or bigger...to grow like a lot of guys on the site...

 

[CannaDaBiz]

i don't scrog as i grow in space that has very little room to move around the sides, and like 3'' over the top of the tent- its a small space- i veg em from clone for about 40days, and prune em to keep them short - at the end of flower , if need be, i'd still have 6+ inches to raise the lights - i keep the lights 18/20'' from the tops, with a fan blowing from one opening over the tops to dissipate the heat... another clip on fan blowing air around, and a window fan blowing in from the other opening for fresh air and it keeps the transformers cooler, tho cmh transformers run a lot cooler then 1000watter-
one problem i found is the hoods direct the light in a narrow range- and of course the closer the lights are the worse it is- raise the lights, u lose intensity . u r 'fuk'd either way - wish i had a nice 12x12ft room ...or bigger...to grow like a lot of guys on the site...

Yea from what i have understood, even tho the bulb on CMH doesent heat as much, it still radiates good amounts of IR, which heats up things it hits. Personally i battle with heat enough already that i would never ever even consider putting the ballast in the tent.

I have been reading about different hood types more lately and it seems that those hoods that shoot in very intense narrow rays are meant to be used a bit higher as they allow better penetration, compared to something like parabolic umbrella reflector, which spreads the light like crazy and can be used much closer.

Its like having a bright single cob vs tons of small leds covered over larger area.

Im still trying to figure this CMH thing, but that 20" for them seems like hella lot, or did you mean that just for the HPS? Because for HPS that sounds more like proper distance, and maybe like half that with CMH? But then again if you had those reflectors that shoot narrow intense beams i dunno.

I saw this 600w CMH conversion bulb that fits to regular HPS ballast and e40 plug. Im really tempted to try one instead of my HPS, but 150€ and cant find much any info about them or reviews.. Just few spanish grow shops listing them. If it truly would be like 600W double ended CMH, it would be a very nice 600w HPS alternative i think.

Im leaning more on getting the azerwing CMH reflector instead of umbrella and only vegging in that tent, i mean vegging photos, but flowering some autoflowers on the side, with the help of LEDs. But im not sure if scrogging properly requires me to veg under a net for long or if its possible to train the plants so that i dont need too much time vegging under the net, but still filling it evenly.

If i were to veg the photos only under CMH, that would leave me quite a while time to train the plants. But then again i cant veg way too big if i also have autos in the tent, and also they might not fit in the 80x150cm tent anymore.. Unless i have one or two plants vegging for that long. Originally i was thinking of cramming 4 photos in each if i were to flower in both.

Then again would i be sacrifising quantity if i were to use less of, but longer vegged plants? Also if i were to veg them longer, i would have to veg them long before moving them under the net, which could be another problem. Or? I have no idea baout this as i have grown autos mainly :/