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Polyploidy revisited

pinkus

Well-known member
Veteran
For probably the 100th time: Is whorled phyllotaxy an indication of polyploidy? According to RCClark's 1981 book, NO! so that's what I've been going by. But the controversy rages at another site :dunno: So, anybody want to shed some new light on this?

I just don't believe this statement rings true. "
All trifoliate's are polypoloids. The only way to get that extra node is through the extra chromosome." thank's for your time, whether I'm wrong or right.
 

Only Ornamental

Spiritually inspired agnostic mad scientist
Veteran
Phyllotaxis has nothing to do with ploidy.
There is however some correlation between grain rows on wheat and polyploidy, maybe that or simply the only 'tri-' word known to some led to the use of triploid for 3-leaved whorled cannabis plants.
To get a triploid plant, one has to cross for example a tetraploid with a diploid; do tetraploid plants have a whorled 4 leaf pattern? No :D .

The whorled phenomenon is just a spontaneously occurring thing rather frequently seen in cannabis but also many other plants (have seen it several times on tomatoes and other garden plants although these specimens usually died early or stayed behind in growth and I culled them).
Seems as if it could be bred/selected although I don't know what exactly causes this phenotype.

P.S. How many extra chromosomes would Aloe polyphylla have to possess if ploidy would translate to phyllotaxis? And do people with trisomy 21 (Down sydrome) have 3 arms and legs?
 

pinkus

Well-known member
Veteran
Thanks. That all reinforces what I already thought. I posted the first paragraph from RCClark's MJ botany. The "expert" claimed that new science shows different.
 

Only Ornamental

Spiritually inspired agnostic mad scientist
Veteran
Ask people who actually treated cannabis with colchicine and did some breeding with the offspring. They will tell you that the treated plants (mainly tetraploid) and their offspring (different ploidy possible) look pretty much the same than normal cannabis plants ;) .
If you don't know whom to ask: Sam_Skunkman would be one. BTW, triploidy usually doesn't appear spontaneously and certainly not as often as whorled cannabis plants.
 

pinkus

Well-known member
Veteran
Ask people who actually treated cannabis with colchicine and did some breeding with the offspring. They will tell you that the treated plants (mainly tetraploid) and their offspring (different ploidy possible) look pretty much the same than normal cannabis plants ;) .
If you don't know whom to ask: Sam_Skunkman would be one. BTW, triploidy usually doesn't appear spontaneously and certainly not as often as whorled cannabis plants.

lol Thanks OO :huggg: I posted here with Sam in mind.

I just didn't want to keep telling the other person the same thing over and over and have it turn out I was the one spreading misinformation... well another one, there are many.
 

Granger2

Active member
Veteran
I don't know if this has anything to do with the thread subject. In the late 70's, a friend of mine in the Bay Area mailed a seed to me from some "really good indica." Looked like indica. I crossed it with a seed from some exceptional Columbian. I got 2 viable seed. Germinated both. One was normal, the other was a tricot. Three cotyledons. I grew them both out. The normal one in a greenhouse, the other outdoors where we couldn't quite get enough water to them. Both matured and were harvested. Not exactly anything close to a side by side. The dicot gave a fabulous yield of massive buds. Great smoke, high, taste.

The tricot was about a 3 ft dome. The smoke was even better. Didn't know much at that time, or I would have taken cuttings. Oh well. I'd bet I'd still be growing one or both to this day if I had. Old friends still say it was the best they've ever smoked.

So was the tricot just a mutant, or was it a polyploid? Anyone have opinions? Thanks. -granger
 

jayjayfrank

Member
Veteran
since we are on the subject

has anybody come across a 'real double haploid'?

i think i might actually have one, but not sure ....
 

Only Ornamental

Spiritually inspired agnostic mad scientist
Veteran
The tricot was about a 3 ft dome. The smoke was even better. Didn't know much at that time, or I would have taken cuttings. Oh well. I'd bet I'd still be growing one or both to this day if I had. Old friends still say it was the best they've ever smoked.

So was the tricot just a mutant, or was it a polyploid? Anyone have opinions? Thanks. -granger

Was your 'tricot' also green?
Then your mother plant must have been hit by some stray pollen from a Martian Mbunga-Mbunga Tree :D .
It has been shown over and over again that in case of cannabis and hemp polyploidy does not increase much or even doesn't do anything. Polyploidy may give great results in some crop but not all; having good weed out of a bag seed can also be explained by luck amongst other things ;) .
 

Only Ornamental

Spiritually inspired agnostic mad scientist
Veteran
since we are on the subject

has anybody come across a 'real double haploid'?

i think i might actually have one, but not sure ....

How comes?
Did you get your plant from a not so serious research lab?
In most cases you don't recognise a doubled haploid...

Did you know that there's usually no spontaneous formation of doubled haploids and they are produced in vitro and just sometimes work by crossing two less related species (which aren't known for cannabis)? Also, such a plant would be homozygous which in case of cannabis is no advantage and implies that doubled haploid cannabis should likely be weak and show signs of inbreeding depression. On the other hand, having a weak plant is by no means a sign for doubled haploids... most runts are just 'bad mojo' or a lack of breeding skills. On the other hand, a very good plant is not always a sign for GMO but can be (and in case of non-agricultural crop usually is) ascribed to 'good luck' or excellent breeding skills. ;)

I really don't get why people that often think they'd have some genetically altered plant just because it's not average...
 

Only Ornamental

Spiritually inspired agnostic mad scientist
Veteran
Naw, I'm just kidding :D . But seriously, why do you think it was triploid, just because it was good weed? C'mon buddy... :)
 

Only Ornamental

Spiritually inspired agnostic mad scientist
Veteran
Leaf patterns are determined by a spiralling growing apical meristem, auxin source and sink, and energy availability. Seems as if the pattern is self-propagating and once changed may remain changed. Many plants such as cannabis are known to change the pattern at one or another point in life.

Ever remarked that many cannabis varieties first grow with an opposite (decussate) leaf pattern and once flowering switch to alternate; does that mean they loose half of their chromosomes? Certainly not!
 

pinkus

Well-known member
Veteran
Thanks again. The person who still believes he has polyploidy has been trying to breed for this. I told him it was just one of the possible expressions of the genotype and seems to be transient in most plants I've observed. Am I filling his Idea Bag with more manure?
 

Granger2

Active member
Veteran
Naw, I'm just kidding :D . But seriously, why do you think it was triploid, just because it was good weed? C'mon buddy... :)
Only Ornamental,
I don't. I just asked if anyone knew or had an opinion. All I know is that in the Plant Kingdom there are monocots [grasses] and dicots [pretty much everything else]. This seedling had 3 cotyledons. Not 2 and some little something or other. All 3 were of equal size and color. Puzzled me then, and still does. I don't know if it was a bit better smoke than its sister because it was grown in the sun, and its sister got little UV in a greenhouse or if it was genetic. Maybe because it got dry between waterings during the Summer. Or maybe it was a polyploid. Don't know. -granger
 

Only Ornamental

Spiritually inspired agnostic mad scientist
Veteran
Maybe half of the 'tricots' I've seen had equally sized cotyledons. BTW there are also the so called angiosperms with again a different cotyledon 'pattern' like pines with about 6 to 8 whorled 'needles'.
 

jayjayfrank

Member
Veteran
i ask about what a double haploid cannabis plant would look like because from what i have read i may have one

sure, ya, whorled phylloytaxy, ok. three branchs at each nodes, got it. not what im after.

sure, three cotyledons when seed sprouted, got that too, the first clue.

harvest, 9 weeks and shes over cooked, from something thats %50 nevilles haze(you would expect atleast 10weeks no?)

the kicker? smallest yielding plant i have ever seen, she flowers out to about 3 or 4 calyxs(!) and stops

the top half of the plant seems to be different than the bottom or maybe, the older growth 'flowers different' than the young newer growth.

i have grown a half dozen narrow leaf tropical varites at the same time in the same tent and nothing else was acting that way, twice now same result.

she might be a real double haploid(lucky me), only thing left to do to her would be S1 then would probably get rid of her...
 

Only Ornamental

Spiritually inspired agnostic mad scientist
Veteran
Ahhh, I see...
Maybe it's just a runt? If you did an S1 with a doubled haploid plant, the offspring would be a near perfect copy of the mom.
In crop growing, DH plants are usually only used to generate super homogeneous F1's (DH's are faster to obtain than IBL's but are basically the same); that means, keep her and do some F1 crosses (they should show a very strong hybrid vigour and be nothing like the mother ;) ). If it's truly a DH, you might be the only person with a real cannabis IBL (see that thread: https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=133356) :D !
 

pinkus

Well-known member
Veteran
yeah, three cotyledons stopped seeming so unique a long time ago, as has whorled phyllotaxi. I'd just assumed three cotyledons were analogous to conjoined twins.

Twins in one shell casing are I'm guessing maybe 1 in 150, but I know one cross I made had multiple people reporting back on twins. Again, I'm just guessing but just like certain human families are prone to fraternal twins I'd assumed certain lines of cannabis would be too.
 
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