S1 seed instead of a mother?

Spaventa · May 18, 2017

Im going through a few strains searching for keepers.
I was thinking about how many I want to keep and wrestled with wanting more than is practical.

Then I had an idea. I thought how about I self a plant? to keep S1 seed of it for future grows?
I could silver a clone and make a hundred S1 seed of any plants I like, right?

Advantages over keeping a mother plant are numerous - a big one is ITS LEGAL to keep seeds (here anyway)

So, can I get some confirmation that...

A. MOST (say 90%) of plants will reverse and be fertile

If not, how bad is it?

B. An S1 seed will give rise to an identical plant to the original used as both parents.

I can see me keeping a hundred of every plant I like that will self.
If I ever see germ rates fall, I can self it afresh.

Any help appreciated :tiphat:

GoatCheese · May 18, 2017

Quite likely S1 seeds won't grow plants that are identical to the mother because of the recessive traits of the mother
..and it had also something to do with the "genes splitting" or something like that. Maybe others can explain htis the right way cause i can't fully remember how it went.

UK Cheese s1 seeds are a good examples of this. If you'll grow GHS Exodus Cheese you will see that good majority of the plants aren't very close to the UK Cheese clone.

So if you find a nice keeper just make sure you will not loose the clone. Sure S1 seeds are a good back up cause you can find something similar, but perhaps not the same

soundman · May 18, 2017

I have only selfed a handful of times. I got 100% success rate.

S1's are not like clones at all. I have yet to see a S1 match exactly like parent. Pretty close sometimes and pretty different too. I have popped S1's and ended up with such different phenos that you would think they are different strains all together.

Still better than losing the genetics.

Spaventa · May 18, 2017

Thanks guys. It was a nice dream for a while lol

noodles05 · May 19, 2017

How does one self a plant, this is something i have heard but am totally un familiar with.

YetiOG · May 19, 2017

Spaventa said:
Im going through a few strains searching for keepers.
I was thinking about how many I want to keep and wrestled with wanting more than is practical.

Then I had an idea. I thought how about I self a plant? to keep S1 seed of it for future grows?
I could silver a clone and make a hundred S1 seed of any plants I like, right?

Advantages over keeping a mother plant are numerous - a big one is ITS LEGAL to keep seeds (here anyway)

So, can I get some confirmation that...

A. MOST (say 90%) of plants will reverse and be fertile

If not, how bad is it?

B. An S1 seed will give rise to an identical plant to the original used as both parents.

I can see me keeping a hundred of every plant I like that will self.
If I ever see germ rates fall, I can self it afresh.

Any help appreciated

Im growing some irene s1s. They are not like growing clones all are different. Id reccommend keepimg cuts you are attached too, but making s1 is totally valuble as a backup because if you loose the cut you can still have something that reminds of the favored cut. Or if you want to spread them around.

There are plants that are hard or impossibke to reverse. Sour d can be hard ro reverse and things like loompas headband, ogkb's cookie, and the underdog are all cuts that are really hard to reverse to the point they pretty much dont really produce any seeds (or very little to the point its not worth it) so its really cut depemdant...

As far as that b point though yeah the s1 wont give rise to identical plants in pretty much anything... look at lots of s1 grows... see my pics below...

Anyway id recommend making s1 if possible but keeping cuts. You could give/sell seeds would be a extra little bonus

Spaventa · May 19, 2017

noodles05 said:
How does one self a plant, this is something i have heard but am totally un familiar with.

You reverse a clone to make pollen. People used giberilic acid to stress the plant but nowadays you use colloidal silver - it bonds to copper molecules in the plant making it switch without stress. I have some anyway as it has a million uses.

yeti I will have a look at some s1 grows. Food for thought.. thanks

Natural high · May 19, 2017

Spaventa said:
So, can I get some confirmation that...

A. MOST (say 90%) of plants will reverse and be fertile

If not, how bad is it?

B. An S1 seed will give rise to an identical plant to the original used as both parents.

A. Some plants are very hard to reverse and get viable pollen. They typically all make male flowers but some refuse to mature the pollen to the point of shedding.

B. A S1 plant is never identical to the parent. Why?

Cannabis has around 20,000 to 30,000 separate genes and each one exists as a pair of two (called alleles), which may or may not be the same (for example the same > AA, or different > AB). During sexual reproduction (meiosis), only one copy of each pair is carried over to the offspring.

If the two alleles of a gene pair are the same (AA) then this is called Homozygous, and this particular trait will always carry over to the S1 generation.

If the two alleles of a gene are different (AB) then this is called Heterozygous. In this case, half the S1 offspring will get the same genes as the parent (AB), a quarter will get two identical versions of one type (AA), and the other quarter will get two identical versions of the other type (BB).

As there are 1,000's of genes which need to be carried over to the offspring, it is easy to see that it is impossible for Si offspring to be identical to the parent. Some might be similar but not the same, and some might be quite different.

.

noodles05 · May 19, 2017

Spaventa said:
You reverse a clone to make pollen. People used giberilic acid to stress the plant but nowadays you use colloidal silver - it bonds to copper molecules in the plant making it switch without stress. I have some anyway as it has a million uses.

yeti I will have a look at some s1 grows. Food for thought.. thanks

Cheers mate, i just found a thread on making STS,
from silver nitrate & sodium thiosulpate ( A+B ) solution.
I'm keen to try it out.

YetiOG · May 19, 2017

Spaventa said:
You reverse a clone to make pollen. People used giberilic acid to stress the plant but nowadays you use colloidal silver - it bonds to copper molecules in the plant making it switch without stress. I have some anyway as it has a million uses.

yeti I will have a look at some s1 grows. Food for thought.. thanks

My grow is in cannaventure section if you want to scope it you will see the plants are clearly all different in veg.

I have already decided ill be keeping the most og dom its just a gorgeous plant and smells like heaven ogk i love it.

No garentees though any will ne just like irene but im sure they will be good.

A few plants like the white and affie do make pretty good s1s but most who claim s1s are total replicas probably base it of those few rare mentioned examples... most s1 are not like that at all...

neongreen · May 20, 2017

Natural high said:
A. Some plants are very hard to reverse and get viable pollen. They typically all make male flowers but some refuse to mature the pollen to the point of shedding.

B. A S1 plant is never identical to the parent. Why?

Cannabis has around 20,000 to 30,000 separate genes and each one exists as a pair of two, which may or may not be the same. During sexual reproduction (meiosis), only one copy of each pair is carried over to the offspring.

If the two copies of a gene pair are the same then this is called Homozygous, and this particular trait will always carry over to the S1 generation.

If the two copies of a gene are different then this is called Heterozygous. In this case, half the S1 offspring will get the same genes as the parent (for this gene), a quarter will get two identical versions of one type, and the other quarter will get two identical versions of the other type.

As there are 1,000's of genes which need to be carried over to the offspring, it is easy to see that it is impossible for Si offspring to be identical to the parent. Some might be similar but not the same, and some might be quite different.

That's a pretty good answer, but I still don't think anyone has mentioned a little fact that is extremely pertinent to this thread, which is that how similar/uniform the S1 generation is depends largely on how homozygos the parent was.

So if you make an S1 from a strain that has been bred to something like F10, and the important traits have been well "locked down" over the generations, then you are going to see much more uniformity in the S1 generation than you would if you made S1s from an F1 hybrid cross between two relatively unrelated strains.

The disadvantage is that by this time (F10), what you'd have would likely be lacking vigor due to all the inbreeding, so I think the best S1 seeds probably come from somewhere in between those extremes, but don't expect them to be 100% uniform, and keep in mind that "selfing is the most severe form of inbreeding"! Ever tried making a copy, of a copy, of a copy, etc... of an old analog tape? The end result is a fail!

Even so, making S1s is probably never a bad thing to do... you never know unless you try :biggrin:

YetiOG · May 20, 2017

neongreen said:
That's a pretty good answer, but I still don't think anyone has mentioned a little fact that is extremely pertinent to this thread, which is that how similar/uniform the S1 generation is depends largely on how homozygos the parent was.

So if you make an S1 from a strain that has been bred to something like F10, and the important traits have been well "locked down" over the generations, then you are going to see much more uniformity in the S1 generation than you would if you made S1s from an F1 hybrid cross between two relatively unrelated strains.

The disadvantage is that by this time (F10), what you'd have would likely be lacking vigor due to all the inbreeding, so I think the best S1 seeds probably come from somewhere in between those extremes, but don't expect them to be 100% uniform, and keep in mind that "selfing is the most severe form of inbreeding"! Ever tried making a copy, of a copy, of a copy, etc... of an old analog tape? The end result is a fail!

Even so, making S1s is probably never a bad thing to do... you never know unless you try

I didnt really go into it but touched on it with the examples i gave that do s1 well. I just didnt feel it was super important because most things just dont s1 that well but i certainly appreciate you taking the time (and saving me lots) by posting as you did

igrowone · May 20, 2017

S1's are a route to finding interesting genetics
i've been playing with some S1's that popped out from a hybrid for years
every spin of the seed gives me something different, some were pretty good
the very 1st gave me a plant with a lot of similarities to the parent
made it seem easy peasy, but the next 15 much further away from the original

Spaventa · May 20, 2017

neongreen said:
That's a pretty good answer, but I still don't think anyone has mentioned a little fact that is extremely pertinent to this thread, which is that how similar/uniform the S1 generation is depends largely on how homozygos the parent was.

So if you make an S1 from a strain that has been bred to something like F10, and the important traits have been well "locked down" over the generations, then you are going to see much more uniformity in the S1 generation than you would if you made S1s from an F1 hybrid cross between two relatively unrelated strains.

The disadvantage is that by this time (F10), what you'd have would likely be lacking vigor due to all the inbreeding, so I think the best S1 seeds probably come from somewhere in between those extremes, but don't expect them to be 100% uniform, and keep in mind that "selfing is the most severe form of inbreeding"! Ever tried making a copy, of a copy, of a copy, etc... of an old analog tape? The end result is a fail!

Even so, making S1s is probably never a bad thing to do... you never know unless you try

great info thanks for posting :tiphat:

VerdantGreen · May 20, 2017

a simplified way of looking at S1s is to to think of them as an F2 generation where both the parents are the same plant.

so, as mentioned above, the uniformity and resemblance to the parent depends entirely on how true-breeding the parent is.

eg, S1 of something like super silver haze which is a hybrid could produce plants that closely resemble any of the original parents of the ssh hybrid.

whereas a S1 of an inbred line such as Skunk is much more likely to closely resemble the parent.

VG

Spaventa · May 20, 2017

VerdantGreen said:
a simplified way of looking at S1s is to to think of them as an F2 generation where both the parents are the same plant.

so, as mentioned above, the uniformity and resemblance to the parent depends entirely on how true-breeding the parent is.

eg, S1 of something like super silver haze which is a hybrid could produce plants that closely resemble any of the original parents of the ssh hybrid.

whereas a S1 of an inbred line such as Skunk is much more likely to closely resemble the parent.

VG

Great explanation, thanks :tiphat:

igrowone · May 21, 2017

i believe i recall a post from the sam the skunkman on Sx seeds(my notation)
or it may have been a repost attributed to him
as you go down the chain of selfing, you loose vigor
i think it was a gen 6 the post was talking about, mentioned how sensitive the plants were
very tender and vulnerable, so eventually selfing starts to bring in some undesirable traits
or so i recall

VerdantGreen · May 21, 2017

yes, selfing, or any inbreeding as in F2-F3 etc, will reduce vigor.

crazyfool* · May 22, 2017

I personally think it would be more interesting to make f2, or eaven other f1 crossing diferent strains, find a cool male and make thousands of seeds with your best females, this way, you will have vigorous f1 plants to work with, and if you use plants of your choice, its likely many of the fenos will resemble the plants you used to work with.....
and you won't narrow out the genetic pool, but the opposite, you will be exploring a whole new genetic pool, and maybe finding something eaven better then the original mother plants you began with...... just make sure to find a stud that is decent for breeding.

Spaventa · May 22, 2017

crazyfool* said:
I personally think it would be more interesting to make f2, or eaven other f1 crossing diferent strains, find a cool male and make thousands of seeds with your best females, this way, you will have vigorous f1 plants to work with, and if you use plants of your choice, its likely many of the fenos will resemble the plants you used to work with.....
and you won't narrow out the genetic pool, but the opposite, you will be exploring a whole new genetic pool, and maybe finding something eaven better then the original mother plants you began with...... just make sure to find a stud that is decent for breeding.

This is something else altogether but it does interest me. The only regular strain among the selection I've recently bought is Western Winds. I will probably get a couple of males but no idea if they might be suitable for breeding.

S1 seed instead of a mother?

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