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Thoughts on a new room design, input pls.

D

DaveTheNewbie

I have been growing for about 3 years in a traditional coco setup. For reasons best forgotten i had to rip it all up and throw it all away a while ago.

I am thinking of starting again. I am inspired by Heaths Tree Guides (Chiesel V3 and Critical Mass grows) and want to do something similar. I know that DHF says more plants = more yield, and im not saying he is wrong. I just wanna keep the plant count way down. Heath seems to get adequate yield on trees, so why cant i :) https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=181239 and i wont link the other thats on a different site.

I have a room thats 3.3m x 2.7m (10 x 8). There is a hole in the roof for the exhaust fan. I want a max of 3 600w lights in the room, and i will have to make a tent/cabinet of some sort for light leakage.

1) Given all that, what would YOU do?

2) I have asked vert questions regarding corner lights not surrounded by plants, and havent gotten an answer that satisfies me so I plan to surround each light with plants. https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?p=5034507

3) From my reading (I have done alot) I am thinking of 2 plants with 2-3 lights wedged inbetween the 2. I might go 4 plants with 2 screens and 2 plants per screen.

I am after opinions to open my eyes to other possibilities as much as anything.
 
D

DaveTheNewbie

oh, and whats a top strain available easily via seed that would rock in RDWC vert trees?
 
D

DaveTheNewbie

given what i found today on another site (yes i read alot) :

Heath Robinson said:
The first pics are of the tree grow using 3x600w this yielded 30.6 Oz from the plant on the left and 43.8 Oz from the plant on the right for a total of 74 Oz.

The second pics are of a separate grow using 2 x 600w surrounded by 8 Mr Nice Shit plants and a yield of approx 64 Oz.
Click to expand...

The shit seriously out performed the critical mass. The only difference i can see is that the CM grow had 2 trees with 3 lights in a light, plant, light, plant, light row. The Shit had 2 lights above each other surrounded by plants. Even heath seems to get much better results when plants are surrounded and there are no lights on the edges of the plants. I would rather get 64 oz out of 2 lights than 74 oz out of 3 lights. 1.51 gpw > 1.17 gpw.

So its gonna be 8 plants RDWC in an octogon (circle) around either 2 or 3 600w lights hung in a pillar.

Now all i really have to work out is spacing. What distances between the pots / plants given i have a circle with 2-3 600w lights in the middle.
 
D

DaveTheNewbie

As well as what are the distances fom the light to the plant in a vert setup, whats the optimal distance between globes in a column setup? Should they sit one right atop another or space a foot apart?
 
B

Briar Patch

Member
DaveTheNewbie said:
given what i found today on another site (yes i read alot) :



The shit seriously out performed the critical mass. The only difference i can see is that the CM grow had 2 trees with 3 lights in a light, plant, light, plant, light row. The Shit had 2 lights above each other surrounded by plants. Even heath seems to get much better results when plants are surrounded and there are no lights on the edges of the plants. I would rather get 64 oz out of 2 lights than 74 oz out of 3 lights. 1.51 gpw > 1.17 gpw.

So its gonna be 8 plants RDWC in an octogon (circle) around either 2 or 3 600w lights hung in a pillar.

Now all i really have to work out is spacing. What distances between the pots / plants given i have a circle with 2-3 600w lights in the middle.
Click to expand...

Just my .02. I see this alot with the GPW people talk about. I would much rather get an additional 10 oz's in a run than be able to say I got .34 more gpw with less light. The cost of the extra electric will not be more than the value of 10 ozs.
I use 1000w lights so not sure on 600's, but with 1000w you want the plants main stalk to be 2.5' from the bulb, so with 600's would be a little less I would think.
 
4

420ish

Active member
i kept mine in a 40 inch circle around a 600.best i did was 20 zips for a 600.i started with a 48 inch circle then 44 and then 40.i left too many sucker branches on also.if i start again i will only run 4 to 6 plants in a 40 inch circle.the 40 had much nicer denser nugs.
 
D

DaveTheNewbie

Briar Patch said:
Just my .02. I see this alot with the GPW people talk about. I would much rather get an additional 10 oz's in a run than be able to say I got .34 more gpw with less light. The cost of the extra electric will not be more than the value of 10 ozs.
Click to expand...

I get what your saying, i really do.
I want to cap my lights at 3 for reasons of my own.
Therefore i want to get the most i can from 3 lights, and thats where the GPW figure comes in for me.

420ish said:
i kept mine in a 40 inch circle around a 600.best i did was 20 zips for a 600.i started with a 48 inch circle then 44 and then 40.i left too many sucker branches on also.if i start again i will only run 4 to 6 plants in a 40 inch circle.the 40 had much nicer denser nugs.
Click to expand...

And thats the sort of answer i was after. 20 zips per 600 keeps me happy.


now i just have to work out verticle light spacing.
 
D

DaveTheNewbie

question : the 40 inches was diameter not radius right?
 
D

DaveTheNewbie

Plans

Plans

Ok so i have made some abritary numbers about size and drawn it up to see how it would look. No autocad here, just a pencil and ruler.

Assumptions :
- The grow room is 2m x 2m x 2m.
- Pots (inner containers) are 30cm diamter and 30 cm deep.
- Buckets (outer containers) are 40cm x 40cm x 40cm.
- The main res is 60cm x 60cm x 50 cm.
- The return flow is going to be half way, so 20cm up.
- There is a table keeping the pots 20cm off the floor to give height for gravity fed return flow.
- The return flow pipes will be as large as i can manage (bigger return pipe = lower flow rate = less suction of roots into return flow pipe).
- There will be 3 x 600w globes hung in a column.

Top View
picture.php


Side View
picture.php


This gives me :
- 60cm between the trunk of each plant.
- 80cm between the trunk of each plant and the light.
- 64 ltr per bucket (outer container) which will be half full with water, using 32 ltr.
- res holds 144 ltr max.
- the max plant height is 140cm.

I dont like my chances of finding containers of the exact size, but it gives me an idea of how things will fit.

I still need to work out :
- how to build a manifold to distribute even pressure to all plants on the feeders.
- what distance to set between globes.
 
Opus53

Opus53

Member
hi dave, no disrespect intended as im just thinking out loud from my past experiences, maybe a thought to use the medium method you have experience with (coco) and maybe plan the waterworks for later, anyways wish you the best with what you go with.

opus
 
D

DaveTheNewbie

Opus53 said:
hi dave, no disrespect intended as im just thinking out loud from my past experiences, maybe a thought to use the medium method you have experience with (coco) and maybe plan the waterworks for later, anyways wish you the best with what you go with.

opus
Click to expand...

very sensable idea.
i look at this as a hobby as well and like playing with new toys / styles / techniques. Thats why i want to play RDWC this time.
 
high life 45

high life 45

Seen your Member?
Veteran
As far as a manifold goes... Make all the feed lines the same length as the line that goes to the bucket that is furthest away from your pump. Any excess line can be coiled around your bucket or module. This will give you even feed between all of the plants.

Its a lengthy read but check out the PPK https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=138004
It will give you the same growth as RDWC with out the risks. Im building a 17 light room using this method. I have done MPBs, UCs, and Heaths flooded tube vert. I also have grown trees in Dirt, cooc, perlite and Diatomite. Im making the switch to PPK.
Heres a 1#+ tree I did in my last room.
 
D

DaveTheNewbie

PPK eh? Well i like a good read, thanks for the heads up!
And thats a very sexy tree :)

.... EDIT : wicking systems dont inspire me, too simple. I want something more "fun".
 
4

420ish

Active member
i started to build a system similar to yours but never ran it.i built mine as a ebb and flow copied off of k33ftr33z'grow tunnel 2010 thread in hydro section but vertical.from my expierence with my various size donuts,i built mine for 4 plants set so the plants center would be even spaced in a 40 inch diameter circle.check out the grow tunnel thread and his design for the ebb and flow system elevated for gravity return.when i grew 8 plants like you want to do,they choked each other out even running 2 600's stacked.i chopped that run 1 1/2 weeks early and still got 28 zips of high quality even though chopping at 61/2 weeks on a 8 week strain.8 plants that close together with a veg long enough to use all three bulbs stacked will definitely choke each other and lower yield alot.4 trees with 3 bulbs stacked and a nice stretchy strain seems better.i am no pro like alot of these guys but this is very similar to what i was doing the last year!good luck and be safe either way!i did use individual screens for 8 plants with a width of around 16 inches.i made eight pie shaped bases with 4 inch fencing for the screen.
 
T

TommyTwoColas

Member
Opus53 said:
hi dave, no disrespect intended as im just thinking out loud from my past experiences, maybe a thought to use the medium method you have experience with (coco) and maybe plan the waterworks for later, anyways wish you the best with what you go with.

opus
Click to expand...

You'd be well-suited to heed this advice.

If you wanna play in hydro, start with a drip/E&F (or whatever suits your fancy and doesn't require several hundred watts in additional equipment large pump running constantly, large chiller, etc.).

Regarding your "actual" question, I think you're gonna want to find a different light configuration - I'd be surprised if you get a very good ROI from that top light (plants won't get tall enough to fully utilize it).
 
G

Guest 88950

(3) 600's stacked..........^^^^get rid of one unless your are doing multiple levels or sativas that get 10' tall indoors.
 
D

DHF

I`m glad ta have Rav back around as the voice of reason cuz he speaks from first hand experience and hands on knowledge....and....

SSH is dead on as well cuz the plants won`t ever get that tall without growin into and chokin each other out sideways Dave....

Sorry I missed thisun but GF`s got me runnin round my fuckin cowpasture actin like I`m not retired and bustin my fat ass playin with tractors and plantin shit I`ll never eat cuz she don`t understand that veggies keep puttin out after yas pick em....I mean Hell.....I`llbe pickin peppers and maters till Sept....at least........Oh well....

Guess the local foodbank will appreciate for the homeless and shut in`s so what the hell....now......

Ebb and flow 5 gal buckets made me happy for over 5 yrs , but I grew increased plant numbers with smaller plants ftw....and Dave...

Those big plants take room to spread sideways way more than up unless yas got a good hybrid that`ll stretch ,so choose wellon yer bitches yas wanna run and hey.....

If it`s a hobby and yas got the time and cash it takes ta fuck up and learn from it , then dip your wick in hydro and jump head first by all means....but....

If you were disappointed and walked away from coco ,then get ready my friend cuz a fasthydro setup will kill yer bitches overnight and leave em in a mulched up mess layin on the floor....guaranteed...

Plenty folks here ta help ,but takes time ta get yer hydro on....bet on it....and....

For the record....Heath is the one that taught me increased plant numbers dictate yield with virtually lil to no vegtime as to where big plants take time to get big enough to flip em and get any decent results ,so it`s all in where your head`s at as far as production goes , so totally your decision on how long you wanna take for your plants to finish....and....

Good luck...DHF...:ying:.....
 
D

DaveTheNewbie

420ish said:
i started to build a system similar to yours but never ran it.i built mine as a ebb and flow copied off of k33ftr33z'grow tunnel 2010 thread in hydro section but vertical.from my expierence with my various size donuts,i built mine for 4 plants set so the plants center would be even spaced in a 40 inch diameter circle.check out the grow tunnel thread and his design for the ebb and flow system elevated for gravity return.when i grew 8 plants like you want to do,they choked each other out even running 2 600's stacked.i chopped that run 1 1/2 weeks early and still got 28 zips of high quality even though chopping at 61/2 weeks on a 8 week strain.8 plants that close together with a veg long enough to use all three bulbs stacked will definitely choke each other and lower yield alot.4 trees with 3 bulbs stacked and a nice stretchy strain seems better.i am no pro like alot of these guys but this is very similar to what i was doing the last year!good luck and be safe either way!i did use individual screens for 8 plants with a width of around 16 inches.i made eight pie shaped bases with 4 inch fencing for the screen.
Click to expand...

TommyTwoColas said:
You'd be well-suited to heed this advice.

If you wanna play in hydro, start with a drip/E&F (or whatever suits your fancy and doesn't require several hundred watts in additional equipment large pump running constantly, large chiller, etc.).

Regarding your "actual" question, I think you're gonna want to find a different light configuration - I'd be surprised if you get a very good ROI from that top light (plants won't get tall enough to fully utilize it).
Click to expand...

SuperSilverHaze said:
(3) 600's stacked..........^^^^get rid of one unless your are doing multiple levels or sativas that get 10' tall indoors.
Click to expand...

DHF said:
I`m glad ta have Rav back around as the voice of reason cuz he speaks from first hand experience and hands on knowledge....and....

SSH is dead on as well cuz the plants won`t ever get that tall without growin into and chokin each other out sideways Dave....

Sorry I missed thisun but GF`s got me runnin round my fuckin cowpasture actin like I`m not retired and bustin my fat ass playin with tractors and plantin shit I`ll never eat cuz she don`t understand that veggies keep puttin out after yas pick em....I mean Hell.....I`llbe pickin peppers and maters till Sept....at least........Oh well....

Guess the local foodbank will appreciate for the homeless and shut in`s so what the hell....now......

Ebb and flow 5 gal buckets made me happy for over 5 yrs , but I grew increased plant numbers with smaller plants ftw....and Dave...

Those big plants take room to spread sideways way more than up unless yas got a good hybrid that`ll stretch ,so choose wellon yer bitches yas wanna run and hey.....

If it`s a hobby and yas got the time and cash it takes ta fuck up and learn from it , then dip your wick in hydro and jump head first by all means....but....

If you were disappointed and walked away from coco ,then get ready my friend cuz a fasthydro setup will kill yer bitches overnight and leave em in a mulched up mess layin on the floor....guaranteed...

Plenty folks here ta help ,but takes time ta get yer hydro on....bet on it....and....

For the record....Heath is the one that taught me increased plant numbers dictate yield with virtually lil to no vegtime as to where big plants take time to get big enough to flip em and get any decent results ,so it`s all in where your head`s at as far as production goes , so totally your decision on how long you wanna take for your plants to finish....and....

Good luck...DHF...:ying:.....
Click to expand...

ok now i feel that im getting some very good (and consistent) advice, even if it is all negative.

The result : use coco, use only 2 stacked lights, use only 4 plants, use something stretchy.

Coco doesmt excite me (like wicking) but the other 3 are the sort of advice i really was hoping for. Awesome thanks guys. Most of the strains around here are very indica styled, altho I have had my eyes on MNS Mango Haze for years, now might be the time :)

And confirmed 40 inch diamter also.
 
D

DaveTheNewbie

The more i think about it the more i like the idea of 4 plants. I only chose 8 cause thats what Heath did with his MNS Shit grow, and i was modelling on that a bit. The other advantage of 4 plants is that there is room to bring them closer together for vegging (400w MH) then move them out to a 40 inch diameter as they get larger.

Im still thinking i like the idea of hydroton with a mini sump/res at the bottom of each pot and a massive flow going thru the pots. This allows me to control the water and therefore the root zone.

Where i live its desert conditions, very hot during summer and very cold during winter. Heating / cooling the water is a big bonus there. When the ambient temp is over 100 there is only so much fans and air flow can do. and when its almost cold enough to freeze water you still need a decent air flow for the plants and the odour removal.

Can someone explain why i cant use 3 x 600w lights if they are close to each other vertically? Is there a rule / law / formula for the distance between them?
 
G

Guest 88950

3 x 600w stacked would be more light/lumens than you need.

the plant can only handle so much light and then you will get light bleaching of the leaves. not sure how this effects the plant but your bigger problem will be exhausting all the heat.

more lights = more heat = more air exchange = bigger fans , filter using more electric.

if you feel you will eventually do hydro the do as DHF suggested and jump head first and learn as ya go.

in Heaths big tree thread he did what you are wanting to do........he had (5) 600's in an X pattern and only 3 were on at a time.
 
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