Gunter.Grund's First Indoor Growroom @ 16KW

The purpose of this thread is to subject my current project to your criticism and advice. I have a lot of respect for you indoor cats. This is my first post as Gunter.Grund, and my first indoor grow but not my first post on ICM. Starting a thread always helps me sort out the details of a new project and input from the community here has always been very important to me.

This is my first shot at flowering indoors. Outdoors, I have done pretty well the last three years. In some way, each year has been a huge improvement on the last. I hope I can carry that over to growing indoors.

I have always run a 4000 watt (more or less) cloning and veg operation for the outdoor and light dep scene, with 2000w going to a couple of hoods on light movers that swept over an entire garage- the rest are T5s-...I have employed minimal ventilation , no co2, etc. Just bare bones.

This is different. I am making a serious investment in a serious room.

The Space: 24x24' garage. We will hang the lights over 4.5'x4.5' footprints in 18x24 of the space leaving room for two 2' wide walkways... I have not yet decided if I will build a wall to seperate the space. Might be useful to have a 6x24 of seperate utility space to work with that is not dependent on lighting cycles (also more efficient for CO2).

Construction has been a bit sluggish, but we're almost done. its just a matter of hanging the rails that will support the lights and connect some of the ducting between flanges that have been installed. The garage had open rafters, but I put in a cieling at 8'2" of 1" rigid insulation.

Here is one thing I am unsure of. Better to put in that cieling or leave it open to the roof? I closed it off to reduce the room volume for CO2 efficiency... I guess I am trading off the ease of cooling in a high cieling room (like a warehouse) vs being able to use C02.

Right now I have a big sealed room. Seems like the right way to go.. I am curious to know what folks think. Is it too big a room for CO2? Should I run the room on fresh air first before trying it sealed?

Room consists of
16x 1000w Hortilux HPS in Magnum XXXL 8"; hoods.
16x Galaxy digital ballasts.
1x CAP MLC24x lighting controller
4x 8" Max Fans 675 CFM each handling 4 lights on a seperate straight line of ducting
2x Vortex 12" on 1140CFM 2x Pro125 Carbon filters set up for recirc/scrubbing in sealed mode, standby ducting for fresh air mode. CFM of fans and filters being the same was stressed to me... not sure how important this is. Thoughts?
1x Vortex 10" with HEPA filter for intake in fresh air mode, isolated for emergency venting in sealed mode
4x 18"; Air king wall mounted Oscillators

I am thinking of adding some additional passive intakes... The first run is going to be a bit of a mash-up. I'll be doing different mediums, ranging from soil to RDWC. Soil only because my first round of plants was started in soil. I think I would like to settle on a coco flood and drain paradigm and I have a bunch of questions abput the best way to work that...

I have been advised that a 20% hydroton 80% coco mix would work best for flood and drain. I also have seen a coco based medium for Royal Gold called Tupur that has oyster shells in the mix. Saw it side by side with another coco medium and it definitely looked better. Not hard science, but makes me consider it.

also it seems like a huge amount of work to maintain 8 seperate reservoirs under each 4x8 table... I am thinking about running a single central rez that floods 2-4 tray zones in rotation. I'd love to hear any thoughts on this subject... I guess that's enough for my first post. I'll shoot some photos and post em up soon.

Sounds like a hell of a set-up! Any pics of the progress so far?

Very rough still. Should be hanging lights by Wednesday.

Keep up the good work! Thanks for sharing...

I'm in..

two foot walkway is a little narrow but will do. i usually go for 3 ft if its possible. closing the ceiling was the right thing to do- no need to incorporate uninsulated space into the grow space. maximum reflectibility is always key when u build. looks like your headed in the right direction. 4.5x4.5 is fine with those reflectors. im running galaxys as well -600s though.

if you are exchanging air and its not a sealed room with a/c its almost counter productive to run co2 in a room where your going to be venting. unless your running heat from a propane burner where it serves dual pourpose. in that way your less inclined to care if you are venting co2 since its not from a bottled source that becomes a pain in the ass to fill up and costly. venting will serve you well. id make sure i have many filters and anything else that will favor you to keep u safe from nosey noses and such. then again if your legal then its the thieves that may be your biggest concern with smell.

an extra room always comes in handy to do anything that might arise. youll always finding yourself needing access to water and such. clean-up,mixing of soil or nutes,anything.

i see u have a 10 inch for active intake? do u have a match for exhaust? you have 24x24 which is 4608 with an 8 ft ceiling height. youll need a few big inlines or dayton 2400 cfm blower to vent. you can run sealed if you have you plan on running a a/c split system. venting is what i do but smell is always the factor. it comes down to money-can u afford an a/c system? set-up,troubleshoot,whos gonna service it with the plants in there if it doesnt work at first or need fixing? theres pros and cons to both set-ups
with fans they hardly ever breakdown but its the smell getting vented outside thats always a concern.

if you are good with soil-stay with soil. with the money invested in this set-up,i wouldnt be experimenting for now. youll find yourself way to busy trying to juggle to many things. coco is like hydro. i water with nutes every single time. but theres a slight learning curve at first cause it will show p and k problems for people who havent been used to this medium. promix on the other hand will hold alot of the nutrients and your balance will be different with nute water,water,nute. too much guessing thats why i switched to coco.nute every time and i dont have to remember who had what last. all get nutes every time. at 50 percent strength.

also, id build an airlock over the entrance door to keep pests from coming in when u enter the space as well. id beef up security everywhere you can. since its an outside structure,youll find pests will find there way in when you enter. air seal all cracks and revices and spread ditomaceous earth along the wall to kill critters that may get into the room. i always bug bomb b4 i set up any rooms. anything like bales of promix sitting outside,will invite bugs inside if not washed off. always leave your shoes at the door and have another pair only for inside. i havent had any bug issues in years because of the things i mentioned.

Badass. Keep on truckin.

-Funk

Thanks, eyes. I feel like I have figured out a few things since my last post. Some of the things you touch on are still on my mind.

I have a 12” collars at each end of the room which are ducted to vents at the top of the gable. By connecting ducting from my 12”Vortex/ProFilter to these collars they turn into exhausts. 1140X2 CFM. Just over two minutes to exchange. That would be paired with the 10” Vortex with HEPA filter intake and some passive intake to be named later. You think I should add more active intake?

Those concerns really only apply to running an unsealed room with air exchange. And I have decided to run a sealed room. My understanding is that this room would have NO intake/exhaust. I'd be scrubbing/recirculating through my 12” Vortexes, sealing the 12” duct collars at each end and adding CO2 and 60,000BTU of Excel Air (type) cooling. Prolly 30K now and 30K before summer arrives.

We moved the ballasts and master lighting controller into the attic and will be installing a fire suppression system up there as well if I can figure something adequate and affordable out.. Extra venting capacity for up there too. So big up there... I could run an A-Frame veg down the middle of it. Its also fully insulated up there....

Also I have pretty much decided to go with a coco/perlite blend. Maybe 80/20? Or a premixed perlite-heavy product called Tupur... but in the end mixing it myself will prolly be the way I go. I'm good with soil... vegging and outside, but I am also up to the challenge of a complete paradigm shift. I have a tray or two worth of soil plants that will get done, but I will be using it as control for comparison with other paradigms. 4 reservoirs means 4 opportunities to change some of the parameters.

I think I will be running Aqua Flakes and the whole H&G lineup in one Res while in a another substituting some elements for products that have proven to work for me. My work in soil renders great yields and superior quality consistently and I would like to see what happens when I borrow the coco-safe elements and hack them into the H&G schedule. I like H&G support. They seem to answer questions promptly and publicly. The answers seem clear and direct from what I can tell.

The idea of rocking one with Age Old Grow and homemade teas as well... maybe in the second round. I think this round will be based on H&G's program. I have always loved the Dutch and have spent a lot of time in Holland, so I'll give them a shot... Haven;t heard much shittalk @ H&G. Always open to new information though if anyone has a gripe to share. I have also heard good things about Cutting Edge... anybody have an opinion?

H&G says that you shouldn;t use airstones in a flood and drain table as the bursting of bubbles removes nutrients from solution and that the table recirculation provides all the required dissolved O2 for roots.

I'm thinking 3Gallon smart pots in flood and drain tables with 115 gallon reservoirs. Not sure how many per tray yet... The soil plants are getting pretty big but the coco plants just came out of the aerocloner. Perhaps my cleanest round of cloning to date.

The interior dimensions of the space are closer to 23.5 feet wide, leaving me with 7 total feet of extra space for walkways. The plan is to build 4'x16' racks out of lumber with casters attached. Reservoirs will be on plywood platforms with casters as well. I was thinking that these could be pushed aside as needed to make wider aisles as we move about the room to work. Trellising would be connected to each of these frames as well. I was thinking that one long frame for two 4x8 trays deep... but oh shit, they are actually 53 inches wide (4'x8'ID)... so that will give me bout 5'4” to work with...

This strikes me as one of those things that sounds easy and straightforward, but once you get the trays in there and get them filled with water and plants and try rolling shit around like a laundry basket, its not so easy. The floor has a 1/2” score down the center of it. Will casters get caught up on these?

They make some burly casters. Thanks for the notes, eye. They have me crunching out the problems they pose. Keep em coming.

Done for the day. There will be more pics soon.

Also, we've been thinking of how to do an airlock/cleanroom entryway. Everybody gets a pair of crocks and set of coveralls for use inside the room. No hippies or pets allowed in the room. (I kid. If you self-identify as a hippie and I have offended you... rly?" No space to spare inside if I want room to slide the reservoirs out..

You've got yourself a fun project DoubleG.
&
I HIGHLY suggest Tupur. The mix is simple, but extremely fine tuned: coco, perlite, and oyster shells. I had a couple testers as experiments and they performed like champions. On a flood and drain I think you could push numbers people won't want to believe.

No cookie dough.

I got on the phone with the guys at Royal Gold and asked them about Tupur. It would seem that the main differrence between Tupur and other products from RG is that the Tupur has ZERO nourishment for the plants and LOTS of perlite. I have been mixing Atami coco with perlite to pot my clones and I'll use Tupur in at least two beds/one rez to see what the deal is.

I guess your experiment went well, huh Proph? What kind of difference did u get between the mediums? What was it up against? It seems like a PITA to get tupur up here so I am going to have to head down to the bay for it or order whole pallettes.

I have a big day ahead of me. U should come visit sometime, UP.

might hack a bag of Tupur tonight. try to ascertain the ratio of coco, perlite and oyster shells. Its prolly 4x the price to buy it by the bag. Its not like its some blend of 21 herbs and spices like a soil mix... should be easy to float off the perlite. Oyster shells are heavy. Enough agitation in water and it should seperate from the coco. Like on Gold Rush.

How often did u feed Tupur vs other mediu s u used in your test? What were the other mediums?

Yeah man loooking good. cant wait for more pics. ill read through your thread again and see if i have any other advice to give. you seem like you got it pretty well locked up. the airlock can be done with 2xs and plastic with a stick on tarp zipper for your open and close in and our. or why not just frame it out and use a traditional door. could have a fan kick on when you open that lock to blow out for a quick second while your entering. also could hang a few sticky yellow traps in the lock. also could place a timed mist neem oil or something safe. many possibilities. i think a door in a door would be cool for extra security as well.

id try the intake without the fan and the hepa only at first. i usually try to match or pair my intakes and exhausts. can also use an air curtain(im not sure what they call it specifically,thats what im calling it) to extend across the room. if you had 2 intakes coud have one high and one low perpindicular to each other.

if you could afford sealed then the smell would be contained and youd probably sleep better at night. yes, then youd run those filters on recirculate. i wouldnt redisgn for it but cap the intakes off as you stated that way you can take advantage of the winter air if need be when the seasons change without worrying bout a/cs running or freezing up.

the fire suppression sounds smart- thats even something i havent done yet. most of the digis are sealed and i had one pop and smoke but not catch fire. although i dont use anything above 600 so it may be a different story for 1000s. still good idea you have there.

ive used alot of ferts but not h and g. i can tell you i run coco and it will show a p anf k defieciency if you are running it the first time without small supplementation of it. i was using gh organic line but switched to flora nova(cause the bottle is getting old) and i also use a little o-5-3 kelp and molasses. sometimes ill switch the 053 for molasses.cant hurt to use perlite if thats what u want to try. nothing wrong with experimenting.

im running galaxys as well. are those the select a watts or the originals? which bulbs are u running with them? ive had good luck with ultra sun hps(not the enchanced digital ones they make) also sunmasters. dont runa hortilux in there. will have alot or acoustic res. and probably break apart. i run all glass with digis in my reflectors. with mags, i wouldnt run glass cause id feel safer at 60 hz without a bulb breaking. the new horilux are suppose to be better. let us know what you think of the profilters when u run em.

if its real cookies hook up some cuts or a tissue sample lol... nice start.

the cookie room to end all rooms! whats up partner....

i like how the room can be switched back and forth from sealed to "fresh air mode"..

if i was doing 16 lights i would want everything to be as uniform and automated as possible....your plan with the rez might work perhaps but if you are doing perpetual each tray might need different feed....i know guys who have 40kw warehouses and each light has its own rez so thats 40 reservoirs lol....maybe not the most efficient but probably the most basic and straightforward. im sure they spend alot of time filling up reservoirs over there....

it would be nice to setup some automatic refil on a float valve or something like that..

jesus. 40 rezes is ridiculous. how often does he clean em? You'd have to do FIVE every day to be on an 8 day rotation. fuck that shit.

I'm going to rock 4 rezes for the 8 trays. clean one every two days. thinking of having a 5th rez filling with RO and ready to swap out for a week-old one. Not sure If I have the space or if I will be using 55 gallon drums for temp RO storage. I am installing on demand hot water, so I could technically have an RO rez outside that is always filling (I have 2 RO100's that I am going to upgrade to RO200s.. I'd have to insulate the fuck out of it, but that's easy and maybe use the on demand system to warm it up a bit on the way in.

Should be easy to fill two trays/four lights at a time in a perpetual rotation. I'll have to figure out a way to clean proper between reloads.

Hanging lights tomorrow!

Still need to get a CO2 system... anybody have a favorite 30CFH or better generator? Controller?

Good coco doesn't need perlite.

Canna coco (straight)
Flood and drain 2x times a day (lights on)
H&G full line up (run at half strength [everything])
Change your res once a week and have a float valve to auto-top it off (top off plain water)
110 gallon res for each 4'x8'
Doesn't matter what kind of pot so long as liquid can go inside
Keep light out of your res
If using co2 and air pumps the high co2 in the atmosphere will give your ph a false readout that is lower
Use a very large and very good dehumidifier (look at Santa Fe's)
When you truly seal your room you will need a 5 ton ac and need to account for amperage.

K.I.S.S.

Good luck, its been done a lot of times, so don't feel alone.

I can;t give you rep yet, but the karma will come back around. thanks for the concise advice. every morsel of it pertinent to my immediate needs.

The idea of the perlite, according to royal gold phone support, is to be able to feed more often. But I am not married to it. Been potting my babies in 3.5" square pots of a 75% coco/25%perlite blend. But I can stop. Perlite is messy and annoying. Happy to let it go if

Been using Atami coco. I will do the due diligence but I am curious if you consider this on par with the Canna product. If not, howso?

The space works a lot better with 4 rezes. If I change the rez every 4 days is this feasible? I could feed the two trays in an ABBA change BAAB so no tray always gets the first fresh feed after a rez change, but considering we're flooding twoce a day over 4 days... shouldn't really matter. If I am doing this should I compensate with a slightly higher ppm?

Apart from that, at half strength, will I find some strains that like it a bit higher?

I think 60K BTU is the same as 5 tons. I was planning on getting two Fujitsu mini splits units @ 30,700BTU. The price is right and instalation is pretty simple and fast. I have a friend who can charge it for me when its installed. I have been around these units and they are very quiet and have worked for friends. Open to other suggestions. Lay em on me.

Was going to go for a water cooled CO2 generator, but it would seem that 5 tons of A/C covers that need. One less cooling system is fine with me. On that note, will I need a chiller for my rezes? Or again will the A/C cover all of my cooling needs?

Hearing good things about the CAP Gen2... How about the Greenair air cooled jointz? Do I need to get a fuzzy logic controller or are one of the simpler units like a PPM-4 sufficient?

Thanks again for the help. I AM doing the due diligence on all these questions but the input here is extremely helpful in focusing me or sometimes unfocusing me on some dumb fantasy or failure to grasp that I am experiencing.