Confused.... F1, IX, something else.........?

Rubber Chicken · Sep 10, 2016

Hello all,

I was wondering about something.....

If you have 2 sister plants, from feminized seeds, and one of the sisters showed a very small amount of male flowers on the bottom of the plant, what would the seeds created be?

I know some will say hermaphrodite rubbish, but i'm meaning the technical term.

If the one with the male flowers pollinate itself i think the seeds inside would be S1 but what if you pollinate the sister?

Is it F1, IX or something else?

Thanks for any help.

Rubber Chicken · Sep 10, 2016

I don't really agree with that.

Is any plant that can grow a male flower or 2 from stress called a Hermaphrodite?

What if the seeds that are grown show no male parts? They should have no label?

rykus · Sep 10, 2016

I'd call it S1xS2 herm.....and probably never start them...

Re thought about it and the seeds from the plant that hermied would be S2 and the seeds from the non here sis would be fem. F2....

And yeah your right , I still have sprouted plenty of good females from this type of breeding, I just wouldn't pass them around because to many people would induce the very minor stress that could cause issue...

Rubber Chicken · Sep 10, 2016

Meh.

I think the male flowers are from heat stress, so i have no problem growing some, if it was an actual plant with bananas and pistils everywhere, that would be different.

All the Gorilla Glue and Chem/ Diesel etc. have sensitive genetics (or came from sensitive genetics) from what i read.

Anyway, thanks for the replies.

Koondense · Sep 10, 2016

I think it may be F2.
If the cross would be crossed back to the hermi mom, then it's backcrossing.
But I only did F1s so can't tell for sure.

FireIn.TheSky · Sep 10, 2016

I feel that hermaphrodite is an over used term, to me a true herm is a plant that shows 50/50 sex at flip or has an abundance of male flowers, not necessarily a few late flowering nanners.

A full herm is trash, I dont really see much wrong with a few late flowering nanners that may be stress related.

As for the sisters, to me it sounds like it would be a feminized F2. It's not an F1, not and IX and not an S1.

mule420 · Sep 10, 2016

Rubber Chicken said:
I don't really agree with that.

Is any plant that can grow a male flower or 2 from stress called a Hermaphrodite?

What if the seeds that are grown show no male parts? They should have no label?

The term is intersex plants not hermaphroditism, Sam s talks about true breeding female plants and how no matter hard you try to reverse them they stay female. Look in the breeding lab ^ sort the threads by stars.

Rubber Chicken · Sep 11, 2016

I understand that you can get 'True Females' that won't grow male flowers even under severe stress, and that they might be the ones to use if you were doing a serious breeding project, but i have also read that slight inersex traits IS the norm in wild landrace Cannabis (if it's true idk).

I am just asking the question what the correct labelling would be if the slightly intersex female i use is still being considered a female, which i think in general most people do.

I'm not trying to search for 'True Breeding Females' for a special breeding project.

Just some home made feminized seeds to play with, which i do all the time with fine results.

Any more posts are welcome. Thanks again.

dank.frank · Sep 11, 2016

okay...sister plant from the same feminized seed line...correct?

One of the plants hermied and pollinated it's sibling.

Those seeds are S2 - in order for it to be an F2, you have to be working with m/f pairs to begin with. In normal instances, an Ix is going to be more along the lines of a(f1) x a(f3), or a(s1) x a(s2)

A feminized / selfed Bx1 to a specific mother plant, it would have to be a x a(s1 or s2 or s3, etc)

I've used () to denote a filial generation in these examples, not to denote a hybrid combination such as a x (b x c) - don't want you getting confused thinking f1 or f3 are specific plant names - it merely represents any selection from that filial generation.

dank.Frank

Betterhaff · Sep 12, 2016

The standards for nomenclature with cannabis breeding (or any breeding to a degree) are not really standardized, that’s part of the problem. “Sx” designation has been applied to “selfed” plants, plants pollinating themselves either via chemically induced sex reversal or intersex pollination. The “Sx” term with cannabis probably arose with the advent of feminized seed, it’s a designation for seeds not coming from a M/F mating.

Technically a more proper designation would be “Fx”, meaning a filial generation, in this case F2 if the plant(s) producing the seed were F1. Even though the plant pollinated itself (or a sib) it would still produce the next filial generation. The same thing applies with backcrossing. The “Bx” term is used, probably as a tracking designation but it’s really an “Fx”. I use “Bx” as a track but the way I look at it, since it’s the same line, it’s really the next filial generation (of that breeding).

It can get complicated and confusing and I always use as much info for the record. For sake of example, a backcross of an F1 sib to a P1 parent would be “BX1” but technically it’s an “F2”. So would 2 sibling F1’s crossed together. Backrossing an F2 back to an original P1 may be designated as “BX1” but technically would be an “F3”. Hope that made sense.

Chimera · Sep 12, 2016

Sorry guys those examples above are not quite right.

The seeds produced would be F2s if the parents were siblings, chosen and mated from an F1 population.

The 'S' designation should really be reserved for populations derived through self-fertilization. It denotes that only two alleles from the initial selection were ever admitted into the breeding population. This makes following traits and genes much easier because you rule out the effect of more than two alleles at any given locus, right off the bat. This is the vast benefit (and detriment!) of selfing.

Parental 1 x Parental 2
P1 x P2 (You don't gave two P1's!!!! This is anther stoner myth)

Yields F1 population

-> Grow & Select Individual

If you fertilize the individual with its own pollen, you have created an S1 population. Every plant in that population is an "S1".

-> Grow S1s and select individual.

If you fertilize the individual with its own pollen, you have created an S2 population. Every plant in that population is an "S2".

etc.

Hope that helps,
-Chimera

Betterhaff · Sep 12, 2016

Chimera;7624169/ said:
If you fertilize the individual with its own pollen, you have created an S1 population. Every plant in that population is an "S1".

-> Grow S1s and select individual.

If you fertilize the individual with its own pollen, you have created an S2 population. Every plant in that population is an "S2".

etc.

Hope that helps,
-Chimera

Sorry about the “P’s”, should have left it as an original P parent. What would you call the results of an S1 that pollinates a sister, not itself…an S2? This is where it gets confusing.

Any F1’s that are combined the resultant will be F2, but how does this apply with cross fertilizing in S populations, such as a sibling cross? You are saying S should be reserved for a plant that pollinates itself. Or does it apply to the S population too?

I think this is getting back to the op’s question.

Hope you're feeling better.

dank.frank · Sep 12, 2016

Rubber Chicken said:
Hello all,

I was wondering about something.....

If you have 2 sister plants, from feminized seeds, and one of the sisters showed a very small amount of male flowers on the bottom of the plant, what would the seeds created be?

I know some will say hermaphrodite rubbish, but i'm meaning the technical term.

If the one with the male flowers pollinate itself i think the seeds inside would be S1 but what if you pollinate the sister?

Is it F1, IX or something else?

Thanks for any help.

dank.frank said:
Those seeds are S2 - in order for it to be an F2, you have to be working with m/f pairs to begin with. In normal instances, an Ix is going to be more along the lines of a(f1) x a(f3), or a(s1) x a(s2)

Correct or incorrect, I think I would have labeled the resulting seeds as follows, as this is the scenario we've been presented with, two plants:

S1 pheno A (pollen donor/hermi), S1 pheno B

The resulting seeds:

1. S1-A x S1-A = S2
2. S1-A x S1-B = S1 Ix1

dank.Frank

englishrick · Sep 12, 2016

Chim and betterhaff got in before me. Nice work guys. Exactly what I would have said

I think the rise of the S designation in reference to cannabis became popular after the inheritance of chemical phenotype paper came about and everyone started to get to grips with the technical biology terms associated with fem breeding

Oh,,,an don't you think we should be using the term BC and not BX

Rubber Chicken · Sep 13, 2016

Thank you for the help

I think Chimera is right.

I said the 2 plants were from feminized seeds, they are sisters, but they are not S1.

Thanks again.

englishrick · Sep 13, 2016

After years of reading chims posts,,, he's probably the best source of info on the Web about this stuff...

Respect!

Koondense · Sep 13, 2016

Of course he is, glad do see he came by and explained briefly the process.
I was pretty close though

englishrick · Sep 13, 2016

S1 (A) x S1 (A) = S2

S1 (A) x S1(B) = F1

I have seen the R designation before but I don't think its recognised in sciences papers an such,,,,Eg.... S1 (A) x S1 (B) = R1

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Confused.... F1, IX, something else.........?

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