Ebb and Flow or recirculating DWC, which is easier?

Wonderon · Jun 27, 2008

Looking to run atleast 6 plants in a 4x4 area. Using a 600w, which system is easier to run, maintain and would either of them be better suited for a beginner? I am trying to decide whether I want to try to design and assemble a recirculating DWC system or just buy a Econo Jet Ebb & Flow 4' x 4' table. I've done soil b4 but this is my first go with dro and I'd like to minimize the potential problems I might encounter so buying a unit seems like a good option and might remove a lot of the guess work for me but I wonder if it would really benefit me or cause me more problems. Also there are a few things about DWC that I don't understand but hopefully I can get some help with that if I go that route. Blaze69's magic trays are of interest to me as well, but again I have a few things I would need answered before I could build it, ie. like how do feed lines get run, what do you use to pump the feed lines? I hope I'm not :bashhead:

with my questions but i'm making some progress and need some advice.

SuperToker · Jun 27, 2008

First of all, you're going to need to build a smaller grow area, 3x3 is the most a 600 will cover. A 400 covers 2x2, and a 1000 will barely cover 4x4, so make yours about 9 square feet.

Go with an ebb and flow tray, some pots, and hydroton and/or coco as your medium.

I would also suggest pure blend pro nutrients, with liquid karma, and cal-mag plus. This way you will not need to buy a PH or TDS meter, as you would using chemical nutrient.

OgreSeeker · Jun 27, 2008

600 watts in 4x4 area = 37.5 wsf. That lighting is adequate for your space although a 1000w would be ideal (absolute minimum is 25wsf - 50 to 70wsf is optimal). The outter buds may be a bit dainty but if you've already built the space then you'll be fine.
Since you will be growing in such a small area and are new to hydro I would definitely go with E&F. My personal fav is DWC but you should get your feet wet with something a lil more forgiving and easy to setup and maintain.
I would start my seeds or cuttings in small 1" rockwool cubes, put them in small 4" to 10" pots (depending on plant size) and fill with hydroton. Simple, easy and almost foolproof.

Wonderon · Jun 27, 2008

Well, I could go 3x3 but I think it may be a bit crowded for 6 plants, just seems that way when I think about it in my mind but maybe not. I have pretty decent tap water so I was going to use dechlorinated tap water. Would that blend really eliminate the need for the meters? I was considering using gh nutes and using the lucas formula but with that I needed to buy a $130 multi meter so by all means willing to explore options.

I'm running a 600w with super sun 2 so I was hoping I could get the extra 1ft but like I said 3x3 may be enough, just tighter then I wanted.

OgreSeeker · Jun 27, 2008

Man I know alot of people say "go ahead" when it comes to growing hydro w/ no meter but I say NO WAYYYY! That meter will pay for itself with your first harvest!

Murphy · Jun 27, 2008

Dude, you don't want to try it without a meter. You have to balance PH and you have to keep track of ppms. You can get 2 seperate meters CHEAP, it's the combo's that cost ya.

If your'e looking for simple, ebb and flow. DWC is great but, you have to do more work to set that up vs. ebb and flow and it will cost more. If you chose to go DWC, hands down, the most important thing is DO (disolve oxygen), get a good air pump, not some $30 fish pump. Root Rot is your biggest concern.

If it's your first hydro grow, keep your neuts simple. Once you get into mixing and matching, less people can help you if there is a problem. Keep it simple man, it works just as well as the complicated systems, most of the time it works better.

Wonderon · Jun 28, 2008

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I had intended to get a hanna meter, the multis seem to get mixed reviews but I see a lot of photos on this site with people using them so I might try it. Even with individual units on ebay I can't seem tom get it much cheaper but I will keep searching before I buy.

DWC sounds really simple to me until i think of using multiple buckets and how hard it may be to connect the buckets and get the pressure right amongst other things, also I can't quite figure out how a feed line gets plumbed in.

Like I said I am just learning so I would like to have the system be a sure thing that way if it goes bad then I know it was my fault and not the systems error, you know what I mean. The ebb and flows are so nice and neat and just seems like good start for a new grower. I just hope they aren't cheaply manufactured and that I can get good results using one, maybe as good as DWC. Then hopefully I can fit enough plants on a 3x3 table cause I'd hate to only be running 2-4 plants as that would keep me with a short supply.

SacredBreh · Jun 28, 2008

Wonderon.... going to wade into the pool on this one....

Wonderon.... going to wade into the pool on this one....

DWC--means several things, can be seperate buckets with feeder lines, it can be one tub with a reservoir, or it can be just a tub. (or many other various set ups)

I use the last. GH is perfect nutes to start with..... half the people on this site started with them or still use them.

Meter--absolute must. I guess some get lucky or are just way more brilliant than myself. I see the Craft you are seeking to endeavor in much like medicine ....... both art and science. My plants now talk to me way before the numbers change but in the beginning that is not so.

One large tub with bubblers is the cheapest and pretty much the most basic it can get. Murphy is right, the secrete to any method is proper temps, nutes, love and tender care but without a hell of alot of bubbles or disolved O2, your screwed from the beginning.

These are just my experiences over the years and of course wouldn't fit everyone but I think most would generally agree.

Peace

Wonderon · Jun 28, 2008

Do both types of setups offer the same potential yields if I used the same strain? I know if I built my own system it would be built a little more higher powered then a store bought system, ie pump and feed lines would be bigger but it would also bring up the cost to possibly the same or higher then a store bought system. But would it actually outperform an ebb and flow table?

Wonderon · Jun 28, 2008

I think I will give the ebb and flow a go. Figure if I decide I want to go dwc later I can always build it then and use the ebb and flow for clones. How many plants should I go for on a 3x3 table? So do I start the seeds in 1" rockwool then plant the rockwool in hydroton on the table or in net pots with hydroton in them and leave the table open?

Anyone know which system is better:
Sunstream One-Tray Econo-System
or
Econo Jet Ebb & Flow

Murphy · Jun 28, 2008

Ebb and flow really is simple and for your first hydro run, it's more foregiving then DWC. Both are great systems, I started with DWC buckets. I just got back from Lowes with set up supplies for my upcoming "last run".

(2) Lowes Super Tubs 2 X 3 feet each
(2) 27 gallon Heavy duty totes (so I can run the tables independantly for differnt stages of flower)
1"X4" to set up the table

1000 watt HPS on it's way with the pumps, neuts and hydrotron, should have this week.

15 Grape Krush seeds
10 Ata Tundra
25 AK47 Clones

Keep it simple, for best results. My total room with the 1000 watt light will cost less then $800 but I have a 6" inline fan and a 400 watt cabinet up and running. You can get one of those systems but, don't leave out the option of making your own table. 3/4" plywood and 2X6 to make the sides, drill the flood and drain holes and throw a pond liner over it. Check out Yamaha fan1's grow, that's what he does and fills it the table with hydrotron, no net pot, just pop 'em in. If your growing larger then SOG, just put a screen over it. Just a few ideas for you. Oh, and no need for an airstone and air pump.

LV_Kid · Jun 29, 2008

With the amount of plants you are going to run I would enclose the room to 3x3 and just run DWC. Ebb and flow is nice but your gonna be running way more plant life than that. With DWC you can just do more of a tree growth and pull same number or better with less plants. Although you will run a bigger veg cycle. Both are about the same though in cost and maintenance. Personally I would go DWC, good luck with what you choose.

Rainman · Jun 29, 2008

Wonder - If I may ask what are your reasons for goin hydro? I say it may be easier and more effective to stay with the dirt grow in your space until you have absolutely decided which system to run and get all the equipment up front. This way you can get a few more grows in your comfortable setup while planning your move to hydro. I only caution you because in my jump from dirt i was really impatient and just bought alot of crap i didnt need because of poor planning on my part. If I had a real solid game plan I woulda saved hundreds of $$ Hope this helps.

CaptainTrips · Jun 29, 2008

LV_Kid said:
With the amount of plants you are going to run I would enclose the room to 3x3 and just run DWC. Ebb and flow is nice but your gonna be running way more plant life than that. With DWC you can just do more of a tree growth and pull same number or better with less plants. Although you will run a bigger veg cycle. Both are about the same though in cost and maintenance. Personally I would go DWC, good luck with what you choose.

You can do flood and drain buckets.... I have a 3 bucket e&f system... It could easily be converted to DWC. Just remove the grow medium and never shut off the pump... (and add lids to the buckets)

Wonderon · Jun 29, 2008

The thing with DWC is that I would want to hook up feed lines and I don't get how they get plumbed in. Then the res temps scare me a bit, if I encounter that problem then it will cost another $400 for a chiller. I will be doing this in a basement so not sure if temps will be a problem but I figured I could avoid that problem all together with ebb and flow. The reason for skipping on the dirt is that I didn't like it much when I did it and always wanted to give hydro a go. I am trying to keep it basic while making sure I get what I need to be successful.

If I was to go recirculating DWC would I need two pumps, one in and one out of the res? Do the pumps run 24/7. Do I need a float valve and how does it work? Basically I am at a loss when it comes to building one myself and it seems easier to just buy a prebuilt ebb and flow table and go, might be around the same price.

Looked through blaze69's magic trays thread as well as the recirc dwc thread and while both are nice systems that I would love to try, both leave me hanging with questions so I'm not so sure which way I want to go. Damn its so hard to get a start with dro, seems to be way too much info on it so its got me running all over the place looking for info on how to best start.

If I am going to be using a 3' 11"x3'x11" space which system would give me the most workable space? Seems like a table would allow me more space as plants could be closer on the table.

Rainman · Jun 29, 2008

Wonder - it is alot of info but if you can figure out how to post on these boards, I am confident you can figure it out. Just ask yourself the most basic questions - Why go hydro? How much will I be pulling down avg.? Is this for me or sales, both? Security (seems like you got that covered!) Electric costs? Build my own or pre-built? Just keep readn some of the serious hydro guys threads and they can teach you what you need to know. Get some ?s answered. Then read some more. After that read a little bit more. Keep growin no matter what you do and it will come to you. Good luck.

Wonderon · Jun 29, 2008

I'm hoping it comes to me LOL. I am confident that I could build one just not sure which way to direct my efforts.

I had considered just running a 2, 10gal tote system DWC style. I could link the totes together with two 3/4" pvc tubes and run a pump to circulate the water between the 2. Hopefully between the pump and a decent air pump I can get some decent growth. Also this would only work if the water temps were low enough otherwise I waste my time and will need to get a chiller or add frozen water bottles to control temps

LOL. I'm also afraid that if I don't hook up a float valve to refill water loss then the plants might loose enough to dry out in only a few days time. Then with DWC it seems as if a feed line would be completely needed as how else would the upper section of the roots get wet? All these what ifs with DWC make me nervous, how about you?

So I am at the point of deciding which way to go:

10G Totes with 2 plants each,
3.2Gal

,
5Gal

,

or

Then there waterfarms, they seem pretty simple and around the same price. I know i couldn't run all 8 but possible 6 buckets. They have a res and seem plug an go so maybe an option.

I just want something I can learn on but I def want to be able to get some good results quality wise and nice yields.

I will be running a 600W Super Sun 2, I am hoping to get atleast 300G per grow however 1g per watt would be awesome. Once I get clones it would be nice to be able to finish a crop every 3 months or so. It will be for my personal stash and for sharing with close ones, no sales here. I truly love some good hydro, never have I had dirt grown that compared. I have some good strains ready to pop all I need to do get this up and going...

DEDHEDFRED · Jun 29, 2008

Hey Wonder.........A DIY ebb and flow table will be your best bet for the move into hydro grows with the small area you have....Make sure you have access to all 4 sides of the grow area......I don`t know your budget but the ebb and flow table you`ve got pictured is $500........Got a bro of mine at another place that runs 8 plants in a 4x4 e and f table under 1000 watts that does real well...........He uses 2 gal. "smartpots" w/ coco chunks and perlite ..........His last run went over 2 lbs. and I think he vegged rooted clones couple weeks then flipped em..........There`s no potential for root rot and very minimal maintenance in the ebb and flow setups.............They practically run themselves........Hook a r/o filter up to a float valve mounted in your tank and it WILL run itself except for rez and nute maintenance.......Take care......DHF............ :joint:

...........

Wonderon · Jun 29, 2008

Well heres the thing, that system is the Econo Jet Ebb & Flow 3' x 3' by BOTANICARE. It goes for $299.95, and comes with everything needed. The systems catch phrase is "The Econo Jet line was developed to assist growers obtain a high quality hydrogarden, but priced such that it is comparable with do-it-yourself components."

So even if I break it down I would only be able to get a little bit cheaper by building it and it would def not look as neat and may not function as well. Hmmmm almost feels like I'm convicing myself lol. I had not planned on only using 3x3 of space but it seems I should be able to keep it well hidden and still achieve a good crop.

The only problem I see is that I may not be able to fit enough on just the 3x3, but the only way to know is to give it a try.

"They practically run themselves........Hook a r/o filter up to a float valve mounted in your tank and it WILL run itself except for rez and nute maintenance"

You make this sound easy lol, not sure if I can get that technical I had planned to give my tap water a try. Whats the bid deal with RO water, doesn't anyone have decent local water?

SuperToker · Jun 29, 2008

The 3x3 space will let the light better cover your canopy so you will have a flawless dense canopy of ganja. You can do 4x4 but the 600w will not cover the outer edges well, and they will not grow as well on the sides.

I would suggest setting up a run to waste drip system on a cheap tray(s) with your plants in coco or hydroton to get the best growth rate. Using DWC is a bit slower, and has many fluctuations that can completely wipe out a crop if your not on top of it. I would not suggest DWC with chemical nutes such as GH for your first run with hydro. Pure blend pro is a bit easier to use since you won't have to worry about the PH or TDS, just use the correct amount for the growth stage your in.

Also if your still planning on using GH nutes with the lucas formula that will work, but make sure you check your PH and TDS regularly. You will need the meters which will run about $150 each for waterproof meters. Don't skimp and get the cheap $80 non waterproof meters, you'll drop them in your tank once by accident and they'll never work again.

Ebb and Flow or recirculating DWC, which is easier?

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